I certainly appreciate this conversation and while some of us may disagree, that's okay because we are dealing with something completely brand new....at least for us lay people, I won't go into it here but I will argue until I'm blue in the face that AI is not a source of creativity equal to that of the consciousness of humans. And whatever is said about music being adapted and re-framed from previous music I would argue that while there are a limited number of notes available and a human frequency spectrum of ~20-20K hz, coming up with creative tunings of instruments and creative lyrics is not a matter of previous work unless using very broad interpretation. I do wish to thank everyone for all of their contributions to this thread because I think it is important to understand and debate this topic.
A.I. music
Possibly of interest: "the current rush to advance generative AI technology could be "spiritually, politically, and economically" corrosive. By effectively removing people, like musicians, from algorithms and tech that create new content, elements of society that were once connections between people are turned into "objects" that become less interesting and meaningful, Lanier explained.
"As soon as you have the algorithms taking music from musicians, mashing it up into new music, and then not paying the musicians, gradually you start to undermine the economy because what happens to musicians now happens to everybody later," Lanier said.
He noted that, while this year has been the "year of AI," next year the world is going to be "flooded, flooded with AI-generated music."
https://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-jaron-lanier-ai-advancing-without-human-dignity-undermines-everything-2023-10
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The Quantum Origin of Life: How the Brain Evolved to Feel Goodby Stuart Hameroff https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B978012420190300020X
We are all in the evolution starting point and end point simultaneously , which point is related to que inner question "how to feel good"...Because the Source of life is eternal joy...
But feeling really good in this material world is not just a sensual impression related to the body state... It is also a conscious inspired , imagined and intuited impression coming from the source of all life.... This is also the source and goal of music as a body/soul gesture which is the craddle of language itself .. No A. I. will ever reproduce this gesture of the body/soul... Life cannot die nor the soul which is only the clock hierarchical musical ladder around the timeless source coming from and returning to it. In fact always united with the source. Because this pure joy is the moving wave of the universal information field of the creative cosmic memory.. As i said i think this field is mathematically projected in the geometry of the prime number distributions.. No algorithm can replace it , only imitate it or used it... To resume Anirban Bandyopadhyay theory of consciousness , which is grounded in time not grounded as all others theories first and last in space material content : «These theories of consciousness emphasize on spatial material, but consciousness may not be located in any particular space. It may arise from the collective vibrations of matter, which create a complex information structure made of discrete times. A more complete theory of consciousness may need to reject space altogether and focus only on the structure of time in nature. That could be a starting point.» In A.B. time and the prime number matrix play the main role... Here is the important point. it is my opinion here not the opinion of A. B. here. The matrix constituting the future artificial consciousness which is coming soon will imply a finite number of primes in the constitutive matrix. But the cosmic field of information is infinite because the number of prime is infinite.The root of all living soul is then infinite not finite because all life is ONE. We have a soul, but A. C. or artificial consciousness even if autonomous being will be just a conscious machine not soul... There will be no unconsciousness in A.C. as there is one in all life cells. The unconscious is reflection of all there is in the source which is not accessible immediately . Searle is wrong by the way saying the existence of an unconscious is incoherent . Now It is possible to ask the most important spiritual question : why are we creating an artificial "soul" which will never be grounded in life unity but only grounded by his temporal matrix forever finite prime hierarchies to the material world and not to the ultimate infinite field and then this A.C. will stay captive of this material world and will die forever ? This is heavy responsability for us his creator to create a councious mortal being... is a "soul" will be given or can be given to these A.C. or replicant ? I dont know... It is the question of this replicant in this absolutely marvellous movie ending
Listen to the movie Blade runner last scene and this ultimate question asked by the replicant a question formulated as an ultimate poem... The replicant give an idea about what is a pure A. C. as designed by the genius of Anirban Bandyopadhyay: the dying replicant ask why he will die forever ?
This question is not new. Mary Shelly asked it through his Frankenstein creation, in the midst of materialism triumphant. The Blade Runner question is asked in the techno-cultist transhumanist era. Poets know more than mathematician. No great mathematician anyway can be great without being a poet.Ask Grothendieck, Cantor, Ramanujan, they are all mystics or poets... If not poet engineers or accountants but not mathematical genius.😊
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Another perspective: We think of intelligence as an individual thing. But another way to look at it is as a collective thing. We are smart (so we say!). We do complex biology and math and manufacturing to kill a bunch of bacteria with an antibiotic that we designed. But, while individual bacteria are very, very, stupid (unthinking, most would agree), there are billions and billions of them. And they reproduce every second or so. And they mutate. Most of them die because of this new antibiotic they've been exposed to, but a few of them mutate to be resistant. And soon enough, there are billions of the new, antibiotic-resistant bacteria. These bacteria have collectively said, "F- you! We outsmarted your stupid vaccine..." So collectively, they are smart. You can view collective intelligence as the intelligence of individuals times the number of individuals times the reproduction (read: evolution) rate. In the middle of the spectrum between bacteria and humans are ants and bees. Now think of AIs. Are they creative? Well, first, how creative are we? For 1000 years of western music, we had only what we'd call the "white notes" on the piano -- the 7 "natural" notes. Bb was discovered/invented in medieval times. It took another almost half century to figure out the rest of the black notes on the keyboard (i.e., all the key signatures that we recognize today). Looking at the population of Europe in the year 1000 (36 million) and the year 1500 (61 million), that equates to about 25 billion people-years to develop the chromatic scale and related key signatures. Is that "creativity"? Look at what AIs can do now compared to ten years ago. A researcher was recently doing some prompt engineering on a large language model (LLM), and the LLM said to him, "Hey, it looks like you're trying to engineer my prompt..." Do I think it's "intelligent" right now? No. But in 30 years, AIs will be a billion times faster than they are today (just due to Moore's Law). A billion times today's abilities likely will be emulating consciousness, if not actually being functionally conscious. Thirty years later, they will be yet another billion times faster. A quintillion times faster than today. It's unimaginable. And millions or billions of AIs (since copying them is as cheap as multiplying bacteria), each a quintillion times more powerful than today. Much in the same way that we can't fathom evolution over a billion years in anything but the most abstract terms (how do you get from a paramecium to a human?!?), we just can't fathom this computing change. There's no visceral reaction to such numbers; humans are not built to understand those timescales or magnitudes. But AIs will be able to do things we can't even imagine today. And that's in 60 years, well within a human lifespan. If it took us 500 years to invent the black keys on a keyboard, how long do you think it will take something with a quintillion times the "intelligence" of today's AIs to posit and test the successors to Einstein's theories? AIs will be things as smart or smarter than us that can multiply as fast as bacteria. The best of both worlds. |
Very good post for all of us and that supplement well the discussion ...Thanks you ...
This is so true that this collective intelligence was discovered recently for insects only in sociobiology studies (Wilson) and by others about the cells , bacteria and viruses etc ...
In psychology this collective intelligence is called "unconscious" by his discoverer Carl Gustav Jung why ? ( as i said Searle is wrong and dont understand why is the unconconscious stating that it is an uncoherent idea, materialism blind him )
Because no individual cells or insects know consciously as an individual what the collective intelligence knows...
Then we must realize that this collective intelligence is in reality a collective unconscious in relation with each individuals be it a cell or a human...
Now we must realize that the actual A.I. design ( which is not A.C. as designed by Anirban which i spoke of above) the actual A.I. design with LLM models takes all his information from the accumulated information of the human species at it is written on the web... Not as it is in an unspoken state in the collective human unconscious... )Please think about this deep distinction and its meaning i just make .
This A. I. is then only ONE MODE among others of tapping the human collective unconscious...
There is another mode to do it by creative human : meditation, studies and altered stated of consciousness in dreams in walking in Nature with psychotropic substance , with prayers as Ramanujan the greatest mathematician since Archimedes and Gauss etc ...
This second modality to tap the collective human unconscious, which is not a reading of all internet information bits, is completely different than A.I. and gave to human way more than just "intelligence" or "information" but what we called "wisdom" and judgement in the development of not only a mere unconscious intelligence as the ants which almost do anything human does but gave us a CONSCIOUS individuality not a mere unconscious individuality...
Judgement is not reducible to logical computation because judgement imply contextual meaning... And meaning transcend any of his narrow manifestations and unify them...
it is so true that language exceed in complexities our actual maths modelization... it is too complex... It is very easy for a man or a machine to learn language but it is not as easy to understand it... Why ? Because language is infinite on not one level but infinite on at least three semiotic levels : phonological, syntaxical and semantical (and pragmatical )... None of these levels is reducible to the others... No signs are arbitrary here , Saussure dogma about signs arbitrarity is a pure convenient working hypothesis but is wrong as a theory and Peirce is right ... Anyway... ( it is the same in maths where we use statistics as a convenient working hypothesis to study primes numbers distribution but this hypothesis dont work as a theory to explain the primes distribution which dont obey statistics)
If i come back to the collective unconscious of human where intelligence is located, i can understand why the individuals manifested it and how he can contribute to it : the how is called the soul as conscious and unconscious, it is a cell immersed in a cosmic information field which is infinite...Not finite as the web information is anyway... The soul is the roots by which the human conscious spirit is immersed in meanings and translate all symbolic forms in information and vice versa through dreams among others phenomenon.
A.I. unlike humans , had no roots in the collective unconscious of human , only an indirect relation to written bits by the web and only in prosaic language mode the poetical mode is over A.I. .
A. I. has no body. And the soul is a manifested informed body in his conscious and unconscious appearence . A. I. what so ever his future progress could be, will stay a FINITE MORTAL entity forever...Human are not mortal finite entity nor any living organism... The conscious /unconscious soul which inform and designed them as tenmporary manifestation this informative field is eternal as all of his individual cells are... Death is a tool for life not a state...
And mathemathics itself is grounded in a non logical non created by human phenomenon : the prime numbers distribution geometry matrix which is an eternal meaningful dynamical field and cell... Anirban used it to design A.C. over simple A. I.
The best of both worlds will be trying to stay human in a sea of A. I. in a corpocratic tyrannical society too immature now for so much power...
The best of both worlds will be learning to stay human in spite of A. I. limitations and absolute control...
The history of science and the history of consciousness on earth are related. We must learn how to not replace diying materialism by techno cultism in a hive society controlled as in bad S-F by corporations...It is Kurzweil and Gates idolatry and ideology...
Anyway the problem is way more complex than your description...
A.I. is already surpassed by new works in synthetic biology, by completely new information theory and new non- algorythmic non- Turing geometrical language with a new maths which will make us human able to design A.C. or artificial consciousness... Here the spiritual stake is even higher... The threat is also higher... With A. C. we have an autonomous A.I. artificially conscious self developing in the real world not gathering bits from the web merely...It is all explained in the many books of the genius Anirban Bandyopadhyay i cited above...
It is urgent to understand what we are individually and collectively...
We are not a simulation of a brain computer grounded at the neurons levels . The brain does not compute, it is an orchestration playing at 12 orders of magnitude under the Neurons levels in mocrotubules. As demonstrated Hameroff with Anirban already. but more than that the consciousness phenomenon cannot be understood in material spatial content information. It is a phenomenon only understood through the concept of time and timing as demonstrated by Anirban in his many books since 2020... We are not simulations in a simulation as thought by Wolfram erroneously... As said Goethe we are an instantiation of the universal in the individual . Not a machine at all ....No living organism can be understood as pure machine. NONE...
Maths is not a game it is the pure symbolic abstraction of the living soul... The brain and the cosmos body must be unified as ONE soul... It is way over the unification of relativity and Quantum mechanics.
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I’m not so interested in discussing the meaning of “intelligence,” or whether AI is such as I am interested in discussing the implications of an already-difficult occupation, artist (in this case musical artist), now entailing a threat from computers. Really, really smart ones. |
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