Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Klippel is actually better than anechoic. For example, at the NRC the chamber is only good to around 80hz....it’s just too small.

I’m not arguing this at all. I’m just saying that, by definition, it’s quasi. :) The results may be better than anechoic, but the measurements are considered quasi.  We are estimating an anechoic response even though the measurements themselves were not done in an anechoic environment.

Fortunately for low frequencies we have ground plane measurements, which I believe are actually anechoic... but I’ll leave that to the scientists to debate. :-)

I’m really glad we have all the modern tools for speaker measurement and design, certainly nice to see them trickle down to being affordable for DIY enthusiasts.

8th-note; I really like your response here. And Mapman you make some great points also.  I think when we see speaker auditions we all take it with a grain of salt when it comes to a reviewer stating their listening experience.  But even the best review magazines put their products on the pedestal under some type of measurement.  As all these posts have proven people come into this subject with their own predispositions -- like MOST of these posts. I can't afford the high end gear and when I wanted a new DAC I did a ton of research -- and Amir's analysis of a Gustard X16 sealed the deal for me and I loved the product. I have upgraded the interconnects as money permits and the sound gets better all the time. As we all know once you start buying components from multiple companies the only way to ensure a major mismatch is to shoot for neutrality. But in the same vein I've had a neutral system that sounded degraded on 89% of commercial music.  So adding our own colorations to suit our tate has a place here. Like tubes and SS there will always be 2 camps.

 

@amir_asr   I see you've been a member here for a couple years.  I would be very interested in seeing your home system.  Please take some time to post pictures and a list of equipment in the virtual system section of the site.  I have asked all members to post their system in the past.  I think we all enjoy seeing and learning from how other members have set up a system.  IMHO.  Cheers.

I’m not arguing this at all. I’m just saying that, by definition, it’s quasi. :) The results may be better than anechoic, but the measurements are considered quasi.  We are estimating an anechoic response even though the measurements themselves were not done in an anechoic environment.

Nope.  There is no "estimation" going on.  Klippel NFS makes dual scans separated by fixed distance.  This allows it to then detect the direct sound vs reflected sound due to phase differential.  The reflections are then filtered computationally.  This is what makes it superior to anechoic chambers which lose that characteristics at lower frequencies.  There is nothing "pseudo" about that.

Gated measurements are called "pseudo" because they lack low frequency resolution.  That makes them an estimate that is good at mid to high frequencies but not bass.  Klippel NFS solves this problem (and with higher SNR to boot).

"Fortunately for low frequencies we have ground plane measurements, which I believe are actually anechoic... but I’ll leave that to the scientists to debate. :-)"

Ground plane measurements have sources of error.  And require stitching to the gated measurements which again, can introduce errors. 

To be sure, you can get really good results with ground plane+gated measurements but it is very tedious.  See this post from our resident expert in that field: 

 

The fundamental problem with ASR and the like is that they believe everything that is meaningful regarding sound reproduction can be measured. In fact, the opposite is mostly true. Most things that can be heard to sound different (and judged to be better by everyone in the room) CANNOT be measured. Here is a list of things that cannot be measured;

1. Wire......all brands and types and whether is is cryoed and which direction you use it in......all SOUND different. Thousands of posts worldwide attesting to this.

2. Resistors.......all brands of resistors and types all sound different....even if they are the same inductance and general material. For instance, I ABed four different tiny surface mount resistors that were using the same material and all were the same size......all sounded different from each other.

3. Capacitors......right now a lot of people all over the world are upgrading their caps in their preamp, amp and speakers. Tons of posts about this all over the net.

4. Connectors.....yes, they all sound different. The guy at Qualio audio stated that the WBT nextgens were the ones for his speakers.

5. Solder......yes, all brands of solder sound different. I did straight wire bypass tests on 5 different types of solder in the early 80s. The reference was 5 inch pieces of wire and then we would solder 5 solder joints onto another piece of the same wire and A/B with the wire without solder joints.....none of the brands of solder passed the test. We chose this custom silver solder as the best and ordered a bunch but 6 months later that latest Wonder Solder was better.....

6. All cables sound different.....interconnect, digital cables, HDMI cables, ethernet cables, power cables, and speaker cables......the best connector is NONE....hard wire whenever possible.

7. Footers and stands all sound different.

8. Getting cables off the floor improves sound.

9. infinity.....everything sounds different.....he he.

Practically nothing above can be measured.....but it all CAN be heard. The die hard believers in the opposite of what I just stated will never listen to find out whether what I just stated is true or not. Here is a story that illustrates this:

3 buddies were invited over to someones house who owned modified Soundlabs speaker and a super front end. One of the 3 was someone who believed that amps sound different but not interconnects......he brough his new buddy who was new to audio and had told this newby about his point of view about wire. One of the other guys brought this cable (remember the peanut butter and jelly cable by Kimber?) to A/B with my friends super litz cable that he got the idea of in a dream. When they went to A/B the cables the non believer went into the kitchen so he would not have to be in the room. Of course, he could hear the sound from the kitchen and hear their commentary. All three in the room heard the same differences (quite marked). After they were done the non believer pulled his head our the the sand and rejoined them. They did even bother trying to talk to him about what they heard for they knew he was stubborn. If he would have stayed in the room and heard the difference he would have been WRONG for all those years. And if he stayed and then stated that they both sounded the same then he would have been given the stare by them......meaning...Are you deaf? They would never trust what he says again. Of course, the ego cannot handle those two scenarios......so best just to avoid listening.

This is what is going on in the objectivist camp.....they just keep stating the same things over and over and then go onto forums where 90% believe otherwise and point fingrers. Of course, they kick off their forum anyone who looks like the enemy.....they kicked me off. Once they saw that I sell and promote things that cannot be measured they started calling me a thief and con man........and we don’t want thiefs and conmen on our forum now, do we. They claim that I pray on the gullible.......what a laugh. I sell my inexpensive tweaks with a 30 day money back quarantee and everyone likes them......must be a lot of fools out there.....I mean, you cannot trust your own hearing. Who is more gullible? The people that try things in their own homes and decide for themselves or a bunch of followers of a cult that professes to have all the answers?

It certainly is simpler and cheaper to be an objectivist.....heck you just need any old source, a $700 preamp....a $700 DAC a $1000 amp, $1 a foot cables and whatever cheap speakers that measure flat and can handle power and you are good to go. If the latest DAC measures slightly better then you could or could not "upgrade".....since there really is no upgrading because what you have now is perfect. Yes, indeed a gullible illusion. REAL SCIENTISTS actually try things. The best INSTRUMENT for measuring sound reality is your EARS. However, you must have your heart and mind open to begin down the road of true knowledge.....If you live in your righteous ego based mind....you will never know the truth.

What I just stated is not going to convince anyone to shift their position. As long as the ego remains the supreme ruler we will never agree......the ego likes separation and fighting. The heart loves unity and oneness. I love everyone.....no matter what your silly mind thinks......and I know your soul.....in every one of you....loves me. Kisses and Hugs for everyone......forever. You are all infinitly beautfful.