$800 Cartridge Shootout and Upgrade Path

i have a denon L59 turn table, what needle/cartridge will work best

Hey Artar!

Glad to have you back. Interesting purchase, I have heard great things about the Moerch arm. My X-mas was uneventful, I worked. I went to Detroit the week before and a record store that I used to go to in Ann Arbor and thought long gone was actually bought by someone else. I found some LP's of course, Furtwangler playing Wagner, Henze on DG and Wergo. Some Beethoven quartets etc etc. I spent a buncha money on records while there. I didn't miss leaving the 5 degree weather to a return to 40 degree warmth.

On the 25th I fly to Colorado. I just got the tix and will contact the guys tonight (Chris and Thom at Teres and Galibier respectively) and start to lay down the plan. I'm definitely up for the Schroeder Model 2. Not sure what table yet. If a Galibier, the cheapest model with the pvc platter. If the Teres then probably the 255. Either way I can't lose!

As for the preamp. I'm not unhappy with the Pass, I'm just feeling the audiofool money pinch and have been desirious of upgrading my sources. I have a Golden Tube Audio preamp that is coming back from Parts Connexion after being modded. If it sounds as sweet as I think it will then it might make sense for me to sell the Pass and put the money into a CD player. Or just to pay for the table and tonearm.
The Pass is an expensive unit but definitely a world class pre. If it still blows away the GTA then I will sell the other though it won't bring nearly as much money. I also want to send my Sonic Frontiers phono pre to Parts Connexion for modding and this all ain't cheap!

This high end is killing me financially. I need a higher paying job.

Artar, glad that you're back and rested. After Denver, in March, I'm heading out to New York and Philadelphia for some serious art tourism. Unfortunately I'll doubt I'll get much rest but I'll get refueled with inspiration and probably find a few LP's out there.

Let us know when you get your gear. I'm sure we're all curious as to what you think.
Chris

Thanks for the link, Artar.

Hi Holly,

That should have been VH Audio!

Here is the URL:

http://www.vhaudio.com/

CHris - Don´t feel bad if you want to sell your PASS preamp. I sold mine (X3 in this case) that did not meet my expectations considering other preamps I had at hand two months back. Now I live happy with a PLC Sonic Euphoria Passive Preamp.

Fernando

Artar - Thank you for your comments about my future purchases! I have spoken (via email!) with Doug about the ZYX cartridges; he has also recommended the Denon 103R. And now I seem to have added the Shelter 501 into the mix! I will make up my mind at some point. I think I will probably stick with the Denon cartridge as it seems to be very well respected and liked by many, and I will be able to upgrade next year, or....Plus I can spend more on the rest of the set up. As far as "cheap & cheerful" goes, I wasn't referring to the Teres turntable. It alone takes up most of my original budget, but my original budget flew out the window several weeks ago! :-~

The OL Encounter tonearm is way more than I can spend; I will stay with the OL Silver (hopefully the earlier version so I can apply Twl's HiFi tweak.) As far as the phono stage goes, I have looked into the Wright products and I am impressed by them. I like the Cary's, too, but they seem to be a lot more expensive. I'm still keeping an eye out for used phono stages, too. Well, however I go, I need to make sure they will work with MC cartridges, as that seems to be the way I am headed, so I'll have to get a step-up transformer, too.

What are the "VA Cables?" Sorry - I did a google search and couldn't find these. Does any one use and like the Homegrown Audio cables? HGA cables I'm pretty new at this and probably should do some more research. I mean, I don't know what the difference is between "balanced" cables and those that are, what, unbalanced?!? :-o

Glad you were able to make all your decisions, Artar. Like you, retirement isn't all that far off for me, but I really want to have a good audio system set up before then. I may not be able to travel after I retire (if I can even retire) but I sure will be able to stay home and listen to music!

Holly

Hey Chris!

Happy New Year!

So, how’s it going? Was “Santa” good to you this year?

I’m sorry you passed out from holding your breath waiting for my analog pronouncements. (You know the Technics direct drive turntable is one hot ticket, if you don’t mind acoustic feedback and a rather mechanical sound, especially to massed strings!)

Well, I hope your Grand Prix rack is coming through for you. It’s out of my league, but most of high-end audio is out of my league.

Are you sure you want to sell your Pass Labs X1? It’s a good preamp and you would be hard pressed to buy something as good, at least as solid-state devices go. The X1 acts as a buffer of sorts, making it possible for you to use long interconnects between the preamp and amp, if the need should ever arise. Also I like the dynamics that a good preamp can give you as well as excellent soundstaging. However, driving your amp directly from a CD player should give you the best transparency and detail. But your Pass X1 is, as you have said, a very neutral performer. Perhaps you can wait to up grade your CD player until after buying your turntable and tonearm?

The Schroeder Model 2 and a Galibier should make a very good combination. Which Galibier do you plan to buy and when will you purchase the combination? Keep us posted. It will be nice to know your impressions of both the Galibier and Teres.

As for Thomas Scheu, there’s some speculation that he committed suicide by gunshot, but I have not read any corroborating evidence. If true, that would be very sad indeed. Other than this bit of news, I have no other information about his untimely death, a tragedy for sure.

I picked up some records too over the holidays. I found a 15-alumn set of Mozart’s 41 symphonies conducted by Karl Bohm and played by the Berlin Philharmonic. All LPs are absolutely mint; they look as if they have never been played. What a find for me. With shipping, it cost me about $90.

And yes, I have been listening to music, CDs to be exact, but that’s not the reason for my absence! I’m back now, a little refreshed by my short vacation. So watch out now…: > )

Holly (Oakiris),

Don’t worry about misspelling my name. I am the world’s worst speller so it does not offend me in the least when I see others trip up now and again.

If you want analog advice, TWL knows the most of anyone in this thread. But I can give you my opinions for what it’s worth.

As for a phono cartridge, I purchased a Shure V15VxMR as my starter unit. From there I will go with either a Benz Micro L2 or a Shelter 501. If I choose the Shelter, I will have to purchase another Morch arm wand, maybe a Blue Dot, which has an effective mass of 14 grams.

As a side note, I am still waiting for my turntable and tonearm, which I ordered about a month ago. I hope it arrives soon.

I congratulate you on your Teres 160 purchase with the Origin Live Silver tonearm. While I would be a little hesitant to describe this setup as cheap, it’s certainly cheerful, as it were. The only improvement would be to move up to an Origin Live Encounter or a Morch DP-6, but such a move would only give you a very small gain indeed.

I agree with TWL about the Denon recommendation. A lot of people have the cartridge and love it. The Shelter is reported to be a little better according to TWL, but at a much higher price. The Denon will certainly get you admitted to analog heaven, at least onto the second of third rung of Jacob’s Ladder. And when TWL tells you he’s been around the block and is not blowing smoke, you can take those comments to the bank.

If you would like more information about the ZYX cartridge, contact Dougdeacon. He is a proponent of that cartridge and can tell you all about its strengths and weaknesses, if any. It’s a very neutral cartridge from what I have heard when compared to something like the Denon. The ZYX is also great with classical music, but again, Doug can tell you a lot more.

For a small fee, you can buy the K&K kit pre-built so you don’t have to fool around with soldering, and the like. The EAR is also a nice unit, but many who buy that phono stage get it upgraded. The good news about the upgrade is that it doesn’t void the warranty! Another popular tubed phono stage is from Wright Sound Company.

For interconnects you might try Element Cables or VA Audio.

Dsiggia,

I will say more about my buying process a little later. Right now I am getting caught up with replies. I can say this that I was all over the map in regards to making my final decision. There are too many choices nowadays, which only makes choosing more difficult rather than easier.

As I said above, the cartridge I chose was the Shure V15. From there I will either go with the Shelter 501 or the Benz Micro L2. I haven’t made up my mind yet. The Shure will then become a backup cartridge.

I’ve noticed that you have updated you system since we last talked. I now see a Supartek Cortese gracing your audio rack, you devil! How do you like it? Wow, it must be really awesome! Tell us about your new purchase so we can all be envious.

"I visited Chris at Teres Audio yesterday and I have actually decided on the Teres 160 turntable with an Origin Live Silver tonearm. Not sure about the cartridge yet - I may have to get "cheap & cheerful" until I can afford something better. We'll see!"

Congratulations, Brilliant choices, you will never look back at these two choices. Dollar for dollar these 2 are very hard to beat, IMHO.

yes as twl says the 103 will work great with the OL arm, but why not wait a little longer till you can afford the 501 and get the 501, because based on your outstanding judgement you will eventually get one anyway, and in the end save some cash and not look back.
good luck
Ron

Dsiggia - I'm looking forward to the time - hopefully this month - when I can actually begin buying the equipment on my wish list! I'm still toying with the idea of getting the ZYX R100H cartridge, too, but know I should be practical and get the Denon cartridge instead.

I am indeed looking for a phono stage for my system. I have considered the EAR 834, as well as a Cary, the K & K kit (but I don't think I have the skills to build it :-( ) and various others, but haven't made a decision as yet. I seem to prefer the tube sound - wish they weren't so expensive! I certainly don't mind buying used from a trusted Audiogon seller. I'll have to see what is available when I actually have the $$$ in hand!

And then there are the IC cables I need. And no rich uncles to be had in my family!

Hi Artar. Welcome back to the thread and congrats on your top notch purchase - ya done well! Did you start & finish with this combination? What cartridge did you choose?

Oakiris, I own a Teres 160, modded OL Silver with a 103r & TWL is spot on with his recommendation. If you're ok with a used OL Silver, you could place a want ad & save about $300 off list price. Try to find an OL Silver MkI because it's easier to mod than the MkII. Have you thought about a phono stage for a 103r yet? I hear an EAR 834 is very good for the price & you can find these used on the gon for about $750+. I have used a Tom Evans - Microgroove setup at .2mV & 1000 ohms that was ok for the cost. You can find one of these for about $500 used on the gon; one is currently listed .2mV & 100 ohms which could be a better fit then 1000 ohms for the 103r.

Good Luck

O.K. then - I believe I'll be purchasing the 103R sometime this month!

Hi Guys!

I own a Denon 103r cartridge bought at Audiocubes2.com, service was fantastic and the cartridge was delivered to my office just in time and at the agreed pricing.

I don´t feel the urgent need to go for something more, eventhough I would like to have one of Raul´s top top carts, this is sounding really nice - agreed with TWL on the mark.

Fernando

Artar - Congratulations for your analog purchase, you will surely enjoy it.

Oakiris, Audiocubes is the only one that I know of with the DL103R right now. It is really worth the extra money over the regular DL103. I found the regular DL103 to be a bit coarse in the top end, and didn't track as well as the DL103R. The DL103R was very smooth in the top end, tracked well, and sounded super for the money. It's a shockingly good with the OL Silver and the HiFi mod. Nobody would ever think it was an under $300 cartridge from the sound of it.

twl - Thank you for the "thumbs up" for my choices; I'm sure upgraditis will set in at some point down the line, but from what I have read and heard, I will be happy with this combo for quite some time. Chris of Teres also suggested that I use your mod for the OL Silver tonearm! Now I have to find the Denon 103R cartridge. I have found the cartridge at AudioCubes. Is there any other place that sells them new for the US market?

Oakiris, a "cheap and cheerful" setup for that rig could easily be a Denon DL103R and a HiFi tonearm mod. That is a really nice combination on the Teres/OL Silver rig, and I have used it myself for almost a year before moving to my present Shelter 501.

There are a number of users of this combo here on the Audiogon forum, and it is very satisfying for only a small sum of money. Total of about $275, as long as your phono stage can handle the low 0.27mv output of the DL103R.

You can read about this in my review of the DL103R in the product review section, and also some other users' info in the archives. The OL Silver will perform much better with this cartridge when my HiFi mod is utilized. This can be read about in the "Strange Tonearm Tweak" thread in the analog archives, and the thread describes the DIY process for you to make yourself very easily and cheaply. If you have questions, you may email me about it when I return from CES. I am the inventor of this mod, and can answer any of your questions about it. I'm sure that the many HiFi mod users on this forum will be happy to tell you how it improved their sound quality for practically no money.

With the Teres 160 and an OL Silver, it would be nearly impossible to get a better sound for your money than to use a DL103R and a HiFi mod on the arm. I've been around the block with this, and I'm not blowing smoke.

Artar - sorry about misspelling your name several times.
:-o

Glad to know you are still in the universe. The Asian tsunami is indeed a major catastrophe - the death toll is over 125,000 now. I agree that it certainly puts in perspective the search for audio nirvana in the face of such a tragedy.

You have built yourself a very nice system; I hope your enjoyment of audio returns. What cartridge did you end up getting? (I mean, that WAS the focus of this thread, right?!? :-) I know, it went rather far beyond the cartridge.)

I visited Chris at Teres Audio yesterday and I have actually decided on the Teres 160 turntable with an Origin Live Silver tonearm. Not sure about the cartridge yet - I may have to get "cheap & cheerful" until I can afford something better. We'll see!

Hello all!

First let me say a Merry Christmas, a bit late I know, and a Happy New Year!

Well, several things have kept me away from the keyboard and this thread. The first was my workload, which had been extreme leading up to Christmas. The second was a bit of an emotional let down, so to speak, after I had made both my analog decisions and analog purchases. (Yes indeedy, I bought a bunch of stuff!). The third was Thomas Scheu’s death, which cast a long shadow over everything analog. And finally, I was unexpectedly saddened by the shocking events surrounding the Tsunami disaster in Southwest Asia. Only now do I feel like writing, and then I don’t quite have the same level of enthusiasm as before. But in a week or two I am sure all of that will change.

Oakiris,

So you started out with three grand and blew by that number! Well, welcome to the big spenders club! What do you mean by being realistic? Just go for it, right? If you like the Teres 255 buy it. It’s one hell-of-a turntable, and that’s for sure. If you can’t afford the Teres, wait until you can. Settling for less will only cost you more money in the long run. If you have a turntable, then go for what you really want instead of accepting something that will soon be replaced.

What did I buy? Well I bought this:

Eurolab Premier MKII Turntable
Morech DP-6 Tonearm with a Precision Red-dot Arm Tube
Nelson Pass Xono Phono Stage
Billy Bags Equipment Rack

I will write more about this later. I am running out of time tonight to go into any more details.

Cheers!

You mean, you think, that it's possible that Artar is actually "Listening to Music" instead of hanging out here on the audiothreads!!! For shame! He's the one that got us into this mess in the first place. I'm still wrangling with work to take the time off to go to Denver to hear the Galibier and Teres tables. After a year of research I have decided that one of those tables is gonna be mine. At this point it looks like I'll be waiting on a Schroeder Model 2 tonearm to match with it. Then I will sit around listening to music and ignoring the black hole of the internet that sucks up so much of my time never to be seen again.....

Maybe Atar is so sunk into audio bliss with his new system he has forgotten all about Audiogon and the fact that lots of people are waiting in suspense for his final decision. I came very late to this thread, but sure would like to know what he ended up with - if only to help me with my own decisions. :-D

Holly

Yeah Artar! What happened? I have passed out several times holding my breath while waiting for your announcement. Unless yr scared to tell us that you got a twin pack of Technics direct drives and are now MC Artar!

I have been slaving to pay off the Grand Prix Audio rack. I'm still not playing with tweaks on it because everything sounds so right. My only hope for upgrading my digital front end at this point would be selling my preamp(Pass Labs X1 - a very neutral performer) and getting something that could drive the amp directly. I have a Golden Tube Audio pre out to Parts Connexion for modification and when it gets back, somebody's got to go. I'm also getting money put aside for my turntable purchase. I am hoping that Thom from Galibier can get a Schroeder Model 2 from Frank at CES so I can hear it when I go to Colorado but we'll see. Frank's got a long lag time for his arms......I'm definitely leaning towards that arm.

It was sad news about Thomas Scheu, him being sort of the father figure for these tables we're all interested in. It's nice to see that his business partner is going to continue on with some developments they had in the works and keep the company going.

I was just in Detroit visiting family and bought a ton of records there. My budget for analog has subsumed all other purchase thoughts for now. The only thing being that I plan is to upgrade my Sonic Frontiers phono stage by sending it to Parts Connexion next week......

Now if Artar would remove the suspense by the New Year we'll have a happy one........

Atar - still waiting to find out what you finally purchased. Like you, I started with a $3000 budget and have gone over it by about $3000! Now I need to get realistic and find out what I can actually afford - as in, make do with now and upgrade later. Still, the Teres 255 is at the top of my "must have" list.

This thread has been extremely informative. I have so very much to learn....

Yes, sad news indeed. I hadn't heard about it until I just read your thread, Artar1.

He was a true innovator, and will be missed.

Thomas Scheu has died ! What tragic news!

I was shocked to learn of this very sad event. I send my best wishes and condolences to Scheu's family and friends. He will be missed.

Hello Chris,
The difference between the armwands - both are CLD, the old one with carbon fiber on the outside, the newer on features Pertinax as the outer "shell" - is directly attributable to the much better inherent damping of Pertinax and the fact that eddycurrent losses(result of wiring running in close proximity to the conductive armwand) have been nearly eliminated. In the newer version, the inner layer consists of a fairly thick walled, small inner diameter teflon tube(dielectric constant close to that of air...).
The slightly "lively" character of the carbon fiber arm tube might suit some tastes or systems better but I´d still say it´s a resonance artefact that I can do without. As usual, ymmv ;-)

Cheers,

Frank

Hey Chris,

I'm here. I wanted to make sure the purchase went through before blabbing about it on the net. I will write more.

Enjoy.

Artar? Come back here buddy! You can't taunt me with your purchase then not fess up to what it is! Come on man!

Frank,

I was wondering what the sonic differences between the two materials would be? I am very interested in the Model 2. I had read that it might be better on rock music which is 85% of what I listen to. Would one or other of the materials sound better in this context?

Thanks,
Chris

Hi Chris,
Thanks for your kind words(previous post). Fwiw, the No.2 arm is also available with a Pertinax(resin impregnated paper) based, three layer CLD armwand. Looks more like wood and has none of the carbon fiber sonic fingerprint.

A great weekend to this bunch,

Frank

Artar,

You're right about all the things that you say about the rack, I am hearing the decay after the notes and this makes the totality of the listening experience that much more profound. I tend to just feel like I am listening to music, and though Alvin Lloyd of GPA told me to experiment with tweaks, I have been too busy listening to music. For once I don't feel like I need to eke out a little more of this or that with cones, sinks etc. Everything just sounds more natural. And yes, I meant four LARGE. I got the Apex footers with it and add on tax etc and you're over three and damn near four. Which has slowed down my turntable plans somewhat. Perhaps I will look into the Schroeder Model 2 which is the cheaper version of his arm, available only in carbon fiber armwand. However this experience has made me feel that having a good rack is essential, so my digital upgrade plans have been put on hold.....analog upgrade first, digital later......

So for yr "gimme, gimme, gimme" post, what happened to "next spring" for your purchase? Unless you went for the Teres but somehow I feel that if you made such a leap that perhaps you found a deal on something out of the box of what we'd been discussing......the real question for this thread is 'What $800 cartridge did you get? The Shelter? Inquiring minds want to know...."

By the way, I posted this elsewhere but you should check this out, the craziest system I ever saw!:

King of Audio!

We love to anthropomorphise things don't we? If you use the menu on the page look at the "Electric Baron and the Decca Brothers" link.

Chris

Chris,

I’m glad to hear of your restful Thanksgiving break. Listening to records and reading thought-provoking material is always a great pastime!

Thanks for the Rockport link. That’s some turntable! It's well above anything I will ever be able to afford, that's for sure.

Before spending the big bucks, you could always try a speed controller with your current turntable to see if it will make any difference.

I think you have your heart set on a Schroder, so you should simply get it. You most likely won’t be happy with anything else. I think it's clear that both Chris and Thom feel that the Schroder is the best match for their respective turntables. And now that we know the "string" holding up the Schroder armtube is very strong, there’s nothing to worry about, right? Just don’t leave any scissors lying around near your table when small children come to visit. Snip! Snip!

>>One of the things about perpetual upgrading is that it enables the audio guys to continue to design better equipment because there is that flow of capital into the market. <<

I will have to remember that one. Wow! My excuse for buying new gear is simply, “ I deserver it!” But who is this “I” am referring to and what is this state of deserving? That implies a really big rationalization: I am assuming that the universe does, indeed, have a moral design in which I am the perpetual recipient of good tidings, especially anything analog related. Then there’s plain ol’ “G’me! G”me! That usually works, for it reduces life to its biological-drive-state level. There’s nothing better than plain old id-cathexsis! In other words, if it feels good, do it!

With your new rack, I would anticipate blacker backgrounds, better focus, increased clarity, and better-defined transients with less sonic smearing due to equipment vibrations. Musical notes should stand out in greater relief, and there might even be better spatial relationships within the soundstage. But maybe I am going to far?

Did you say “four large” as in $4,000, or $400? It’s just an extra zero, I know, but what a zero!

And now for some news…

I bought a turntable, tonearm, cartridge, and phono stage since my last post. Any guess what I bought?

To be continued…

Artar,

Glad to hear from you. I had an okay Thanksgiving. I listened to records all day long. Caught up on some magazine reading (no, not Stereophile, Artforum actually). Didn't check this thread or else I would of answered sooner.
I have been emailing with Thom Mackris from Galibier and he sent me this fascinating link concerning the value of the turntable in the whole equation of table/arm/cartridge:

link

The first half of the page has the most worthwhile info and after that it gets into much detail that may or may not be worth the extra reading. This validates one reason why I am interested in getting a new table. My Oracle is a Mk III (with the Brooks Berdan mod) and the motor in the newer ones is far superior and if you read some of the page I posted above, a superior table and speed delivery is half the game. So I do think that another table would provide me with better playback.

As for tonearms, I have decided against the Graham and am back thinking about the Schroeder again. Perhaps the Triplanar. I'll know more when I go to Colorado. Both Chris from Teres and Thom from Galibier have said that I can stop by and see and hear their tables. I'm excited and one of the things that I love about audio is how you can get such personal service from people. It's all about the love of the music. Or so it's said.

One of the things about perpetual upgrading is that it enables the audio guys to continue to design better equipment because there is that flow of capital into the market. Since we are a Capitalistic nation(and not a democratic one as we like to think) with wealth to burn to satisfy our desires, I figure that high-end audio is as valid a merry-go-round as anything else. My desire to get off now is due to the upcoming change in my economic priorities. But I do appreciate the flow that allows these guys a market for their wares.

As for the Grand Prix Audio Monaco stand, I made my choice because I needed an amp stand and I was looking at Zoethecus but saw the GPA amp stand at my local audio shop. I bought it based on research on the web. When I heard what a difference it made, I demo'ed the full rack. It didn't have quite as large an effect but my equipment did sound much better on it, more musical. Since it was already in my house and I really liked not just the sound but the looks, I impulsively bought it. I have a studio apartment and this rack has really opened up the room. Plus the length of the shelves makes cable routing much easier. The idea of having it torn back down, going back to my old rack and trying out other racks seemed too much to me. I know, trying out different things is the best methodology but other racks are rigid and I had a rigid rack and it wasn't working for me. Considering the various manufacturers that use GPA racks at shows, the word of mouth on the street and my own experience, it didn't seem a foolish decision. Though it was an expensive one since the full rack is four large. I do have to say that it is very pleasing to the eye but I would not have laid out that much money if I didn't feel that I was getting performance out of it. I'm happy and down the road I might try a competing manufacturers recently debuted dedicated turntable stand. After I make my turntable purchase of course.

Frank,

Thanks for weighing in on this thread. I appreciate your interest in making sure that we don't have any misconceptions about your product and the data you've provided has helped to keep us focused on the performance angle and not because of perceived design issues. I'm still very interested in purchasing one of your arms though I have to say that as the dollar plummets to the depths with the Euro delivering swift kicks all the way down, it might become a financial impossibility.

Chris

Imagine how bad the state of our addic... er, hobby if there were fewer responses. It is not so important how badly we listen, nor how weakly we argue, nor even how poorly we understand. Rather it is how vigorous, how honest and how helpful we are. I would only interject this far along, that we know better than to think that there could ever be a "shootout" where analog is. I love my Grado and my Clear Audio.

Should it break, I will replace it for free(it happened once during shipping and the only other incident involved a parrot...)

I have no more problems with parrots. The two cats took of them!

Doug (Schroeder admirer with no liklihood of buying any time soon, unfortunately!)

Hi to everyone,
It seems there are a few questions regarding the durability of the thread in my arms and then some regarding the perceived "fragility" in day to day use.
The thread is made out of an Aramid type material, comprised of several hundred individual fibres for a thread of 0.3mm diameter. It has a tensile strength of nearly 50pounds and is extremely resistant against abrasives and most chemicals. It doesn´t deteriorate when being subjected to normal levels of UV light. Should it break, I will replace it for free(it happened once during shipping and the only other incident involved a parrot...)
A finger lift can easily be added to the headshell mounting plate(they do vibrate, no matter what)
The arm has no armwand locking feature because it doesn´t need one normally. Once you move the armwand too far past the runout groove, it isn´t falling from the "edge of the world" ;-) ; aka the lift bank, since the counterweight will then touch the arm´s base(behind the bearing, right hand side), preventing it from moving or being moved any further. Properly adjusted, the bearing block(rotate it) will serve as a "stopper".
A locking mechanism could be added if that makes you feel safer(personally, I don`t like the looks of it...).

A great weekend to ya all,

Frank(manufacturer with no intention to solicit sales...)

Doug,

Your statement below probably best summarizes my main reservations about buying a Schroder other than price of course:

"It does have a certain delicacy that takes getting used to. There's no finger lift or armtube lock! It's not an arm for the fumble-fingered or careless. The arm itself is robust enough but cantilevers are not. Since the arm is not locked when sitting on the armrest, I'd keep the stylus guard on at all times. That's about the only risk I could see."

What you have written here is more to what I was trying to say earlier. Thanks for the clarification.

Hey Chris,

I hope you had a great Thanksgiving!

It’s been awhile since I have written anything in regards to this thread. It could be burnout or it could be health issues. Well, whatever the case, I’m back.

I am glad to hear that you have gotten something out of the posts that have been made here; I know I have. A little over a month ago all I had was 20-year-old experience with turntables, which was hopelessly out of date. Sure, I have read a number of Stereophile analog reviews, especially Michael Fremer’s Analog Corner, but that’s no substitution for extended direct experience with the best turntables currently being made. Wouldn’t it be great if we could have any turntable we desired setup in our listening room for comparison with any number of other potential candidates? Such a situation would make turntable hunting far easier than the purely theoretical approach with which I am currently saddled.

>>I am going back to college to work towards my Doctorate in Philosophy. I have a BA in Liberal Arts (Philosophy and Mathematics) and have decided to leave software alone and get back to things I really love, reading books and discussing them with others. I have written on art and music in the past and would like to do so in a more academic setting.<<

Your future college and career goals sound great to me. At one time I had aspirations to become a clinical psychologist. It was a grand and noble idea, but one that was too difficult for me to bring into fruition. The profession itself is quite demanding; requiring one to possess nearly endless empathy and having it at the ready was more than I could handle. It was all too easy for me to be utterly caught up with the difficulties of others for which there seems to be no end. Then there was the long course of study and the even longer internship requirement of 3,000 clinical hours after the Ph.D. matriculation, another major stumbling block indeed. So I played it safe by pursuing a wonderful, but now rapidly vanishing career in technical writing.

I loved your reference to tonearm philosophy, for that’s exactly what it is! It’s really a question of deciding whose tonearm design appeals to you the most and then purchasing that “audio experiment,” as it were, for it truly is an experiment, a work in process. When you buy a Schroder tonearm, for example, you are buying a work of art, the living aspiration of a gifted craftsman, which can transform your system into a cutting-edge facsimile of the real thing. But then there’s Triplanar, and what about Graham Engineering or SME? I don’t have that kind of money so the answer will always be a fanciful one.

I don’t know whether a Schroder arm is any more difficult than any of the other high-end tonearms on the market, but one thing is certain, any arm that you set up yourself will be more demanding than using the integrated arm that comes with something like a Techniques SL1200. If you have the proper tools and a good set of instructions, I am sure you will be able to determine proper cartridge overhang, tracking force, VTA, and azimuth. My only concern is the reliability of the “thread” used in the Schroder arm. What is its tensile strength, what is it made of, and how does it affect curing? These are the types of questions that seem to pose themselves naturally. First-hand knowledge, of course, should answer all of them.

Your alluding to “getting off the merry-go-round” is a good one, something I’m trying to do, but at a less expensive level. I think you realize by now that the drumbeat of perpetual upgrading keeps high-end audio manufacturers and dealers alike very happy (and should I also say very profitable) while the rest of us struggle to scrounge up the capital to pay for ever spiraling high-end audio costs. I can’t think of any other industry, besides medicine, in which prices are constantly rising much faster than inflation. After my system is complete, I won’t be buying any new hardware unless a component breaks and it can’t be fixed.

By the way, how much is the Grand Prix Audio Monaco stand? Did you ever consider Billy Bags? What about something from Salamander? Is that stuff too “low-Fi?”

And I have another question: what is wrong with your Oracle turntable? Isn’t it a fairly decent deck? Do you think getting another table will make a big enough difference to justify the cost? Maybe another way of putting it might be this: have you identified a weakness with your current table that you know you can ameliorated by the purchase of another turntable? If not, your purchase may simply sound different but not better.

Good luck to you on your Colorado trip.

Enjoy!

Glad you've found nirvana.

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

Maybe someday, you'll hear the Sistrum, and understand why I said what I did.

Hi Chris!

Nice post. I've been under the weather so to speak. And I have been doing a lot of thinking about my priorities in regards to vinyl. Tomorrow, I will post some of my thoughts and respond to what you have written.

Artar1

Well, this thread has been a little dead but since we left off with the rack scenario I figured that I would report my findings. I have been living with the Grand Prix Audio Monaco stand for 6 days now and couldn't be happier. I would say that the general statements made about squishy bits and turntables should, like most general statements, be qualified specificly. Perhaps some have had negative experiences in these areas but I think it's different as applied to the Grand Prix rack.

I've had a rigid Michael Green rack for a long time. In ordre to isolate my Oracle turntable(sitting on a Bright Star Big Rock) from floor vibrations that made it skip with footfalls, I built a wood platform for the rack where the 20 inches underneath the rack was suspended. This was the only way to get back to playing vinyl. It worked but was a less than elegant solution to the creaky floorboard problem.

Enter the Grand Prix Audio rack. With the rack set up on Apex footers, I have no skipping problems. This is with the Oracle set directly on the top shelf of the stand. When I put the table on the Bright Star Big Rock, it was isolated even further. Music has never sounded so good. The backgrounds are jet black, music has far more 3 dimensional depth and music rocks when it rocks, and swings when it swings. I have played The Stooges Funhouse to make sure that the blistering roar of guitar on "TV Eye" is everything that it should be, I have played Bach's Cello Suites by Starker, to make sure that the impressive nature of that intimate sound is preserved. The entire system is sounding natural and at ease. The Miles Davis Quintet box set has been been playing quite a bit because of the impressive nature of the sound I am getting. Yo La Tengo, Butthole Surfers, The Cows, John Zorn, Budapest and Emerson String Quartets playing Beethoven, Fritz Wunderlich singing, John Fahey strumming guitar, it's all been marvelous.

With my other rack I had Black Diamond Cones and Pucks and Townsend Seismic Sinks and Bright Star Little Rocks and brass cones etc etc and all I had done was tweak so hard for detail (with my all tube system)that when I got a new SS preamp(Pass X1), it sounded brittle and hard. Put the equipment on the GPA stand and the Pass sounds detailed and full. I was over tweaking to make up for the lack of transparency in other components. Now all those components sound better than they ever have. Has it fixed them? No, my CD player is long in the tooth and definitely due for an upgrade. I'm planning on getting a new turntable. The real deal here is that I feel for the first time I am hearing what my components sound like, and more, what they are capable of. And I have done it without a bajillion $$$ in tweaks.

This has changed my views on upgrades. I figured I'd get around to getting a new rack when I had my system "done". Now I'm realizing that I need to be able to hear what my system sounds like so I can contemplate what the next steps would be.

Now, about those squishy bits, they're rated for the weight each shelf is going to be holding and this puts them at a certain compression. This means that I'm not going to be overdamping, I'm gonna be damping, to quote Goldilocks again, "Just right." Read the GPA web site, it will explain the technical nature of the multiple ways that these stands deal with airborne AND floorborne vibrations better than I. As for high-mass tables. Well, I sent an email to GPA and was pleasantly surprised to get a phone call from Alvin Lloyd. We discussed how his stands worked and what my concerns are. He has many customers that use these stands with non-suspended tables and I felt confident at the end of our talk that he had addressed my concerns. Alvin told me to try my table without the Bright Star and then try it with, he never seemed dogmatic about how I should try to use the stand and never told me to throw away my tweaks but invited me to try them out to find what sounds best to me. I appreciated this because, as we've discussed above, the only person who can truly know what sounds best is ourselves.

Having this here has opened up the entire room. I live in a tiny studio so this is nice. But now the platform is gone and I can get to the windows to open them up. This stand just looks beautiful.

The end result being that I'm more than a GPA demo'er, I am now a proud owner. Sorry Twl, I know that the Sistrum Stands are great but my equipment sounded so good on this that there was no way I was letting it go.

I want to thank Tim at Experience Audio for coming over on his day off to bring and set-up the rack because that was when it was convenient for me. He never pushed the rack on me, I came to GPA on my own and after being blown away by the amp stand, was hungry for more.

To get back to analog, I have contacted both Thom Mackris and Chris Brady in Colorado and confirmed availability for the next couple of months. I am going to buy tickets this weekend and will be flying out sometime (except during CES) to see my pal in Colorado and to check out some awesome turntables.

As for the $800 Cartridge? Well, Experience Audio is also a Shelter dealer so I'll neatly end where we began, with the Shelter 501 on the table or more precisely, on the arm.

Thanks to Twl, Artar1, DougDeacon and the rest who have made this thread a real journey for me. Soon to end up in Audio Nirvana.......

Chris

Jim, I haven't owned a WT turntable myself, but typically a manufacturer puts feet on the TT that are "the best that they found under the $2 price point that they are willing to spend on feet". These "footie" feet may very well have been the best sounding ones that WT tried for under a couple of dollars. But, that doesn't necessarily mean that they will outperform all other feet on that table. It only means that they will outperform all other very low cost feet, in the opinion of the manufacturer. It is quite possible, and even probable, that a high quality and probably much more expensive set of properly designed "feet" would significantly kick the butt of those stock feet on the WT. It happens on nearly every other TT made, so I expect it would be the same in your case.

When manufacturers are designing to a price-point, things like feet really take a back seat,and get the lowest amount of consideration and budget.

Fernando- Thanks, but my question is about the apparent paradox of the WT table having soft rubber feet when the conventional wisdom is to have unsuspended tables sitting on a hard surface. Other unsuspended tables typically have hard or even spiked feet.

Regards
Jim

Chris, I think that you'll like the GPA rack. It is a very good one. There are really only 2 racks in that upper level category, and those are GPA and Sistrum. Our approach is totally different to the solution of the vibration issue. GPA tries to stop the vibrations from going up from the floor, and Sistrum tries to provide an exit path for the vibrations to transfer to ground. Of course, we feel that our solution is the better one. In either case, you'll have a very good performing rack. It's sort of like deciding between a Walker and a Rockport. You're not going to have anything bad, whichever one you decide upon. Your particular application will determine the outcome.

Jim - I saw some days back a review of the Ginko stands. Those are new items AFAIK and not heard them personnaly, but looks like a promising design and sensible priced.

Fernando

Twl,

Thanks for the number, I will call you after I have spent my alloted 4 days with the GPA rack this coming weekend to share my impressions and see where I think about going from there. I appreciate this offer.

Frank,
Thanks for weighing in on this one. To be honest I have never installed my own tonearm, I have my audio dealer do it and do cartridge installation as well. This will be my first experience with a tonearm that I plan to be totally responsible for so when I'd read some people's comments that your arms might be more difficult to set up(which I know have to be taken with a grain of salt) it makes me think that perhaps I should get something that might be easier to use. Not so much to install but for all the settings, like a Graham. And of course, I only have what I read to go on, I've never seen or heard one of your tonearms.
On the other hand it sounds like your arms are truly wonderful sounding and are very highly regarded and this appeals to my sense to get a "final" set-up. My current improvements to my system are to make the stretch to get off the audio merry-go round so I can focus my attentions elsewhere. I imagine that your arms are worth every penny but I don't see the $ going up anytime soon so I doubt there will be a price decrease in the works.

Doug - I can be fumblefingers and careless and though I would never "pull a Fremer" and try to install a $4500 cartridge after 3 margaritas(!) I have whacked the cantilever off a Blue Point Special reaching for the tonearm with my right hand while my left was brushing a record at the same time.......

The Schroeder DPS was what I was thinking of and I still am....thanks for the reality check guys, it keeps me thinking.....

As for the squishie bits controversy, we'll see what happens this weekend. Since the sorbothane footers used in GPA racks are designed for specific weights and for compression I'll guess I'll hear it if it's overdamped. But what I'm hearing now with this amp stand is amazing and it was previously sitting on a Michael Green Amp stand with BDR cones and pucks and this Grand Prix Audio stand has blown that combo so far out of the water it ain't funny......

I'm a bit confused about putting an unsuspended table on a soft surface. My Well Tempered Classic (unsuspended) has a polyurethane rubber type of "footie" over the feet and the factory has told me that it sounds best this way. I've always presumed this was designed into the table to wick away vibrations that are generated by the table (as opposed to preventing external vibration from getting to the table).

I was thinking about making a base out of wood with a space in it to fill it with shot/sand to wick away vibrations caused by the table/cartridge, but maybe I still need the rubber footies??

Perhaps someone could shed some light?

BTW- Frank Schroder- I've read a number of your posts with great interest. Although I don't comprehend all of what you've contributed, it's fascinating. Thanks.

Regards
Jim

Guys, thanks for your very nice comments about my posts.

I just call 'em as I see 'em.

Even though I work for an audio company, I always try to maintain my perspective as an audiophile and a prospective buyer/user of equipment.

Chris(Letch), my phone number at Starsound is 1-800-307-0728. I'd be happy to discuss anything audio related with you, anytime you want to call. Even if it is not Starsound related, or having anything to do with buying anything. People call me all the time to discuss their systems, and what I might think of the possible changes they are making, or what things to consider.

Also, anyone else reading this that would like to talk to me on the phone is invited to call anytime too. I'm sure that some people reading this have already spoken with me on the phone. Alot of people call me about analog stuff, and we don't even sell any TT gear(although I have a couple of designs in the file cabinet drawer). I probably also get about 10 emails a day about analog related stuff, from the Audiogon members.

I actually like discussing this stuff.

And you know how it goes. Eventually, everybody needs some points, or a rack, or something. So we get our chance to get our stuff auditioned. Over 90% of the time, when someone listens to our stuff, they keep it. All we ever ask for is a fair chance in the listening environment. Most of our sales go to buyers who already have something we make, and they know how good it is. We are always looking for a chance to let someone new hear how our products can reveal more of the sound of the components that they already own. We may not have made your components, but we make the stuff that helps your components sound the best they can. It is like an equipment upgrade, but you keep the same equipment. You just hear more out of it.

Much like Goldilocks, I'm looking for "just right".

Good analogy. Aren't we all?!

Paul and I are currently reviewing two ZYX cartridges, the Airy2 and Airy3, with a third model possibly to follow. Without spilling the beans I can say that in one sonic particular we'd both occasionally prefer something in between, at least for certain records.

Paul said he'd like a 2.7, I'd prefer a 2.8! ;-)

Seriously enough, this small difference shows that individual preferences do matter. Oddly, if we'd tried to predict in advance which direction each of us would lean, we both would have predicted the opposite direction from the one I just joked about. Try as we all do to communicate our musical and sonic impressions in words, there's no substitute for hearing.

The Schroeder is a well-respected arm. If you have your heart set on it, you might as well get it. But it does look a little temperamental and perhaps somewhat difficult to install.

The Reference is certainly no more difficult to install than any other arm. You have to fine tune the adjustments of course, as with any good arm, but once set up it looked perfectly stable to me. I didn't perceive anything "tempermental" about it.

It does have a certain delicacy that takes getting used to. There's no finger lift or armtube lock! It's not an arm for the fumble-fingered or careless. The arm itself is robust enough but cantilevers are not. Since the arm is not locked when sitting on the armrest, I'd keep the stylus guard on at all times. That's about the only risk I could see.

From my trial and error experimentation I've come to the same conclusion as TWL and Dougdeacon. Unsuspended turntables don't sound good with spongy isolation beneath them. Now that doesn't mean you can't use some form of vibration damping or isolation - just don't use spongy stuff.

I would love to build a seismic sink (aka sand box), but my situation doesn't allow it. Here's what I improvised, and it works great for me:

http://home.att.net/~ptmconsulting/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-664443.html

TT on a maple butcher block, with DIY rollerblocks underneath. My kids can run through the room without skipping the needle. And the sound is quick and detailed and musical.

Enjoy,
Bob

Dear Artar1,
"The Schroeder is a well-respected arm. If you have your heart set on it, you might as well get it. But it does look a little temperamental and perhaps somewhat difficult to install. For me the price is a major barrier."
Just to give me some insight as to how people perceive my products: What gives you the feeling that my arms(or where you referring to the Reference only)are difficult to install?
It takes just two holes(M4-tapped, if you´re using a metal or acrylic board, 3,5-4mm woodscrew, if your tt has a wooden mounting board). The other model are no challenge either(21-25mm hole, one or three mounting screws required). No elongated holes or any need to get underneath the turntable.
As for the set up, Chris Brady can attest to the ease of set up once you´ve under stood how the arms work(no rocket science, hehe). BTW, one of the reasons I discontinued the No.1 arm is that it did require more time to get the set up spot on.
Pricing, yes, this gives me a headache too, but the weak $ is something that is beyond my influence(scary if I had any ;-)). I promise that as soon as the $ goes up again the prices will be adjusted...
None of the above is to say that one shouldn´t go for what one feels most comfortable with(sound, operation, looks).
Whichever arm you´re choosing, if you put it on a Teres or a Galibier, you´ve come alot closer to the "final" recordplayer.

Best,

Frank Schröder

Artar,

I agree with yr assessment of Twl's posts. I have learned a lot on this thread alone! The quote of his you posted above is exactly it, I have been made to feel that information has been offered and that I am on the right track to try it myself and see how it works in my own situation, no dogmatism, no ego. As we have mentioned before this is the basis of a true dialectic. So rare these days......

I am going back to college to work towards my Doctorate in Philosophy. I have a BA in Liberal Arts(Philosophy and Mathematics) and have decided to leave software alone and get back to things I really love, reading books and discussing them with others. I have written on art and music in the past and would like to do so in a more academic setting. So I nail down what I can with my system and then starve for a few years. I have thousands of records and CD's to keep me busy when things are lean. I'm sure I will continue to collect what I can here and there but the financial emphasis will be on getting through the program, knock out the dissertation and teach and write. Hopefully to contribute something lasting along the way.
We'll see, now if I can just decide on a tonearm......oh the travails of tonearm philosophy!, which way to go???.....

Chris

Twl,

Perhaps you might consider doing a column for one of the audio magazines. I learn so much more from your posts here than from my subscriptions to TAS and Stereophile. Once I finish setting up my system, I plan to cancel my subscription to both.

“Nobody can tell you what is "right for you," except you. We can only make suggestions based on what our past experiences have been, and we don't have your system and listening environment here at our homes.”

This statement is perhaps the most enlightened audio observation I have ever seen. Nearly all the audio dealers I have met over the past 30 years and most of the people who write for the audio press are so opinionated, arrogant, argumentative, and hackneyed in their stance on what sounds good and on what equipment others should buy and own it goes way beyond disheartening. It’s nice to know that I have the freedom to choose what’s right for me and my tastes in music without having to worry about what others might think or how the self-appointed audio critics might react to my audio selections. It’s really refreshing to read your posts, Twl; it makes being an audiophile really fun and exciting.