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Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,614 posts
 

There is actually a revolution in acoustics, where it is demonstrated that there is physical invariant perceived by ears/brain/body and selected by pitch and tone filtering, informing us of the vibrating sound source qualities... Sound qualities are transmitted by waves but are not waves themselves.Sound qualities are directly perceived meanings through waves but not reducible to waves.There is always a physical invariant behind the perception of sound,a vibrating sound source empty or full, wood or metal, with or without this or that qualities etc

These facts confirmed the ecological hearing perception theory i used when debating Amir about sound perceptions superstitious use of tools . The Fourier maps are not identical with the hearing territory ...They are maps not the territory...

https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html

These two studies confirmed my point against him ...These studies invalidate Pythagorician theory non ecological theory about hearing ...

https://neurosciencenews.com/music-body-emotion-25664/

https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2308859121

https://phys.org/news/2024-02-pythagoras-wrong-universal-musical-harmonies.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267327268_The_Body-Image_Theory_of_Sound_An_Ecological_Approach_to_Speech_and_Music

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45812-z

Amir did not understood my points at all at this time ... No scientific studies can debunk ideological propagandist...he will not understood them today it will debunk his business.. 😁 Searching for truth is not the same that building a cult or an audiophile site around ourself...So useful it could be... 😊

 

😊

The Revel dealer’s forum had fallen off my radar (when I got the useless gist of it), until a couple of guys on my listserv mentioned they had been banned for politely disagreeing on some measurement crap, like what is audible or not...In other words, his clan is suppressing anything that deviates from the caricature he paints, in the name of ’science’. But, here he is.

There are specific religions, where the land is no longer secular by law, if members of that specific religion become a majority. The lands where other religions are a majority seem to remain secular by law. You go to that intolerant land and you will have no rights, if you belong to any minority religion. But, when these intolerant fanatics come over to other secular lands (in search of fortunes or whatever), they are real Fin happy with the tolerance, secular laws and the ability to have all their rights (be themselves, speak their minds).

Draw parallels as you wish between the fanatic forum and the rest of em ...

robshaw
223 posts
 

I have owned a pair of Tekton Double Impact speakers for 2 years now. (Rock and Roll only) I researched and decided I would try them. There were many view points that I had read that were not favorable about Tekton, but, based upon my interactions with Eric himself on several occasions, I decided to give them a shot. Note, customer service is everything to me.  He was always friendly and helpful, and never appeared to be short with me, no matter how many stupid questions I had!  Note: W/O going into my entire system, which happens to be quite nice IMO, AMP is Pass x250.8 / usually listened to in class A.   He always kept in contact until they were received, and verified accepted and OK. I appreciated the hand holding, my first relatively  expensive speakers. To jump ahead, They are scheduled to arrive Tuesday, 4/23/24 via TForce freight,  a brand new ( Expensive ) for me, a pair of Tekton  Encores (special Edition) regarded as Faital Pro 12" ( 3rd pair made and shipped Ser# 5&6)  the earlier pair made was destroyed while shipping to Fed Ex depot near me. Eric and his staff made every effort to keep me posted with the news. Less than a month later a special NEW pair were made and shipped, Again customer service was THERE!! I cant wait to receive and hear them. I will post after some burn in. All these comments are based on actual conversations and events. Until something changes, all I can say is that I am quite impressed as to how I have been treated. Robert Shaw TN

pindac's avatar
pindac
2,417 posts
 

I have stated in other threads and will once more state it in this thread, that there is too much focus on one element of why audio has an attraction.

As sound is the important end product, as a result of the math produced to manage electronic signal transfer.

Analysis of the math, which is a substantial proportion of the reviews being produced on asr and now the methodologies used by the controllers of the asr site being analytically discussed in this thread. 

There is a more valuable approach which could be referred to as Holistic, but there is certainly the Chemistry of the Brain to be considered.  

As difficult as it may be take on board, there are other factors at play that encourages an individual to bond/wedded to a particular sound, oor find a place where they feel most satisfied.

The Human Brain has the Amygdala at the frontal section of the Limbic System.  The Amygdala is the receiver of what is present in the environment, through the Bodies Sensory Receptors creating the Bodies response to the environment.

Each individual is totally unique in their reaction to environment and the Amygdala is the first section of the Brain to process the Sensory Information, with immediate  creation of a chemical signal within the Brain. It is this chemistry that is the fundamental influence on producing an individual to be unique in their reaction. It is a survival trigger and not able to be controlled prior to the chemistry being triggered.

It is claimed the info passing through the Brain forming chemistry travels at 260mph and the chemical changes in the Brain occur approx' 10K- 12k per second. Quarter of the Bodies Oxygen intake fuels this vital activity for Life and Survival.

Sound is very much part of the environment, and by being perceived in the local  environment, becomes a factor in the effect had on the Amygdala, hence the individual exposed to the sound will have a reaction to it.

Sounds effect on the Amygdala, is the dictator of whether the individual will receive stimulation to remain or remove themselves from the experience they are exposed to.

No one has a influence over the initial stimulus created from the Amygdala function, even though one can rationalise, if not feeling fearful as a result of the stimulus, but discomfort is also a likely feeling created.

In many many cases an individual exposed to a screech on a Chalkboard will Cup a Hand over a ear, this is not a choice made but a reaction to a stimulus. Each Individual will not have a reaction that measures to the same time taken to react, there will be variation.

The sound from the Chalkboard and Sound produced as a result of an Audio System are no different, both are encountered in the local environment. The repelling of the sound, is not a choice but a reaction to stimulus created following the exposure of the sound to the Amygdala.   

The same can be said for the acceptance and willingness to expose oneself to enduring the Sound being encountered, it s not by choice.

Beat me Up, all you like about this not so usual description, but it is with a large proportion of being accurate.

How many have bought devices to produce sound, inclusive of myself, resulting from an influence on their eyes and intellect only. To be met with repelling the devoice with the influence of being exposed to the sound produced becoming part of the experience. I have a few of these behind myself.

Was that a choice made or a reaction to the environment controlled by the Amygdala? 

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
12,614 posts
 

Between the amygdala and the ears canal and the brain/body processing of sound there is a world of processing...😊

Psychoacoustics explain it...

Read the many articles in my post above...

The reaction of a chalk board scratch is instinctive because there is no interesting and pleasing information to retrieve in it...

This does not means that all our reactions to a piece of gear will result from the subjectivity programmed history associated with our amigdala... The reason why sound please us is because sound convey meanings our brain/body recognize and create .

Tio explain how sound convey meanings we must study first psychoacoustics not study first amygdala reactive history ...

 

then you are right here :

Sound is very much part of the environment, and by being perceived in the local environment, becomes a factor in the effect had on the Amygdala, hence the individual exposed to the sound will have a reaction to it.

 

This reaction you spoke about is most of the times a TRAINED  reaction because all sounds convey  qualitative meanings.. (qualia)

But this does not prove that our sound reaction is motivated first and last by our amygdala alone, it is motivated by our ears/brain/body information retrieval skills acquired in our evolutive social history with speech and music and natural sounds interaction .

then what you say here is not even wrong but beside the main problem of sound meanings and recognition and appreciation :

Sounds effect on the Amygdala, is the dictator of whether the individual will receive stimulation to remain or remove themselves from the experience they are exposed to.

mapman's avatar
mapman
21,853 posts
 

In general some forms of distortion are more undesirable than others. I suppose the Amygdala has something to do with that. It’s good to understand why and how we respond the way we do (each differently to some extent). So it’s true there is more to what appeals to us in sound than low distortion, but that does not change the fact that distortion exists and it’s also a good thing to understand that as well in each case. Distortion does matter. There are several pieces to every puzzle. 

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