Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

I think that ASR has chosen an extreme stance not for any particular reason except to incite an even greater amount of tribalism in this hobby.

Nope.  The "stance" I have taken is follow proper science and engineering.  This uses to be the norm in 1970s and 1980s.  Sometime later, folks started to abandoned this and instead, started to tell stories about products.  Audiophiles bought them and this allowed the market to deliver all manner of products that when tested, don't seem to perform.  Instead of doing their best to produce high fidelity gear, a lot of audio companies rely completely on marketing and informercials pretending to be reviews.

As consumers, you need to be more critical and ask for proof.  Don't equate expense with fidelity.  That equation has long been thrown out the door.

 

I just don’t see the value in a site that constantly throws shade on high end gear. IMHO

I have no such position on high-end gear. My speakers alone cost $25,000 a pair. Give me the performance and you can charge whatever you want. Give me poor performance and charge a lot of money and we show data to demonstrate that. The choice is that of manufacturer.

Now, if you value status and marketing of audio products more than fidelity, then sure, we are at odds with your goals.

Interesting exchange, mostly. Bashing ASR seems like a ridiculous thing to do. Nice to see Erik taking a swing at some rational elements in play and Amir for correcting what he considers false or inaccurate claims.

There are many things about measurement I don’t understand, but I don’t dismiss their general relevance.

Two things stand most in the way for me about the usefulness of measurements:

1. How does a given measurement translate into something I might be able to hear (or perceive), and what words would I use for the subjective experience?

2. How important is a measurement, overall, for a piece of equipment’s performance -- and in what ways would I be able to hear (perceive) that measurement’s impact?

Complicating (1) and (2) of course is the lack of a common and accurate vocabulary for what we perceive and also our room’s contributions. (And I’m not even mentioning taste/preference.)

The above problems I have with measurement are, in part, my lack of understanding; the other part of the problem is the lack of a "Rosetta stone" connecting the vocabularies of objective measurement and subjective description of perception. But these two problems are not with measurement, per se.

And yes, there are those who want to avoid the whole complicated mess by *just* going with measurements or *just* going with description (stories), but to my mind this just amounts to an obstinate refusal to engage with the complexities. (And neither Amir nor Erik do this, N.B.)

Amir, almost no one disputes that measurements are an important contribution to evaluating hifi gear.

The problem I have with ASR and its followers is the routine contempt heaped on anyone with a different POV from ASR gospel. 

Apropos, for me, it is the underlying arrogance born of groupthink that stinks also of Narcissism.

I admit only casually having looked at ASR and I don't recall but wonder if they include measurements relating to dynamic linearity, how linear relative to input level changes(from micro to mini to midi to macro changes) and this should also relate to these changes versus frequency. I find this type of change may be the most significant(should never be the only one) factor in a speaker producing the illusion of reality.