Not my point Doc.
I remain, |
Sean, Dan A's CAST system averts the issue to a large degree by converting what is mainly a voltage transmission line into a current transmission line. The thinking is running a low voltage through a cable is prone to interaction/interference while running current through a wire is much less susceptible. Mr. A. also has had several wire vendors design wire just for his systems.
A little off the mark (eh?) Wadia is another company that states in its manual (paraphrase)... "It is not necessary to buy expensive power cables... since we have designed the noise reduction circuitry into the product..." Being a Wadia owner I can say this, power cables can still help, but the unit is far less sensitive to their use. Every so often I put the AC cord that shipped with the unit back in-line and definitely when I am considering a replacement. This statement does prove true. I have heard more degradation with “fancy” cables than without on this particular unit.
IMO, the $7500 used cable is worth it if you can afford it (responsibly) and can actually hear an improvement in your system that justifies the cost to you. I personally feel cable prices are sporting price tags that seem unreasonable, but I don’t pay the bills at those companies to see if the cost is justified or if I am buying someone's next Porsche. We have a choice. There is competition. Am I going to be the 1st in line for them, no. Am I open to the concept, yes? Do I hope trickle down happens in a couple of years to a price I see as reasonable, YES! |
Yes, blind faith is not at all amenable to measurement. |
Lmb- I think almost everyone agrees with you that we have not or cannot measure everything.
Sincerely, I remain |
Well, science doesn't understand everything, or claim to know everything. Those who say if I can’t measure it, it doesn’t exist are walking on thin ice. You do the best you can with the tools you have. There have been many, many instances in history where science has been proven wrong in its assessments (and those who follow and agree). My point earlier in this thread, which was then lambasted, is that I think science has yet devise a measurement to answer the question of what is the difference. So the Pros shake their heads in disbelief because there is no measurable proof of the claim. Attributes such as 6dB of more signal gain (lower noise floor), and high common mode rejection ratios for differential inputs (near elimination of common noise) have a solid mathematical base.
A number of manufacturers use Cardas, Kimber, and various other brands in their designs. I think the best question is, during the design process what cables (and equipment) were used to complete the design. To answer the $7500 question is different for every audiophile. Hence the previous comment on trusting your ears. There are some extremely good cables for a tenth to a hundredth of $7500, but if we could and we heard a difference, would we?
Now back to your pander… |
Mark: I'd add Dunlavy to Sean's list. (He even admits his own cables don't sound any better than anybody else's!) But I suspect most component manufacturers would see no value in trying to unconvince audiophiles of something they're convinced of. Besides, the proof is there that most (note that I said most) gear doesn't require specialized cables--if you want to accept that proof. But as we know, many audiophiles do not (as is their right). I don't see what else science could do to convince them. |
By default components shouldn't be a cable-sencitive at all but there again plays the marketing side.
Some of the manufacturers will advice you to use only audiophile grade cables and some are fine with pro-grade or even RadioShack. |
Mark, there are manufacturers that already make the claim of their components NOT being cable sensitive i.e. all cables sound and measure the same within the confines of their system. The first that come to mind are Krell ( with their CAST system )and Van Alstine. Sean
> |
Whoa! This-here thread got away from me in a hurry. I don't know whether to apologize or thank you, so I'll do both.
Being an "outsider" again with old but somewhat fresh eyes for the jargon, I've got two observations to make that some of you may not see because you've kept up with the literature since I dropped out.
First, the WONDERFUL spoof on fishing line actually hooked me. That's really scary. It means somewhere in the dark recesses of my slowly withering pea-brain, cable claims from a decade ago are still lodged and producing a Pavlovian response in my subconscious. Driving to work, I found myself actually wondering if $3,000 fishing line might work -- I'm not kidding! -- even while my conscious, semi-professional self was screaming "If you think that ridiculous thought one more time, I'm driving this car off the next bridge!"
Second, why hasn't the industry put its efforts into figuring out "why" one piece of wire works better than another? I mean, designing a really great amp, tuner, speaker or CD player takes a bit of effort and some genuine smarts. Hasn't anyone wanted to design an active component or an ability within existing components that would give you exactly the same great sound as the most expensive cable using any conductor of electricity? It's got to be easier (and cheaper!) than buying and testing high-end cables until you find something that sort of works better than something else. This isn't rocket science folks (and even if it were, you can hire rocket scientists in Russia full-time these days for about $1200 a month each).
I would think that speaker and component manufacturers would be interested in being the first to claim their units didn't need fussy, expensive cables to sound great.
By the way, yes, yes, I do have about $600 (used) in speaker cables in my system. I'm not a complete Luddite, OK?
You all are the most intelligent, funny and sensible audiophiles (by and large) that I've ever encountered. Thank you for the great entertainment and information!
Respectfully,
Mark Hubbard |
Paul and Sean, I think your both right. A lot of the recordings today by the "factory" studios may indeed care less of the quality than the budget/ profit. The sound of these recordings is placed in history and will never be better than the least component used to create it.
To me the fact that the "Audiophile" labels exist and sound as good as they do is some sort of proof to that. If the master tape is good (often the case in older classic and jazz recordings) then the better equipment will show this quality. If the playback equipment is lesser however the final presentation will also be less.
I guess it depends on your source, if you listen to a lot of the newly recorded "music" from today's mass production studios than forget wire, just sit back and enjoy. If however you have a lot of "audiophile" labels, recorded as purely as possible, then I would recommend using the best possible equipment to take full advantage of the potential left by the studio.
This discussion of cables bores me as a topic, but draws me in with the hope that new audio lovers don't get led astray with wrongful thinking.
I too have auditioned over 40 cables, to claim there is no difference is simple naive and ill informed. This site deserved better.
J.D. |
Paul, sorry to ruin your day, but i'm going to respond to your post.
First of all, this is a forum open to all members and anybody can respond. Even if you, me or someone else doesn't like the person or what they have to say.
Secondly, you're question pertaining to the "golden age of stereo" was a somewhat rhetorical question. As such, i did not think that it was all inclusive to any other / all your comments or questions that you would make in this thread.
Third, it would be somewhat logical to assume that a recording engineer / studio using "ratty old cheap cables" might also be using "ratty old cheap components and speakers". As such, i may have incorrectly assumed that you were thinking in an exponential manner or following any form of logic. I appologize for giving you that much credit.
Fourth, the tone of your comments assumed that the mass majority of studios make recordings using cables of lesser quality. Your assumed stance from that point of view was that there is nothing to be gained by fancy wires when trying to reproduce the performance in your listening area. The fact that most studios use balanced lines throughout the entire ( or nearly entire ) equipment chain should show that they have in fact taken into consideration the importance of cables, minimizing their influence on the signal while trying to minimize the potential for degradation from sources such as rfi, emi, line loss, etc... This in itself contradicts your initial assumption.
Fifth, some of the vintage recordings that you find of higher than average quality were probably recorded in a simple format in analogue mode with minimal signal tampering taking place. As such, heavy amounts of EQ, compression, digital processing can make ANY recording sound worse, even those of today using high tech modes of operation. Comparing minimalist recordings done in a relative "purist" style to highly complex recordings done in a highly manipulative style would normally result in very different products, regardless of age or vintage.
Sixth, I'll be glad to disregard your less than articulate or specific posts that sometimes border on troll bait. Sincerely, your friend Sean
>
|
Are there hi-res cables? I think there are cables with a high resolution factor. On Chesky's sytem test disk, there is one track called the high resolution test. Shakers in the background are supposed to sound differently with every shake performed.
With my HMS cables and the Valhalla, there was no problem detecting this minute sound differences.
Then I went to another cable, which was not cheap ($850) but now it was almost impossible to detect the differences in detail.
Not only was the high-resolution gone, but also the mid- range purity had kind of suffered, the other cable sounded somewhat somber and dark, veiled if you like.
Mr. Strassner of HMS was a big doubter himself, believing that every cable with reasonable performance will deliver, but one day he was given the chance to listen to an excellent cable in an excellent system. That was the day of revelation, and according to him, he set out, with the help of his technical expertise, to see what was causing these differences.
His whole design ideas are created around the knowledge of the impact of the magnetic field and interference of EMI/RFI and some other discoveries regarding the dielectric. The impact on frequency responses is only one of many factors.
Basically one of his biggest inventions is to keep the magnetic forces, which are created in every electric conductor, inside of the cable. He does this with ferrite blocks made out of a special alloy.
Well, he has his ideas, Nordost with the Valhalla have their secrets, but in the right system, both cables make an incredible difference. |
Tekunda: Your analogy to digital printing assumes that there is such a thing as a "high-res" cable. But there isn't. Cables can differ in their impact on frequency response, but except at the extremes that impact falls below the known thresholds of human detection. Interference can be a problem, though I wonder how common it really is. And bad connections make a big difference, although quality of connections is not what the cable "industry" emphasizes, since even zipcord is capable of a high-quality connection. |
Signal interference is the key word here. You are asking the wrong question!
>>>My question stands. How is it that designer cables improve what goes into a recording via cheap generic cable? But this is just food for thought. I really don't have an answer, or for that matter a dog in this fight.><
It is true that no cable can improve what the sound engineer messed up or not, but this is not the job a cable is supposed to do in the first place.
The job of a cable is to the transmit the signal as pure as possible and do this with the least possible amount of loss or interference. So it simple words: An inferior cable will interfere and degrade the sound to a greater extend than a superior one.
Without wanting to promote HMS cables her, Mr. Strassner of HMS, who like "vanservers" is an engineer and holds a PHD in atomphysics, discovered, that i.e. the magnetic field plays an enormous role, how pure the signal is being transmitted inside a speaker cable. The more the magnetic field has a chance to escape, the more the sound will degrade on its way to the speakers.
So some of his designs have to do with containing this magnetic field inside the cables. You can imagine that a cable like this will be much more expensive just to build, than taking a few feets of Radio Shack wire. And this is only one of many factors he has dicovered, which play a vital role in cable design.
Its not so much what goes into a cable, but what comes out of it and what has happened to the signal inside the cable.
Compare it to your own body: There is a disease which will interfere with how well food inside your guts is being absorbed. Two persons eating the same food, one will stay healthy, while one will die.
And you need the necessary resolution of system to display these differences also
Let me give you another example:
Let us say you have one of the high resolution digital cameras, which will give an incredible detail richness. Now you plan to print the picture and you have a cheap printer with limited resolution and a high-res printer. The photo file is the signal and the printer is the cable. So, altough in both cases you have the same photo file (signal), the print (sound) will be much more detailed when you print it with the high-res printer (cable)
So, at one point, it really makes sense to think about buying better cables for a system. But I agree, some of the prices are outrageous, which led me to my personal cable quest and ended in having found the HMS cables, with a wonderful price-performance ratio. The HMS cables are not cheap, but they do not carry these gigantic price tags, some of the companies carry, either.
One company recently came out with a new alloy, which is used in Germany for teeth fillings (because its so cheap) and their 8 ft speaker wire will cost you $15.000,00. Now this is a stiff price tag, if on the other hand, you can get a wonderful cable with mind blowing performance for one fith of this price, as I have personally discovered. That is the only reason I even dared to become an importer of said cables. But even this is a lot of money, but alas, good quality will never come cheap, but it does not need to cost so much either, that you have to apply for a second mortgage, when planing to buy a set of high-res audiophile cables.
The only advice I can really give you is, to ask any cable manufacturer for a money back guarantee.
Try to narrow your choice down to a maximum of 3 different brands and then try them out, in your system and be your own judge.
I mean, it will be your ears listening to your new cables and not the manufacturer's ears. And if these guys are honest traders, they will give you back your money and you havn't lost anything, but gained valuable experience by auditioning different cables.
I have listened to almost 50 brands of cables during my quest and over the months I was really able, with the help of Chesky Records test cd's, to improve the ability of my audiophile hearing. And I really mean a lot. And believe it or not (btw, we have a Ripley's "Believe it or Not" museum her in the FL-Keys) there are differences in how cables sound. So there should be some examples on display there for people who still will not believe it...or not??? |
Doc: My favorite is Mike Vansevers. He is an engineer who was a non-believer. When he discovered he was mistaken, he did so much research to figure out why cables and AC power have a sound, he ended up going into the Cable and Power Conditioning business. He has lots of discussion on his "new" theories. Http://www.vansevers.com/ |
Sugarbrie:
You'll never prevail with the "fishing-line-is-fishing-line/wire-is-wire" crowd ... casting pearl before swine. |
Paulwp: not talking about you (the OEM/Vahalla comment).
See Fizgig above; and I am referring to other posts as well.
Regards... |
Cables are all about losses, IMO. No cable can put more info back into the signal. A better cable should allow MORE of the original signal to pass, without adding its own signature.
Yes, according to my experience some cables sound better (to me) that other cables in my system. And yes, the prices are out-of-wack for all cables. You'd think the best single-ended interconnect 'in the world' _should_ only cost $100 for 1.0m. Sadly this is not true. |
Good point Flex. Actually, many many cds and records are terrible, and I'll trust you if you say some of the really good ones are made with better cables. So if cables in consumers' systems make any difference, you say, they function to minimize further loss.
What about those great old recordings? |
Really? Typical, and ridiculous. I said nothing about "all" studios, and nothing about electronics or speakers. I made specific reference to the "Golden Age of Stereo" (not my own idea by the way but one stolen from an anonymous source). Sure, some studios and engineers pay attention to cable, but right now, the vast majority of recording engineers still rely on generic cable.
My question stands. How is it that designer cables improve what goes into a recording via cheap generic cable? But this is just food for thought. I really don't have an answer, or for that matter a dog in this fight.
I did not address that question to you Sean, and I have no interest whatsoever in your point of view, so I'd appreciate your ignoring my posts. |
Paul,
I want to address your last post specifically. Anyone who has ever worked in recording knows that the sound available at the recording/mastering level is frequently FAR superior to what eventually appears on the release format.
The ratty cables used in many pro audio venues do indeed contribute to the progressive loss of detail and quality from the original sound. The cables used by consumers only serve to preserve what is encoded on the disc as well as possible - not to recreate what is already lost.
But as many above say, the better the recording equipment in the first place, the better the disc quality. |
Paul, you take for granted that all studios are "plummed" with "generic" cables, crappy electronics and use JBL's to mix and master their recordings. That is just not so. While they may not be using the most "expensive" or "technologically advanced" wiring, some studios do actually use "audiophile grade" wiring and audiophile grade equipment to listen to and mix their recordings.
Just for sake of clarity ( and i think that most "regulars" here already know that i feel this way ), i am not saying that "wire is wire". It sure ain't. I'm just saying that what we you pay for and what we get ( especially in this specific area of audio ) may not balance out too well.
As to Tim's comments about me being an "old dog" and not being able to be taught any new tricks, that may be "partially correct". I do have my "beliefs" and think that they are well founded, BUT i am always open to learning. If you don't believe this, go back a few years to Audio Review and dig through the archives. Ozzy ( a regular at AA ) and i went round and round about power cords. He was preaching and i was denying. There were something like 60 posts made between a small group of us within a matter of half a day. I am now a believer that power cords can make a difference, so some things can change. I may be like a piece of "stone" in some ways, but it is at least "soft" stone. Some things DO "sink in" after a while : ) Sean
PS... if something does "sink in" and make a permanent impression after a long period of time, would that make me a "fossil" ???
> |
We seem to have a failure to communicate. Did anyone up there say he compared the Valhalla to "OEM grade cables"?
The point wasnt that recording engineers are experts. It was that there is no more detail, information, air, whatever it is you're looking for from a designer cable than got onto the recording through the ratty old cheap cables the recording engineer used to make the recording. |
I've heard many many poorly engineered recordings; so who
ever said a recording engineer is an expert?
The recording engineers I know are very frugal types. They are just too cheap to spend more than $20 on a cable. When they make a recording only technical issues matter to them to the detriment of musical considerations. If they had two takes of a song, one perfect technically that are dead musically and the other a musical masterpiece with a few technical glitches, they would choose the technically perfect one to put on the CD everytime. The musical masterpiece is lost to history. |
I find it amazing all the people on various posts who claim to have demo'd Nordost Vahalla and OEM grade cables and hear no difference. I assume you're dishonest. Who would honestly do this type of comparison as a serious demo? Did you acutally buy both cables? If not, then which Nordost dealer did you piss-off by having them do the switching in their store?? I doubt they would accomodate you. |
There is no doubt that people hear differences, usually improvements, when using expensive/well regarded/designer cable as compared to something more reasonably priced/frowned apon/generic. It has alos been well established (extensivly, with many variations) that these differences disapear when you don't know for sure whether the cable/cord in question is in the system.
It's really a matter of personal outlook what you make of this (or whether you deny one of the points and start tying yourself in knots arguing test protocols and epistemology.)
IMO the only reason this is an issue is that people will pay the...agressive...prices you mentioned. |
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Flex, if you think most esoteric cable manufacturers have engineers, RD depts, human resource depts, water coolers, company picniks, and the weekly payday meetings, I think you may be sadly disappointed. Maybe after selling 5000 power cords may they have proper facilities, many cable makers are hobbyist/audiophiles/marketers working out of a garage. Cables companies dont make cable, they use off the shelf parts and construct them in some shape or form. I couldnt agree with Sean more, someone earlier said it must have taken 5-6 hours to produce that $2xxx powercord. there may be $60 in parts in that cord on a good day, Thats quite a racket. There has to be a line drawn, a common sense line in my opinion on cable pricing, there is no guarantee that a $7500 cable will sound better than a $500 cable, quite possibly in the application used, the $500 cable could be superior. People often use the excuse that since you've spent $100k on gear, you need to spend a good deal on wires. In my opinion,what you need to do is spend the time listening to different wire that best suits your gear. Price does not equal better sound. |
Oh c'mon. The cables in your system are aimed at phase and time alignment between your source components and your speakers. The a/c cables in your system are aimed at controlling power distortions in your house. Their purpose is to preserve the original signal on the disc as best possible, period. |
Just out of curiosity, beyond poorly designed cables that clearly do something wrong, what part of a recording not captured by a $19.95 mic cable or any of the plain vanilla cheap copper cables used by recording engineers is re-created by those designer cables?
What part of the signal now realized through the Valhalla was left out by those cheap cables used by recording engineers in the "Golden Age of Stereo" before they knew any better?
Of course they're joking. |
Sean; you can't say "nuts" on Audiogon-- well, it depends on context maybe-- perhaps "family jewels"?. However it's much safer than saying "wires".
Doc; your fishing line analogy, observations and comments are great.
........gotta' love these "wire" threads. Cheers. Craig |
...and DD adict guy -- this isn't a VOODOO it's quite real to me. |
I would lookup into US history rather than critisize such absurd with the cables.
It is all come from here where the all freedom marketing and business begins. Understand me right that marketing business advances and it's all about how to sell. You might manufacture or buy somewhere(in most cases) a piece of $hit product, invest money into the advertising and sell or re-sell it as a greatest stuff in the world -- just have a guts to skillfully describe it, place it in the nice box use the right colours etc...! People learned in US to sell promises and hopes that initially cost nothing(no building materials used or spent). This is the country where the real business was born.
In our addiction environment believe it or not wires are the most profitable components if skillfully sold on the market. It's done by psychologically convinsing people that they improve the sound and/or it's done in terms of fasion.
As to HT Someday I would want to get a cut from that business since to my knowledge rich folks spending arround 5K to the specialist just to assemble components that cost far more than $30k. It's kind of a fasion right now rather than someone's addiction(fasion by definition is the first derivative of market) to assemble a $100k HT system in the new house's dedicated room.
For those who likes math:
d/dy(market) = fasion
So folks if you spend $10k for a wire, it's OK because it's a fasion just like you buy Armani suit, BMW and it's cool!:)
Mara |
I am playing devil's advocate here -
What about running the numbers, that is, the real ones on running a small business within a niche market. If your main business is cables, and you have to pay engineers, marketing people, distributors, factory upkeep, expensive measurement and assembly equipment, test room construction etc, how many cables would you have to sell at a realistic pricepoint (say $200) in order to break even. Now what if you increase the price to $7000?
It seems worthwhile to me that someone stays in this business to research cable issues. What may have happened is that competition for the small number of audiophile customers has been driven too strongly by too many 'manufacturers' seeing too much profit available for too little research effort. |
Since I replaced the lead sinkers on my fishing line with high quality ferrites I've caught more fish and bigger fish. More importantly, they taste fresher, without any haze or glare to obscure the fine nuances of flavor. Overall grain and harshness are reduced, as well. Where I used to reach for the tartar sauce, I now use only a spritz of lemon.
And don't tell me to ABX them, either. I know what my taste buds can taste!
Happy cabling!
Will (who uses good but not terribly expensive cables) |
Remember the Absolute Power Cord? What happened when it was introduced about a year ago? The Voodoo priests went ballistic! How could a cheap Chinese made cord outperform them expensive cables? What a riot! |
I think Sean said it all.
Wire is not wire and we cannot measure everything that makes a system sound good at this point, but the price put on cables cannot survive any intelligent look at their design parameters. Too many folk look at cables as some mystery tweak when there is less "mystery" in cables than any other part of the audio circuit. What is especially unfortunate is that in the cable discussions so many throw up their hands and argue that measurements and numbers don't matter at all. This is throwing out the design with the bathwater, so to speak, and moves us all in the wrong direction as far as improvements in audio are concerned and leaves everyone even more available for the endless marketing hype. Just recently there was a post where a guy was advised to buy $3,500 worth of wire when his cd player and speakers totaled 5k. I'd never walk in that store again.
Sincerely, I remain |
For the record, I really really hate getting kicked in the nuts! I was a wire skeptic and still am to some degree but I have tried different interconnects and found subtle differences that were worth changing from one brand to another. All within reason. I'm with Sean on this one, spending more than $200 on a used interconnect is not the best way to tweak a system. DIY makes sense assuming you're handy with a soldering iron and have the time. Power cords...nope, no real difference from what I can tell (and I do own Synergistic, YBA, ProAc, and MIT). The wire market is catering to those who seek the final frontier at all costs, logic and intuition be damned. I'm very curious who buys interconnects and power cords at MSRP in the first place? Want that last 1% improvement? Run dedicated lines so your household appliances don't compete with your source components for yer juice. Roll your tubes! Better yet, tweak your listening room. |
Doc: Have you tried spiking your boat? Awesome bass! |
Sean-I enjoy being kicked in the nuts ;) and those of us who know you at all will know their is no chance to "knock some sense" into you-its a lost cause :)
I agree $7500 is a lot for cables but $70000 is a lot for speakers(to me any way) so in audio everything is relative. Some people may find what I have to be frivolous others find it to be humble, way it goes. Reminds me of a saying "shit or get off the pot"
Tim |
Since we are on the subject, let me add to the "snake oil" side of the debate.
Just picked up a new power cord that was absolutely raved about in a couple of reviews. I bought it used, so the price was not as bad as buying new. I did this even though i have seen the insides of more than a few "commercial" built cords and about threw up after hearing the price. Well, this cord was no different. Even paying list price for everything, this cord has about $40 - $60 ( at the VERY most ) in raw parts. The only reason that it costs that much would be that fancy "snakeskin" sheathing and the hospital grade plug. Even though selling price of this cord is nearly half a grand, it uses standard "industrial grade" mass produced wiring in it.
This specific power cord is not any different than most of the other "tweaky" power cords that i've seen either. The reviewers might have found this out if they took it apart. Only problem is that the manufacturer GLUED, used shrink wrap and "potted" the insides of the connectors to hide their "top secret" design. Did they do this because they didn't want someone else to steal the design from them ? Or did they do it because they didn't want you to know that they were stealing from you ???
To answer your question, NO, i haven't tried it yet. Yes, it might sound different than another cord, but NO, it is not worth that kind of money. After all, ANYBODY can put "high grade" connectors on industrial grade $2 - $3 per foot power cabling and call it something fancy. The scariest thing is that this cord is considered to be a GREAT "bargain" amongst those that have reviewed and used it.
I will say that wires DO make a difference. With that in mind, there is next to nothing that a "wire company" can put together that you can't do yourself. That goes for selection of parts, ferrite's, impedance compensation networks, fancy geometries, "burning in", cryogenics, radiation treatments from plasma powered UFO's, etc... As such, i say long live "DIY" and those that are willing to learn and get their hands dirty. Death to "shysters" and those that aid them. They are the prime reason that high end is in the state that it currently is.
Why bother trying to achieve "high end results" when you can't even afford ONE cable ? Instead, the mass majority will purchase a complete system with half a dozen speakers for the cost of ONE cable. Now tell me which "components" ( one cable or an entire surround system with a dvd player, tuner, preamp, power amp, speakers, etc... ) took more research, development, parts, labor, tooling, machining, and marketing to produce ? Then ask yourself why you support "shysters" with shady business ethics ?
If you've got money to burn or throw away, that is your prerogative. Other than that, all i can say is "a fool and his money are soon parted". I've been that fool and i hope that i've learned a lesson ( again ). Most "reviewers" are nothing more than "false prophets" with most audiophiles worshiping a golden calf when it comes to wires. Sean
>
PS... This is MY personal opinion and is not aimed at anyone in specific. I may not agree with you ( a LOT of you ), you may not agree with me. I'm sorry if you feel that i kicked you in the "nuts". You're more than welcome to kick me in the head and knock some sense into me with an intelligent rebuttal. With that in mind, I hope that we can still share different points of view and respect each other in the morning : ) |
I was just kidding in my last post about the $3,000 fishing line. The truth is since I've migrated from using $8.95 fishing line to using $3,000 fishing line, a magical transformation has taken place. Whereas before I was simply going through the process of fishing, now I have become one with the fish.
I have also noticed that the bass that I catch are much more full bodied yet without any hint of being tubby. Moreover, they hit my line with far greater slam and jaw-dropping authority.
Now for those of you that do not regularly use $3,000 fishing line, yet feel entitled to make a reasoned judgement as to the merit of my claims, WRONG! You are simply slobs and Phillistines that are just not open to the experience. I vascillate between pity and scorn for you :-) |
$7,500 for used cables is ridulous! You can get a half-way decent pair of 18" new ones for that!
I remain, |
Stealth:
The bass boat analogy is a bit off. Mark did not question the logic of high dollar gear (speakers, amps, etc.), just the merit of high priced cables. Thus, expensive boats and trucks to haul them with may be extravagances, but necessary extravangances if one wants to catch bass.
Now if we're talking about some moron paying $3,000 for $8.95 worth of fishing line, then I think that the analogy works |
Examine any hobby and you will see extremes. Some of the Pros are starting to come around. While they're not about to install the mega-buck wire, some are considering the mid-stream stuff, from a very recent TAS or Stereophile issue. My rule is, if you can't hear a positive difference, not just a difference, don't buy it. All wires act as a band-pass filter to some degree, change the impedance of the link to some degree, and many contain RFI/EMI sensitive designs to reduce noise. I have an EE background and I too scoffed, but I was sensible enough to test the claim, borrow some I/Cs from my local shop and compare. I have also had others who really don't care, listen, don't know what I am doing back there, listen and hear a difference. System resolution and noise are notable factors. Again, if you can't hear it, don't buy it. |
To All,
This was educational on several levels. I expected more defensiveness and hostility, and instead received supportive and intelligent responses on both sides of the issue (sometimes from the same person). I also enjoyed the humor of "Rip Van Winkle" who thankfully stopped short of suggesting that I must have been incarcerated to have been out of touch for so long.
I certainly hear differences in single-ended cables (to which my experience is limited). Yes, even ten years ago we had choices in wiring, and as often as not a steep increase in cost reflected a marked decrease in sound quality (I'm remembering some expensive offerings from Tara Labs in particular that worked horribly in a friend's high end ARC/Genesis system). So in the last eight years, I take it that cables have not exactly become a science?
Certainly grungy mains, overloaded circuits and stray RF have the potential to degrade sound quality, but how much can shielding cost? There is a certain perverse logic in separating the transport from the D/A converter, for instance, only to require connecting the two with an expensive external "digital" cable instead of building the two components into the same chassis to begin with (and let's not get into outboard "jitter reducers," "naturalness restorers," stick-on discs and magic bricks, all of which admittedly affect the sound somehow).
I recently bought a $30 analog Mitsubishi MGA tuner in a plastic cabinet with fake heat-sink ridging on the sides and cheap built-in interconnects that looks like it might have been sold by Sears in 1971 for about what I just paid for it. The whole component must weigh close to four pounds and has a power cord so thin I wondered if I should shorten it. Yet the honest-to-goodness truth is that it completely blows away any other tuner I've ever owned, including the venerable Luxman T-117, which rose to Stereophile Class B, where it remained for as long as it was in production. It's scary how good this Mitsu is, especially when you start considering the *possibility* that our components could be designed to sound great using virtually any conductor of relatively nominal cost.
I appreciate the suggestions you have made, and I'll look into the more reasonably priced models you've mentioned. If you have other suggestions for wire that is priced at least somewhat proportionately to the components with which they'll be used, I'd love to hear about them. I was heartened to hear that people still buy Monster products, for instance.
By the way, a "high-end" reference mic cable that several studios are using is the B.L.U.E. Kiwi, which is the cable I referred to that costs $49.95. Lynn Fuston and 12 other engineers used it for their mic and mic preamp shootout CDs (3 CD set $110 delivered from 3DAudioinc.com). I don't know anything about "balanced" when it comes to playback -- is there any difference between a mic cable and a balanced interconnect?
Also -- another one you correctly identified -- the $125 mic cable I referred to is indeed made by Monster.
I'll tell you this -- I think a whole lot of intelligent, thoughtful people have joined the hobby in the last 8 years. You all are a cut above what I remember from the "letters" pages of Stereophile in the early 90s!
Again, thank you for the links and the advice, and for your patient and kind responses.
Sincerely,
Mark Hubbard |
QUESTION, Ever given any thought to the poor guy who puts out $ 25,000 for a Bass Boat, & another 2 or 3 thousand for all that gear he needs. Then has to buy the latest 4 wheel drive truck to get it to the water. mmmmmmmmmmm Sounds like a $ 60,000.00 plus investment to me. Then if he is lucky he gets to go fishing 2 , 3 if he is single, times a month. Point is, we have hobbies. What ever makes it fun & pleasurable to you is what is important. Having fun can be expensive!!! Whew, now pass the day old bread & the can of beans while I wait for my New Nordost Valhalla cables to arrive!!!
Good Thread,
Good listening to all, |
Well, Mark, as you can see from the many responses you got, there are a sizeable number of audiophiles who believe in the value of high-end cables. They believe because they have listened to different cables, and those cables have sounded different to them. And if you listened to the various brands of cables out there, they might sound different to you, too. That doesn't mean they are different. It just means that you're as susceptible as other humans to the brain's proven tendency to hear things that are not there.
So welcome back to the hobby. Keep on the lookout for snake oil. There's a lot of it about these days. |
As far as pros go fewer and fewer are scoffing at quality cables because once you hear how much better your U67 sounds with even a $130 monster cable, you can't help but hear the improvement over a $20 pos cable. If the doubters stopped their chuckling and actually listened maybe they would churn out better sounding records.
P.S. Many major mastering facilities use high quality "audiophile" cables (Audioquest/MIT/Monster/AlphaCore/etc.) in their studios. |
mark: since i, myself, have only just awakened after spending these past 20 years in a coma, i quite understand your concerns. my two sons, who were but grade-schoolers as i remember them, now each earn in just a year what it took me a decade to realize! my modest tract house that my wife and i scrimped and saved for to purchase for $40,000 is now assessed for $300,000! when i replaced my beloved BMW this year, my new one cost ten times more than its predecessor! and food! don't even talk about it. please. how can anyone afford to live in these times? and, my god, look how tastes have changed! my hero, lawrence welk, is now replaced by someone named "snoop doggy dog"? playboy magazine now shows, ahem, pubic hair? i'm with you, mark. i'm sticking with zip cord. thin zip cord. the wildly expensive wire is just more, ahem, pubic hair. and i still refuse to look at it! who would care to get close enough to listen to it?!
r. vanwinkle. |
