1st Post Intro & Ramblings
I’m back. I will admit that I do not have the education that another poster has, I am not the salesman nor can I create the illusion of grand ole mystery as others. So I will step aside and let a verified pro explain. https://youtu.be/3BBoz-g9Y7A Sounds a lot like what I said from the beginning of this thread. Happy listening. |
Anyone can try this, play a movie like the lion king. You want to stay in Dolby surround so go into your settings and turn off the center channel, 4.2, 6.2 or whatever your setup is without the center. Sit in the sweet spot and listen/watch for like 15-20 minutes. A few things you should notice, the voices are still centered but softer, if there are multiple things on the screen they will have there own space from left to right and depending on the quality of your setup there is depth which means there are sounds directly in front of you at different distances which will match what is on the screen . The downside to this is that sweet spot is limited to 1 or 2 people. |
kreapin OP40 posts11-03-2020 11:54pma mono recording cannot recreate an image. Center cannot create an image with any other speaker, time alignment and yada yada ya..... back to basics and equilateral triangle You really don’t know how we perceive sound do you? I am a bit shocked given your stated experience. Localization happens from relative sound levels and timing. Given traditional studio recording techniques, most of the placement of sounds in a stereo playback is level based, not timing. Timing can be captured through microphone techniques, but that is actually not very common. In a purely analog processing workflow, it is almost impossible to impart timing based location information into stereo playback given that each instrument or group is recorded separately and then mixed. The only reason things come into the center in a stereo image is because essentially the same thing is coming out of both speakers at the same time tricking the ear into hearing the same thing in both ears at the same time which tell you "center". Most of the movement from left to right is level based forcing your brain to work against the timing information that says otherwise. Digital processing has brought a significant potential to stereo mixing where some level of timing information can be attempted to be embedded that did not exist in the recording, but that is more difficult than it sounds as the sound still has to come from both speakers, confusing the brain, causing cancellations, etc. The research is on how to use that cancellation as an advantage not a disadvantage. So ... your comment about not being able to use the center channel in combination with the left or right channel to place a sound somewhere between the center channel and the other two speakers illustrates a lack of understanding of how we perceive location and how location is encoded on most recordings. Everything that goes to every speaker is unto itself mono. Stereo, quadraphonic, triphonic, comes from the implementation of multiple sources, and it does not have to be two. |
I was really thinking what happens if you play a mono CD, or a record I guess, through the surround system. Mono as in, let’s say, 1951 recording. Real mono from the start, not anything downmixed or processed in some similar way. I have never had an opportunity to hear that, but I am interested if anyone has paid attention to it. If I had to guess, if all chanells are playing the same, the sound should be right in the middle of the room. In some way, right in the spot where a listener would be ideally sitting. That is just my guess, not my claim. |
Ok, I know nothing. In the last 20 plus years, in and out of people’s homes either working or buying something. If I see a quality setup I will try and get a chance to listen. If I am working and need to move there equipment, we tape around the location of the equipment and take pictures and measurements. What do I have? Equilateral triangle. I sit in the sweet spot and hear everything you said stereo cannot do. My bestbuy knowledge is still equal to what the manufacture of the product said. I also said in post 1, many of the homes I have been to are members here. It surprises me how many systems are no where near correct, that is why I started with a basic, blue collar mindset. But you have given nothing but noise. Is there a science behind it? No explanation of that question will be in this thread because of what I said 3 sentences ago. Conventional wisdom vs you? I’m sorry but what you are talking about goes way beyond what was going on in here, but jumping in a thread and trying to sound like you are they mit engineer. |
Dude you have shown you are Bestbuy installer level with your info. You patted yourself on the back 10 times for parroting other info available in a 1000 places on the web and left out wickedly critical parts and probably don't even know the basis for most of it. Give it a rest. No one is calling you when their studio does not sound right. |
You have not provided the basics as you have not addressed listener placement for avoidance of bass nodes. I am not going to cover that as there are many resources that do. For a basis start: https://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm But to my point, you have to think about more that just rules, i.e. boundary effects can dominate: http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/ Of course GIK acknowledges that preferences and room sizes, etc. come into play: https://www.gikacoustics.com/room-setup-speaker-placement-201-part-one/ This is an audiophile community, most are looking to get well beyond the basics. |
If you read my post completely, I did mention that sweet spot is limited for 1 or 2 people. If you read my posts completely I am giving the most basic advice for the masses, why? Because in all my years doing this I have seen a lot of systems that were not tuned properly. Anyone who reads what I have posted can get results. Crutchfield and the speaker manufacturers themselves all say the same thing, it is the basics. But you have still provided nothing but noise. |
You have not helped anyone, you have provided 1/2 of the basic instructions that can be found on literally thousands of websites, blog posts, etc. Most of the good ones will start with a discussion of bass nodes and listener placement, before getting into speaker placement. That move them out from the wall, then make a triangle is not "audiophile" grade help, it is Crutchfield level (though if I remember they had a good guide at one point). There are so many half - decent to good articles on the web that writing a few things in a forum post that are not even complete, on an audiophile website is not "helping" Real sounds don’t come from two places at the same time, then come from one place. When you recreate them coming from two places, those locations you perceive sounds to be are artificial and hence subject to things like where you are sitting, are did you turn your head, etc. Again, the center channel locks the vocals to the screen, where the majority of dialog in a movie happens. It also focuses the sound in the center, where again, the majority of action actually occurs in movies. Real sounds come from one spot in space, which a center channel defines for the center of the screen (approximately) and that make it immune to listener position, head rotation, etc. You cannot replicate that with two speakers .... and we are not even getting into the rear channels which again, two fronts cannot recreate. |
Like I stated in an earlier post, you have offered up nothing to help anyone that just so happens upon this thread, you try really hard to sound smart but have provided no substance. Anyone sitting at home with a decent receiver and decent speakers can take what I have posted and see positive results. You?????? The issue with theater sound is the mono channels. That rock solid center you speak of is a mono channel. We have 2 ears and we hear in stereo ;-) |
That's okay I have come to the conclusion you don't know how we locate sounds. Stereo speakers will never replace a center channel no matter how perfect. For one, it is only perfect for a very narrow spot. For two even turning your head moves the image. A center channel is immune to these real world issues. A home theater guy should know this. He should also know the importance of listener and speaker position for bass nodes and how to quickly made a good first pass and the balancing act with perfect imaging, creating ambience, etc. |
I have read thru some of your posts and I have come to the conclusion that you have not heard a properly tuned stereo. My present stereo is nothing fancy and the center image is rock solid. The reason I say stereo would sound better for film is because of how objects move through space across your front stage. But that concept would be lost if you have never experienced it on a properly tuned stereo |
Sorry kreapin Millercarbon appears to have an exclusive on "going on about his extensive 'knowledge'". You did lose me when you questioned full surround for home theater. Two stereo speakers will never provide the rock solid placement of vocals to the center of the screen. Two speakers tricks the brain using incomplete information to form the center image. An actual center channel provides the accurate timing information to both ears for accurate center placement. Also critical to placement is your listening position out of dominant bass nodes which I don't think you addressed. That sets a reference for the speakers which must point behind the head not at it and if you don't have acoustic controls or bass arrays, adjusting the speakers for more consistent bass and moving away from an equalateral can often give a more consistently good setup. |
Please understand that I am not going on about my extensive knowledge, super powers or my sneakers are better. I started this thread hoping to touch on some basics to help the blue collar guy who cannot afford to have a pro come help them setup as well as make better system purchases. For people like us, spending $5k plus on a theater pre-amp that will be obsolete in a few years does not work. We work hard and have responsibilities (and wives) that come before all this. All that I recommend is tailored with this in mind and trying to keep to the basics. |
Glupson Thank you. Lol.... Now to continue on placement. I think I have successfully defended my explanation on speaker placement/position. Ultimately the goal is to time align tweeters, midrange and/or midwoofers. All 3 have different dispersion patterns and speed, tweeters having the more narrow and fastest timing vs midwoofers. We have trouble locating sounds below 80hz but using 2 subs pressurize the rooms more evenly. Toe in aligns the tweeters dispersion with your ears, changing the front height can help align the mid with tweeters as well as change the plane (lift or lower where sound is originating from). These steps are basics and not hard line instructions, every speaker design and its components has comprises and advantages so tweaking position is part of the game. Oh and yes there is more than 1 proven method of speaker placement and other members have pointed out, google can help with explaining how they work. When you are done (never really done) you will find vocals hanging dead center, that is part 1. Next, pay attention to the other instruments, high frequencies can be tricky but if you close your eyes and concentrate you can hear if they sound off. That will tell you to continue to toe in. |
"This is correct. More people should know this. Save a huge amount of time. Unbelievable amount of time." Why would anyone want to save time with a hobby? Isn't hobby about wasting time? "Do you have a string or something we can use for a straight line? Yes." Why were the vendors bringing long strings to the show? Was there a Boy Scout convention in the area, too? If they had brought it for speaker placement issues, wouldn't they already know how to use it before some imposter told them to? |
Wow indeed. We apparently read English differently. audio2design wrote “There is nothing "golden" about an equalateral triangle at least for sound. There is not a lot to justify it.” Now I can’t quote your post because your all over the place. You agreed with audio2design and then went on to explain how you measure an equilateral triangle? That means you don’t agree with audio2design? Either way, you both claim that no toe in or tinkering is necessary which you disputed very eloquently with “Can you name even one with instructions that conflict with this? No. You can't. You just thought it would be smart to act like you know something, when you don't.” along with normal frustration “Figure it out. Until you do, enjoy your status, #28.” I think I proved my point, I quoted from the owners manual from 2 manufacturers and it reiterates all that I have posted about positioning. |
Hate to tell you, but nothing there conflicts with anything I’ve said. So its a complete lack of logic. See, all we said was symmetry for imaging. Which is true. Focal even says "the loudspeakers should be positioned symmetrically". So its like you either don’t know what I said, or don’t know what Focal said- or both. For the record, I said nothing about any of these other things (toe, walls) that will make imaging even better. You leapt to that conclusion yourself. Wow, indeed. |
Here you go, quoted from the manufacturer. Anthony Gallo Depending on décor considerations you may wish to position your Nucleus Reference3’s within a just a few inches of the wall behind them, but the sound will be more "open" when the speakers are 12 to 36 inches out into the room. The Nucleus Reference3’s can fire straight ahead, OR angled in, towards the listening position. Stereo imaging will be more specific when angled in, and upper bass will be more prominent and "faster sounding. Focal The loudspeakers should be positioned symmetrically, facing the listening area, ideally forming an equilateral triangle with it. It is, however, possible to change these distances to reach the ideal compromise for any particular conditions (fig. C). The loudspeakers should be positioned at the same height, in the same horizontal plane. Ideally, the tweeter should be positioned at the same height as the listener's ear when listening normally (fig. D). Do not position your loudspeakers too close to a corner of the room and do not place them too close to a wall. If they are positioned close to a wall or a corner this has the effect of exciting certain resonances within the room and artificially increasing the bass. Conversely, if the bass level is judged to be insufficient, you could try moving the loudspeakers nearer a wall to re-balance the bass level (fig. E). |
What? All of them? Can you name even one with instructions that conflict with this? No. You can't. You just thought it would be smart to act like you know something, when you don't. Listen, I know a lot of people still haven't figured this out. Its not news to me. Nor is it new that people continue to believe BS simply because a lot of other people believe the same BS. Its why we have the word sheeple. Figure it out. Until you do, enjoy your status, #28. |
Timing will be "aligned" as long as the two speakers are equal distance to the ears. There really is no other alignment. Most of it is a balancing act between direct/reflected, and shadowing function of the head to the other ear. The first heavily impacted by speaker and room, the second by speaker, and angle. This is correct. More people should know this. Save a huge amount of time. Unbelievable amount of time. One particularly clueless individual thinks there is just no way speakers can be set up in 10 minutes. Reality check. Those who follow my posts will know this. I'm at CES, yes the Consumer Electronics Show. Vendor pass, Talon Audio room. They are just not getting the sound they want. Full hour at least tweaking this way, tweaking that. Sounds good but the image just isn't "locked in". Was my first time there so trying to fly on the wall it until it gets to where they are out of ideas and ready for anything from anyone. Do you have a tape measure? Yes. Do you have a string or something we can use for a straight line? Yes. So we stretch the string, put the speakers on that line, measure to the middle of the string, run another one at 90 degrees, double-check speakers are equidistant from that point. Done. Not even 10 minutes. Beautiful imaging. Everyone happy. Done it many times, many different systems, many different rooms. It just ain't that hard folks. |
As eloquent as all that sounds, you offered up nothing to help any person reading this. On the other hand, you take a measuring tape and use those simple triangle steps, stay 2-4ft away from walls and toe in a little at time. Something I recommend frequently to people, go to the local high end shop and spend some time listening to a properly tuned system. Chances are we cannot afford it but now you have a reference, you now know what stereo actually sounds like. The next thing is to get it at home at a price point that you’re comfortable with. Even with semi decent speakers (Polk, Boston, Q etc) and a quality amp, you will get results using those basic steps. |
Timing will be "aligned" as long as the two speakers are equal distance to the ears. There really is no other alignment. Most of it is a balancing act between direct/reflected, and shadowing function of the head to the other ear. The first heavily impacted by speaker and room, the second by speaker, and angle. Mixing studios are such a mish-mash of near-field, close to near field, and other setups, that trying to match it with your home setup would be pointless, and most wouldn't know what Cardas configuration was in that world. Pointless, but admirable goal. Most mixing rooms are deader though than the average home setup. The point here is the setup is artificial, so using rules such as equilateral triangle, golden rule, Cardas, etc. really makes little sense since you are not recreating the recording session nor even the mixing session. |
Using the steps I described are basics that apply for a majority of homes. The equilateral setup is about timing and alignment of the sound waves from the speakers. The recording is done in a studio and fine tuned later on in a dedicated space which is setup either using triangle, cardas or some other method. |
There is nothing "golden" about an equalateral triangle at least for sound. There is not a lot to justify it. So much is dependent on speaker dispersion, the room, etc. that using it as a starting point can have you hopelessly away from ideal that you will never get there. How many recordings are mixed with speakers in an equalateral setup? |
1st, you want to be at least 2-4 ft from rear and side walls and you don’t want anything next to your speakers. The triangle is equal distance from you and each speaker. All 3 sides should be equal. That is your starting point, from there you can start tweaking. If your ports are on the rear of speaker then you may want to be closer to 4 ft from rear wall. As you get closer to the wall the bass can get boomy and stage gets a bit muddy and loose. As you pull forward you loose some of the depth in bass but stage gets more focused. Toe in a little at a time, every speaker has different characteristics, strengths and weaknesses and your searching for a happy medium. That’s the basic idea. |
The small companies like that are most likely the future of high end. Harmon went buying out a lot of its competition for a few decades and now Samsung purchased Harmon. I havent been keeping track but there are a handful of companies that own a large percentage of the mid priced and down market. Quality suffers when this happens and why I try and pay more attention to the who designed the product vs the brand. |
Yep .... you can still get a great toe-tapping audio system without spending the wad or even straining the budget . I have four systems ranging from $1,000 to $40,000. The one that I listen to the most is my comparatively modest home office system starting with TRIANGLE standmount speakers and an ARCAM integrated amp streamed from a PC and MAGNUM DYNALAB FM tuner. https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/triangle-borea-br03 Below is a recent audiofest review echoing the budget/quality matrix sentiment starting with the TRIANGLE BOREA speakers above were reviewed below. (NOTE the prices are in $CAD below, so it’s a third cheaper in $USD equivalent) https://novo.press/montreal-audiofest-report-part4/ “ .... Canadian importer Motet Distribution partnered with several local dealers to spotlight its portfolio of high-end audio brands at this year’s Toronto Audiofest. Motet distributes several high performance audio brands including Plinius, Auris, PMC, Triangle, Lumin, VTL, Music Hall, Hifiman and iFi. In one room, Toronto retailer Star Electronics / Motet demonstrated that you can achieve some great sound without spending a ton of money. The affordable system here showcased the Triangle Borea bookshelf speakers ($599), Triangle Tales 340 subwoofer, Music Hall A15.3 integrated amp ($750), Music Hall C-DAC15.3 DAC / transport ($750) and Music Hall mmf-2.3wh turntable. The music had me tapping my toes in seconds flat. Vocals were vibrant, clean, articulate and full of emotion. Guitars displayed detailed string textures as they danced around in the mid / high ranges. The bass was also surprisingly deep and well articulated for such a small and inexpensive system. Overall, this was perhaps the highest value system I had the pleasure of listening to at the show. Amazing value! ...” |
Ok back to budget. Since I buy & sell I run across some great deals from time to time. A recent find was the well regarded Odyssey Stratos Extreme Monoblocks. After posting them for sale, I received quite a few emails asking the same 2 questions, why am I selling them and what am I replacing them with. (Legal disclaimer again) In my opinion, they are hard to beat at $3,500 new, they do deserve your attention. Used on the other hand is different, they reside in the $1,500-2,000 mark with shipping. At that price point in the used market I believe there are better amplifiers to be had. |
djones Yes we are seeing more of the active speakers with DSP and some are impressive. I had about 3 minutes with the Dutch & Dutch 8c and I will admit I was impressed. Incorporating this into many of the standard budget conscious systems presents some questions since many are doing double duty as a theater also. Maybe I’m just overthinking it but it doesn’t allow for much tinkering. I am on amp #4 in my present setup, each had a different character and highlighted different aspects of the sound. This allows for some customization or tailoring to suit your taste. |
