I am surprised that no one has suggested the Nagra PL-L. |
that's because most people think Niagra not as suitable to play my kind of music which happens to be mostly modern orchestra music and contemporary pop songs. got it? |
Please kindly read through the posts to understand what I'm looking for. Thanks |
Philipwu (Bjbcab), I was just about to suggest the Nagra. It's total BS that "any" preamp, not just the Nagra, is unsuitable to play a particular type of music. I believe the Nagra is an exceptional pre-amp, especially when outfitted with the balanced output option and placed on their anti-vibration stand. They might be hard to find used, but new the combo is about $13K-$14K, significantly below your stated budget. Give it a try, especially coupled with good SS amplification if that's what you prefer. Mine are paired with MX-Rs with great results. |
Philipwu, I have to agree with Lenny here. If a preamp is competent, it will not matter what type of music you play. I suspect you are looking for something with good bandwidth and detail but if a preamp is competent it will provide those things.
So the Nagra is a contender if it can drive your amplifier comfortably without loss of bass. It is that latter issue that is a concern if you are using a transistor amp. Some transistor amps have lower input impedance values (!0K being typical); this coupled with some tube preamps (ARC for example) will result in less bass. To that end I would compare the output impedances of your contenders; those that have more than 1K at 20Hz would be out if you have a transistor amp as in the example I gave.
Happy New Year! |
Atma is spot on here. A good preamp will play all music good. A great preamp will play all music great. Now, the speaker is the piece that may play one form of music better. I have found the more resolving a great preamp and system is the better all music sounds.
Atmasphere, while on paper I agree with you that a preamp with an output impedance of 5k - 10k ohms does not seem like a good match with an amp with an input impedance of say 20k - 50k ohms, why do these combos sometimes work so darn well? No bass roll off at all and wonderful music.
I know from experience that what on paper should not work can work gloriously in reality. I am not sure why this is, but it is. Any ideas? |
Bill (Grannyring), the two ways in which high output impedance of a line level component are most likely to have audibly significant consequences are:
1)Interaction of VARIATION of that impedance, as a function of frequency, with the load impedance, resulting in degradation of frequency response flatness and other effects.
If the output impedance is very low in relation to the load impedance, it assures that variations of that impedance will be insignificant in relation to the load impedance. But if the output impedance is relatively high, it does not NECESSARILY mean that those variations will be large enough to become problematical. A hypothetical output impedance that is purely resistive (as opposed to the impedance having significant capacitive or inductive components) will have no variation as a function of frequency, and assuming that the load impedance also does not vary significantly as a function of frequency the only consequence of that output impedance being high would be a slight gain reduction.
2)Interaction of that high output impedance with cable parameters, especially capacitance. If the interconnect cable is kept short, and a low capacitance cable is chosen, those effects will be minimized.
Happy New Year!
-- Al |
Thanks Al. In the situations I have heard the IC's were 1 meter and low capacitance. Perhaps this has also played a role. |
Hello Grannyring, you are correct. The higher the output impedance of any preamp, the shorter the IC should be.
However that does not explain bass response, but some of that depends on your speakers too, and whether you listen to recordings where the issues might show up. This is an area where audiophiles will say things like "this preamp has more impact than than that one" even when both preamps cut off at the same frequency. IOW, its in a realm of 'in comparison to what?"
What we are talking about here is issues with phase response, which behave to the ear more as a coloration than a frequency response issue, although when the phase is right you do get more impact. |
I have not gone through all the posts but just want to state the somewhat obvious. If you are going to spend the kind of money you listed for a preamp, you absolutely need to demo the gear in your system to understand the synergy (or lack there of). While I like the build and sound qualities of Shindo I would never be presumptious enough to think that there is a "best" of anything in regards to audio. My experience is that personal taste varies considerably in this hobby. Once you get a list of candidates, try to listen to them in your system and ignore all opinions but your own. I know this is not earthshattering advice but I am amazed at how many people buy very expensive products blind based on 2nd hand information. |
hi Atmasphere,
just reading thru one of your earlier post, you said "Deep bass seems to me the hardest thing for tube preamps to do right, but if they do that right there will be no solid state that can keep up". BUT i think SPECTRAL Audio would have no problem with speed if you are refering to that... |
Philipwu, I am not. The ability of a tube preamp to play the instruments with body and impact at the same time is the pervue of tubes and the bane of transistors. Sure, its easy for transistors to be fast (harder for tubes but what we are really talking about here is bandwidth and good tube preamps have as much bandwidth as transistors); the issue is how do you have speed and detail at the same time as being relaxed?
Too often I see brightness associated with detail and I see many audiophiles accept that to get good detail, it has to be bright. But it does not have to be that way- its possible to have more detail (than a bright preamp) and a relaxed, effortless but dynamic presentation all at the same time.
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Consider auditioning the Einstein The Tube Pre MK II at about $18k. You will not be disappointed. |
Thanks Shsohis. but my dealer did not have it. From the reviews, it was described as notes have clarity and not hard, edgy and a big see through soundstage, too bad i'm not prepare to risk 18K without an audition. Neither do i have the chance to hear Emotiva, Veloce, Exemplar Audio, Symphony Line & Viva. i'm really don't have much choice. |
I'll have to echo Lenny's comments above. We both have Nagra PLL's on the Nagra VFS anti vibration plates. I am sure there are better preamps...but this one seems to do almost everything pretty right, little wrong.
I did compare it Aesthetix Callisto (much bigger stage) Ayre KXR, much better resolution/more quiet and my BAT VK51SE (more umpph in the mids)...the nagra just seems to split things down the middle.
One day soon I do want to try the Lamm and the Allnic (another to add to your list) |
hi Jfrech, these are the comparison comments i like to hear. thanks very much for the info. i agree with you on Callisto & Ayre, both which i had heard. I had not heard Allnic but from the reviews i gather, it seems sound similar to JE audio VL10.1 i would have consider both of these as well but, no avail demo. I won't feel good asking them to open up a new box for audition then not buying it.
i had requested an audition for Nagra, hope dealer can retrieve back the item on loan |
Phillip,
I`m a strong believer in the virtues of high quality active linestages. Others would certainly disagree and prefer direct source-amplifier or a high quality passive. Have you given any thought to trying the LightSpeed or something similar before commiting to an active ?
Regards, |
Hello Philipwu
Maybe I missed it but where are you located? We have many customer that are at times willing to let people hear their Purity Audio Design preamps. It would depend on your location and what model might be available in that area. |
hi Charles,
i have not heard any passive. while most people would definitely say matching is very important when using a passive, i personally think individual taste and music complexity are more influential in developing a person's opinion and judgement. From the reviews of passive linestage, although different opinions were formed, they all share common underlining problem, that is dynamics & attack weren't as good to actives, which is crucial to my genre of music, hence not interested. Thanks for mentioning :) |
Phillip,
That`s my personal conclusion as well, but I recognize we all have our own opinions and experiences. I was`nt sure of your perspective or past exposure.
Regards, |
Some tube options I am familiar with-BAT Rex, either Allnic L-3000 or L-5000. With the quality of sound available with either format you could consider Edge, Pass labs, Burmester, Moon Evolution, Ayre |
Thanks Fossda, i did hear Passlabs X-20, Moon Evolution and Ayre. Allnic, Bat Rex were suggested here but i couldn't get an audition. I find PASSLabs overall lack the airyness, separation of instruments compared to Moon P-8 but P-8 itself sound abit sterile/ hard in the notes decay and slightly more "forward" than Pass, however, overall P-8 is one of the best for doing almost everything right. Ayre is almost perfect but i need Volume Left/Right Balance. Edge, Burmester has no demo. |
