1st Post Intro & Ramblings

Wow. I think someone should let the speaker manufacturers know the information in there instruction manual is false 

Silence after post 27?

I’m back. I will admit that I do not have the education that another poster has, I am not the salesman nor can I create the illusion of grand ole mystery as others. So I will step aside and let a verified pro explain.

https://youtu.be/3BBoz-g9Y7A

Sounds a lot like what I said from the beginning of this thread. Happy listening.

Thank you fuzztone. Millercarbon; those budget builds are the most gratifying 

An example of this is my present setup which is basic at the moment since I buy & sell. Denon X3500 and a Meridian 556 powering a pair of Gallo Reference 3.1 towers. My wife is slowly becoming an audiophile and we went to a friends house who spent a considerable amount of cash on a 11.2 SVS Prime speaker bundle and Yamaha receiver. On the way home, wifey started asking why I didn’t step in and fix the sound. I explained that I did what I could quickly but it is what it is. She replied our 5.2 kicks it in the ... and we spent half the money. 

A few other observations. You guys are nuts. LOL. Some of the setups I have read and seen in pictures is just a whole different level. Me & my friends try and keep it simple at home, we build some large setups that can drag out for over week just to run a 2 hour show. Then tear it all down. We don’t want to work that hard at home. Sorta like the mechanic that drives a clunker. 
Next, I’ve come to love/hate iall the YouTube (and other social channels) so called audio/video pros. This is what has kept my side hustle going for so long ;-) but wow, so much bad information out there.

I’m still using the tape measure most of the time and still tinker a lot, OCD. 
As to what can be heard or appreciated really comes down to the listener. I had someone sitting on my sofa and his exact words were “it doesn’t sound right, the singers voice is in the middle”  I had to absorb that for a few. 

I cannot count how many homes I have been in through the years. I have sat on many sofas, eyes closed just listening. It surprises me how many systems are not dialed in correctly when it comes to speaker placement. Just a quick note, your ears do the same job as your eyes but in a different way. Sitting in the sweet spot with your eyes closed allows your brain to focus on the information. It will build a picture of the space using just what it is hearing. Some of you know this I am sure.The next step is the tried and true golden triangle. This is where you start, measuring tape in hand. From that starting point, you can start tweaking the position for the best 3D image. 

Center can only be mono, there is no left and/or right to create a stereo image 

Cables. WTF is what comes to mind when looking at the price tags. I am a firm believer in spending some in cabling. Starting with shoring up your power as far as you can afford, literally swap out the 14 gauge cables in the wall if you can. Amplifiers are dynamic and need loads of current in waves, this is where all the life in sound comes from, power. Almost all of the amps I have enjoyed the most have always had 1 thing in common, large toroidal transformers. Clean, quality power is important for sound quality. But a few grand for 3ft of cable touched by thanos? Most amplifiers will see an improvement in overall performance starting with a quality 10 gauge copper cable, after that initial jump it really gets expensive for a marginal increase in performance. I still say to invest in quality cables, your whole system can and will evolve but cables and bass always stays put. 

Now I’m gonna depart from traditional thinking and I’m sure many will scoff and throw stones but..... budget.

A vast majority of homes do not have a dedicated listening room so our stereo and theater share the same space. Now I’ll try my best to explain my thought process from here. All the magic happens in the stereo image, the center is mixed in mono and surround is effects. Spend your time and money in the stereo, once you have dialed it in you can now turn your attention to the rest except you shouldn’t have to spend so wildly. To hell with timbre matching speakers. Buy a Krell, Levinson etc. for your mains and depending on the speakers I would run a receiver or use a quality amp of lesser value. You basically want to keep pace with power but I feel spending hard earned $$ on a amp for effects and a mono channel defeat the purpose of a quality built amp, there is no image in mono. Find a quality speaker that reproduces vocals well enough and then tuning will get it close enough. I can elaborate further if needed.

That’s great. A little bit time and patience along with experience can take a system a long way. I purchased a complete Emotiva surround setup (Craigslist) with the ERT 8.3 and a 5 channel Emotiva amp. Sold within a week and made a few bucks. 6 months later I happened across the guy I sold it to, we chatted it up and of course we started equipment. I told him to dump the amp, he couldn’t understand why so I bet him $50 that my 25 year old Linn LK100 would make those ERT’s sound substantially better. I literally placed the Linn on top of the emotiva and went head to head with no tuning. His jaw dropped, 80x2 vs 400x2. Instead of taking his money, I sold him another amp.

I said ramblings in the title. If theater sound was created to reproduce the stereo image on a larger scale for a larger audience, then why not listen to it in stereo at home where you are catering for just 1 or 2. 

I most likely am not wording it correctly. Using a movie as your source, Pay attention to how sound from a center channel stays locked in, it’s a mono channel. Now listen to it in stereo (again, assuming it was recorded correctly).

After 10 years of casually reading, I can definitely attest there some high level professionals here. Since they’re here and maybe reading, I have a question that for the life of me I cannot figure out. I’ll start with “I don’t know everything but” from what I remember, Many moons ago some scientist sat in the audience at a moving picture show. single speaker (mono) sitting dead center, that was it for sound. As things ran across the screen, it bugged him because the sound didn’t move also. He went home and now we have stereophonic imaging. Move forward, we realize that the stereophonic was limited to a sweet spot. That’s what brought about theater sound, so everyone could enjoy this magic 3D stereophonic image. I think you get where I’m going. In my opinion (legal disclaimer), a very large percentage of the population usually watch movies in pairs, so the stereo image would be superior (assuming it was mixed correctly). The question is Why do so many stereophiles, audiophiles and/or avid listeners still go full surround to watch a movie?

I understand the heat directed at a member but I cannot throw shade. Believe it or not, he is just as important to the business than many of the pros. This is because even partially getting it right is better than having it all wrong which is common in most homes. At the very least, it gets someone without a clue interested. That interest grows with time along with there wallet and enjoyment. Hopefully we see that customer on websites like this in the future. 

I agree with most of that. I have noticed many here have dedicated spaces for sound, but that is not very common. In my years buying and selling or for work, a vast majority cannot spend the money you are talking and chances are you will not be calling us for help to install. Budget builds start on websites like this and are very important for business. More and more people listen to crap speakers and more and more music is recorded in the studio and released the same day (sounds like it). I believe we have to get more average blue collar people into enjoying a quality setup or this business will go to catering to just you high dollar customers. Many buy high dollar receivers and 5 years later it’s obsolete, that kills there enjoyment. Bringing the average Joe into this hobby starts with the budget builds. Taking that $5,000 system and turning it into something top notch for pennies on the dollar by shopping here and adding a quality 2 channel amp, cables and at the very least a quality pair of speakers. This is 1st step on a journey. 

Ok back to budget. Since I buy & sell I run across some great deals from time to time. A recent find was the well regarded Odyssey Stratos Extreme Monoblocks. After posting them for sale, I received quite a few emails asking the same 2 questions, why am I selling them and what am I replacing them with. (Legal disclaimer again) In my opinion, they are hard to beat at $3,500 new, they do deserve your attention. Used on the other hand is different, they reside in the $1,500-2,000 mark with shipping. At that price point in the used market I believe there are better amplifiers to be had. 

Researching a product is important but I think researching the who is more important. Speakers have been around a century, anyone can buy the loudspeaker cookbook and build something pretty decent. The sound engineers training,  experience and knowledge play a big part in the overall performance and this is more important than the badge on the front. 

Erj1953 I agree. I got into different kinds of music because of the sound systems and quality of the recordings, it still amazes me what some of this stuff can do. But a large majority of the music presently available sounds horrible when you sit down and listen. This is in part due to the lack of experience. Experience that starts at home with a quality setup. You cannot dial in the sound if you do not know what you are looking for. So much misinformation and poor quality equipment permeates the market. This has made the sound engineer of yesterday a dying breed. This will continue.

The small companies like that are most likely the future of high end. Harmon went buying out a lot of its competition for a few decades and now Samsung purchased Harmon. I havent been keeping track but there are a handful of companies that own a large percentage of the mid priced and down market. Quality suffers when this happens and why I try and pay more attention to the who designed the product vs the brand.

djones Yes we are seeing more of the active speakers with DSP and some are impressive. I had about 3 minutes with the Dutch & Dutch 8c and I will admit I was impressed. Incorporating this into many of the standard budget conscious systems presents some questions since many are doing double duty as a theater also. Maybe I’m just overthinking it but it doesn’t allow for much tinkering. I am on amp #4 in my present setup, each had a different character and highlighted different aspects of the sound. This allows for some customization or tailoring to suit your taste.

And this is why I think the high end market may end up going to the smaller brands. As companies continue to fall under the umbrella of larger companies, you start to see quality suffers. What made the brand special is gone. 

The front inside corner is your pivot point. Keeping that corner in place helps maintain your distance/timing.

1st, you want to be at least 2-4 ft from rear and side walls and you don’t want anything next to your speakers. The triangle is equal distance from you and each speaker. All 3 sides should be equal. That is your starting point, from there you can start tweaking. If your ports are on the rear of speaker then you may want to be closer to 4 ft from rear wall. As you get closer to the wall the bass can get boomy and stage gets a bit muddy and loose. As you pull forward you loose some of the depth in bass but stage gets more focused. Toe in a little at a time, every speaker has different characteristics, strengths and weaknesses and your searching for a happy medium. That’s the basic idea. 

Audiorusty 
I’m assuming you dialed in position? If you have, you can tinker quite a bit. Lifting the front of the speakers can lift your soundstage and depending on the speakers it can level the sound making it sound like a single plane. 

Tuberculin
i haven’t tried the Jim Smith method yet, since I’ve been home for 6 months and it looks like I’ll be here for a while, maybe I’ll take the time to try something different ;-)

Using the steps I described are basics that apply for a majority of homes. The equilateral setup is about timing and alignment of the sound waves from the speakers. The recording is done in a studio and fine tuned later on in a dedicated space which is setup either using triangle, cardas or some other method.

As eloquent as all that sounds, you offered up nothing to help any person reading this. On the other hand, you take a measuring tape and use those simple triangle steps, stay 2-4ft away from walls and toe in a little at time. Something I recommend frequently to people, go to the local high end shop and spend some time listening to a properly tuned system. Chances are we cannot afford it but now you have a reference, you now know what stereo actually sounds like. The next thing is to get it at home at a price point that you’re comfortable with. Even with semi decent speakers (Polk, Boston, Q etc) and a quality amp, you will get results using those basic steps.

Here you go, quoted from the manufacturer.

Anthony Gallo
Depending on décor considerations you may wish to position your Nucleus Reference3’s within a just a few inches of the wall behind them, but the sound will be more "open" when the speakers are 12 to 36 inches out into the room. The Nucleus Reference3’s can fire straight ahead, OR angled in, towards the listening position. Stereo imaging will be more specific when angled in, and upper bass will be more prominent and "faster sounding.

Focal
The loudspeakers should be positioned symmetrically, facing the listening area, ideally forming an equilateral triangle with it. It is, however, possible to change these distances to reach the ideal compromise for any particular conditions (fig. C). The loudspeakers should be positioned at the same height, in the same horizontal plane. Ideally, the tweeter should be positioned at the same height as the listener's ear when listening normally (fig. D).
Do not position your loudspeakers too close to a corner of the room and do not place them too close to a wall. If they are positioned close to a wall or a corner this has the effect of exciting certain resonances within the room and artificially increasing the bass. Conversely, if the bass level is judged to be insufficient, you could try moving the loudspeakers nearer a wall to re-balance the bass level (fig. E).

Wow indeed. We apparently read English differently.

audio2design wrote “There is nothing "golden" about an equalateral triangle at least for sound. There is not a lot to justify it.”
Now I can’t quote your post because your all over the place. You agreed with audio2design and then went on to explain how you measure an equilateral triangle? That means you don’t agree with audio2design? Either way, you both claim that no toe in or tinkering is necessary which you disputed very eloquently with 
“Can you name even one with instructions that conflict with this? No. You can't. You just thought it would be smart to act like you know something, when you don't.” along with normal frustration “Figure it out. Until you do, enjoy your status, #28.” I think I proved my point, I quoted from the owners manual from 2 manufacturers and it reiterates all that I have posted about positioning. 

Mono channels do not project an image, singular source 

Please understand that I am not going on about my extensive knowledge, super powers or my sneakers are better. I started this thread hoping to touch on some basics to help the blue collar guy who cannot afford to have a pro come help them setup as well as make better system purchases. For people like us, spending $5k plus on a theater pre-amp that will be obsolete in a few years does not work. We work hard and have responsibilities (and wives) that come before all this. All that I recommend is tailored with this in mind and trying to keep to the basics. 

Glupson
Thank you. Lol.... Now to continue on placement.
I think I have successfully defended my explanation on speaker placement/position. Ultimately the goal is to time align tweeters, midrange and/or midwoofers. All 3 have different dispersion patterns and speed, tweeters having the more narrow and fastest timing vs midwoofers. We have trouble locating sounds below 80hz but using 2 subs pressurize the rooms more evenly. Toe in aligns the tweeters dispersion with your ears, changing the front height can help align the mid with tweeters as well as change the plane (lift or lower where sound is originating from). These steps are basics and not hard line instructions, every speaker design and its components has comprises and advantages so tweaking position is part of the game. Oh and yes there is more than 1 proven method of speaker placement and other members have pointed out, google can help with explaining how they work. When you are done (never really done) you will find vocals hanging dead center, that is part 1. Next, pay attention to the other instruments, high frequencies can be tricky but if you close your eyes and concentrate you can hear if they sound off. That will tell you to continue to toe in.

a mono recording cannot recreate an image. Center cannot create an image with any other speaker, time alignment and yada yada ya..... back to basics and equilateral triangle 

Ok I’m done with this thread. Thanks gents, have a good night 

If you read my post completely, I did mention that sweet spot is limited for 1 or 2 people. If you read my posts completely I am giving the most basic advice for the masses, why? Because in all my years doing this I have seen a lot of systems that were not tuned properly. Anyone who reads what I have posted can get results. Crutchfield and the speaker manufacturers themselves all say the same thing, it is the basics. But you have still provided nothing but noise.

I have read thru some of your posts and I have come to the conclusion that you have not heard a properly tuned stereo. My present stereo is nothing fancy and the center image is rock solid. The reason I say stereo would sound better for film is because of how objects move through space across your front stage. But that concept would be lost if you have never experienced it on a properly tuned stereo

Like I stated in an earlier post, you have offered up nothing to help anyone that just so happens upon this thread, you try really hard to sound smart but have provided no substance. Anyone sitting at home with a decent receiver and decent speakers can take what I have posted and see positive results. You??????

The issue with theater sound is the mono channels. That rock solid center you speak of is a mono channel. We have 2 ears and we hear in stereo ;-)

I’m glad to see you can read but apparently it escapes you. Start with post 1. 
I still say, you have not heard a properly tuned stereo or did that escape also?

Ok, I know nothing. In the last 20 plus years, in and out of people’s homes either working or buying something. If I see a quality setup I will try and get a chance to listen. If I am working and need to move there equipment, we tape around the location of the equipment and take pictures and measurements. What do I have? Equilateral triangle. I sit in the sweet spot and hear everything you said stereo cannot do. My bestbuy knowledge is still equal to what the manufacture of the product said. I also said in post 1, many of the homes I have been to are members here. It surprises me how many systems are no where near correct, that is why I started with a basic, blue collar mindset. But you have given nothing but noise. Is there a science behind it? No explanation of that question will be in this thread because of what I said 3 sentences ago. Conventional wisdom vs you? I’m sorry but what you are talking about goes way beyond what was going on in here, but jumping in a thread and trying to sound like you are they mit engineer.

Anyone can try this, play a movie like the lion king. You want to stay in Dolby surround so go into your settings and turn off the center channel, 4.2, 6.2 or whatever your setup is without the center. Sit in the sweet spot and listen/watch for like 15-20 minutes. A few things you should notice, the voices are still centered but softer, if there are multiple things on the screen they will have there own space from left to right and depending on the quality of your setup there is depth which means there are sounds directly in front of you at different distances which will match what is on the screen . The downside to this is that sweet spot is limited to 1 or 2 people.