NOS Western Electric wire used for power cables??

Fuzzbutt17

The wire was used for telephone voice transmission.

I can only GUESS that is was optimized since it has AMAZING resolution in this area and not so good response at the extremes.

It's wire. Fundamentally no different than any other wire of the same gauge. There's noting you're going to do to a wire to optimize it for voice. That's done in the electronics used at the ends of the wire, not the wire itself.

Magnets have no effect?

A magnetic field will have no effect, no. The material the magnet is made of may have some effect however.

Tell that to the companies that are using them and the 10's of thousands of people that purchased these products.

Ok.

All you tens of thousands of people that purchased these products, a magnetic field will have no effect on noise.

Tell that to recording studios that purchased magnet based AC filter and grounding devices that sell for over $100K.

Ok.

You recording studios that purchased magnet based AC filter and grounding devices that sell for over $100,000, a magnetic field will have no effect on noise.

You could also tell the DOZENS of customers that sold their expensive digital cables and replaced them with my magnetic digital cables that they wasted their $$$ (good luck with that one).

I never tell people they wasted their money. It's their money to spend however they wish for whatever reason they wish.

But it doesn't change the fact that a magnetic field isn't going to have any effect on noise.

If there's any effect at all, it will be due to the material the magnet is made of.

Then again, maybe magnets cause auditory hallucinations that make all of us THINK they sound better?

Well, telling people that magnets (or whatever you care to name) can make something sound better can certainly have an influence on their subjective perceptions even if whatever it is is doing nothing at all.

In fact, it's trivially easy to get people to perceive differences even when there are none.

That's why subjective experience alone is of limited value when it comes to determining what is actually going on and why one shouldn't make objective claims as to what is actually going on based on subjective experience.

I'm all for people going with whatever sounds best to them whatever the reason might be. At the end of the day, this should all be about pleasure and enjoyment.

I only have problems when people try and extrapolate beyond that and start making claims for which there is no substantial support.

By the way, exactly what magnet based AC filter and grounding device are you referring to that sells for over $100,000?

I won't tell you who sells magnet based AC filters and grounding devices out of respect for the owner of the company who is a friend of mine.

He doesn't engage in forums and he warned me about the same.

Apparently he told me that there are some people on forums that seem to know nearly everything about everything and make it their mission in life to explain away anything they don't understand whether or not they've personally tested it or not.

I don't know WHY many things work.

I do know that when I do my R&D testing I am as objective as possible and try to make IDENTICAL components with only ONE difference between them.

Once I come up with what I consider to be an improvement I then send it to my blind testers for comparison (they are "blind" not "deaf").

I then collect the sum of the responses and attempt to draw conclusions.

Some good examples of surprising conclusions of the past year had to do with wire gauges for certain applications and the use of ferrite cores on AC power.

After EXTENSIVE testing the consensus (that makes NO logical sense) was that my 8AWG power cords sounded better on EVERYTHING...even low current draw gear like DACs and phono stages.

Silly me...I originally was telling people to follow the LOGICAL and RECOMMENDED path and to use my 14AWG power cords on low current gear (CD, DAC, phono), the 10AWG on higher current draw gear (like amps), and the 8AWG only on very high current draw gear like power conditioners and high power amps.

I was VERY wrong and this was pointed out to me by my beta testers.

I also started making a digital power cord with a ferrite core. Once again, this is what is ACCEPTED as correct with good LOGICAL support.

In the end we discovered that only CERTAIN digital gear sounded better with ferrite cores and that MOST digital gear sounded better with my Cross-Helix and no ferrite.

Now I offer clip on ferrite cores to allow my customers to decide for themselves if the ferrite makes an improvement in their system.

Silly me...wrong again.

Lucky for me I have beta testers with minds and ears of their own to straighten me out when I THINK I know what I'm doing but obviously don't.

Wait a minute...isn't the basis for the scientific process...you start with a theory and then test it?

Possibly that's how it was eventually determined that the world wasn't flat, that the Earth revolves around the sun, that the moon isn't made of green cheese, that man could fly, and that Coke Classic tasted better than New Coke.

Once again, I don't claim to be a genius.

I don't claim to have any original idea...I study the "classics"...I study "new concepts"...learn new things from just about everyone.

I'm just a guy with limited technical expertise and a pretty good pair of ears.

I also have a diverse group of beta testers with diverse types of audio gear that they set up in very different rooms and use to listen to very different types of music.

I first listen to my prototypes and then I listen to my beta testers.

Seems to be working for me so far.

Fuzzbutt17

I won't tell you who sells magnet based AC filters and grounding devices out of respect for the owner of the company who is a friend of mine.

Then you should never have made any mention of it at all.

He doesn't engage in forums and he warned me about the same.

Apparently he told me that there are some people on forums that seem to know nearly everything about everything and make it their mission in life to explain away anything they don't understand whether or not they've personally tested it or not.

It's been my experience that it's usually the quacks and charlatans who avoid the daylight. If the claims are legitimate, they won't be able to be explained away. If they can, then the claims being made clearly aren't fully fleshed out.

I don't know WHY many things work.

First you have to define what you mean by "work."

Do you mean "work" as in it produces an actual audible difference or improvement? Or do you mean "work" as in someone simply subjectively perceived some difference?

If the former, then you have to first determine that the thing you're talking about actually does "work." Otherwise you'll never get to the WHY part.

If the latter, then there's simply no point in even wondering WHY, as it could be any number of things including purely psychological reasons.

I do know that when I do my R&D testing I am as objective as possible and try to make IDENTICAL components with only ONE difference between them.

As long as you're just relying on your subjective experience, then you're not being objective in any meaningful sense of the word.

Once I come up with what I consider to be an improvement I then send it to my blind testers for comparison (they are "blind" not "deaf").

If you're sending it to your testers and they're comparing it to an old version, then they're not blind at all.

Lucky for me I have beta testers with minds and ears of their own to straighten me out when I THINK I know what I'm doing but obviously don't.

All you're effectively doing is marketing research, not establishing whether or not there's actually anything going on.

Tired of dancing. Let me END on this little bit to satisfy all the other readers (since it is obvious I could never satisfy you).

"Work" for me means that I hear better time, tune, and musical flow. This seems to be usually be accompanied with higher resolution, better layers, better spacial cues, etc.

Quite often the wire or component that I want to "work" is not the one that does. A perfect example of this would be Furutech connectors. I love the way they are built. The name is well known and respected.

The ONLY problem is that our "subjective" listening tests showed that the pure copper plug sets I'm now using that cost roughly 1/3 as much as the FI-11Cu sound (work) considerably better (as defined above).

All of us wanted the Furutech to win. I sent people 3 identical power cords made from wire that came from the same spool. One with basic brass Wattgate (my original standard), one with Furutech FI-11Cu (Furutech's most popular plugs), and one with a humble Chinese made pure "red copper" plug set.

100% of the beta testers preferred the humble Chinese pure copper plugs. Not some. Not most. All.

Another statistical FACT. In the past 12 months I got only 3 power cords returned on my 30-day guaranty for refund. All three had the same Furutech plug sets.

A similar test was done with the 8AWG wire. Granted, this wire didn't come off of the same spool as the other wires it was compared to. On the other hand, I continually go through spools with slightly different vintages so I have that statistical factor.

Originally I would send people a 14AWG and a 10AWG cord to let them both decide if they liked my power cords over their current reference and to decide which of the two they wanted on which of their gear. At that time I "hypothesized" That some pre amps may sound better with one vs. the other and that all low current draw components would sound better with 10AWG.

I found that when a person purchased a 14AWG by itself they kept it but when a person compared a 14AWG to a 10AWG they would either return the 14AWG in exchange for a 10AWG or order only more 10AWG.

A similar thing happened with the 8AWG. One of my customers (against my advice) ordered a pair of 8AWG for their amps. One of my distributors did the same thing. I thought they were "over-compensating" but as they say, "the customer is always right."

Soon that same distributor ordered more and more of the 8AWG cords and told me he preferred them in his entire demo system. He only sold the 10AWG to customers on a budget.

At this point I did a similar test with 10AWG vs. 8AWG for myself...this guy was right...they do sound more open, detailed, and effortless than the 10AWG even on a CD player or phono stage.

I then did a beta test and 100% of the testers had the same results...the 8AWG was preferred.

People didn't WANT to spend more for the 8AWG. The 8AWG is HUGE and less flexible. The whole thing makes no sense.

Another statistic: since I switched to the pure copper plug sets I haven't got ONE power cord returned for refund (and I've sold 10X as many cords or more).

Another statistic: when I now send customers a 10AWG and an 8AWG to compare I only get the 10AWG returned for exchange.

Another statistic: since I've been recommending my 8AWG Cross-Helix as my best sounding power cord for ANY situation I have had DOZENS of high end customers with $30K+ systems and about a dozen with $100K+ systems that ALL replaced their "whose who" $2K5+ power cords with Stereophile class A ratings and full page adds in magazines with my humble 8AWG.

Another definition of "work" is my level of customer satisfaction. My sales have gone up 4X what they were around Xmas. My returns for refund or replacement have been ZERO since I started recommending the 8AWG as #1 and took the 14AWG from my recommended products list.

I started this business as a HOBBY and had NO IDEA I would do 10% as many sales as I have. I simply know what sound I preferred and made products that pleased my "subjective" testing.

Apparently there are a good number of audiophiles that agree with my "subjective" testing and my criteria that time, tune, musical flow, and organic timbers are most important and other "audiophile" attributes such as "extension, image, depth, and dynamics" are less important.

One last thing...

What is it that YOU do?

How much have YOU sold of original products internationally?

What is the rate of growth of YOUR sales?

As for my friend that arguably makes the finest AC power conditioners and grounding systems in the world. You remember...the one you say is "hiding in the shadows."

Everyone told him a $35K power conditioner was a STUPID idea and would never sell. Everyone told him a $12K grounding system was STUPID and would never sell.

FYI: a $100K system uses more than one of each of these for use in a large building that holds a recording studio.

Lucky he didn't listen to EVERYONE. He now has distributors all over the planet and is quite popular with the "over $250K system" crowd. He has offers by many of the "whose who" to put his power conditioners in their rooms at CES, Rocky Mountain, and other well known audiophile trade shows.

Is he hiding in the shadows?

NO.

He has just learned that it is a WASTE OF TIME to debate things on a forum with a know-it-all like you. He no longer justifies your claims with an answer because he rolls with the "whose who" crowd and has NOTHING to prove.

As for me, I'll leave you with TWO thoughts:

There is a distinctive difference between a person with 30 years experience and one year's experience repeated 30X.

Also...

The difference between knowledge and wisdom is knowledge is TAUGHT and wisdom is EARNED through EXPERIENCE.

I continue to TEST new "theories" and then to confirm my findings with my beta testers and my customer base.

What new ideas or concepts have YOU tested recently?

I wish I could say this has been a pleasure, but it's been more like giving my cat a flea bath.

I'll be interested in seeing your answers to my questions (if you dare) but I won't be responding again.

I only continued with this thread for the benefit of OTHERS and not you.

From now on, I hope to take my more experienced friend's advice and stay off forums.

All the best to everyone.

Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or comments about my products.

Much of what I know I learned from my customers.

Benjamin