Old CD player back from the dead—prompting many questions!


Now I have questions! (Caution: This may be boring)

For many years (almost 20) I ran a California Audio Labs Icon MkII CD player, purchased new for something like $1500 (a lot of $ back in the late 1990s, for me) and I gave up vinyl (yes, I am an old heretic). It was very highly rated back then.

About 6 years ago I was overhauling my whole system after my beloved 20 year old McCormack DNA-1 amp died (yes, I keep my gear a long time), so I put the CalAudio into deep storage, thinking it was old, and got a well-rated Rega Apollo CDP II cd player. $1200, iirc, and I was very happy with it. I don’t have super deep pockets for audio, and love great bang for the buck. I had been tempted a few years ago, before streaming, to get the Bryston CD player, which one reliable audio reviewer said could be his last CD player, but it was $4000. I just read glowing reviews last night of CD players for $10,000-20,000 but that ain’t happenin’!

Since then I have gone almost 100% to streaming (Small Green Computer Sonictransporter and Sonore MicroRendu, which may get upgraded soon to the Ultra or Optical model Rendu) using Tidal and Roon. In 2018 I bought a (well-reviewed by Robert Harley) DAC/preamp by Audio Alchemy, which I still use though I covet the new T+A 200 DAC/preamp and several other DACs. I am thinking of getting an integrated amp (Aesthetix Mimas) or mono blocks, and until I sort that out I am stuck in place. As they say, you only solve one variable in an equation at a time, and I hate auditioning. For me, if I won the lotto, I would hire a brilliant consultant to hold my hand and help me build my end-game system.

I kept and ripped all my 700+ CDs, but only occasionally play them. I have been pleasantly surprised that when I have A-B’d CD vs streamed hi-res and MQA tracks via Roon, the quality is very close and in the case of MQA, sometimes better (let’s not start an MQA argument!). This week, I fired up the Apollo and grabbed a few favorite CDs I use to audition gear at dealers, especially Alison Kraus & Union Station’s "New Favorite". My Apollo started skipping and stuttering! What the what? For 6 years it’s been flawless. I found their main non-warranty repair guy in CA and emailed and spoke to him, and learned that Rega has discontinued that Apollo II in favor of all-in-one CD/DAC players. Grrr. My unit is repairable for about $325 he thinks, so it will get shipped today. I continue to use it once repaired, and the CalAudio will be the backup. I am now reading CD player reviews but given I mostly stream I am reluctant to spend $3000-4000 on a CD player for occasional use and would rather plow that money into a DAC and other components.

I dug out the old CalAudio Icon to see if it still worked, as a backup. Everything lit up, the tray opened, but pressing play—nothing. Unresponsive—dammit. So, I left it on and ran some errands and a few hours later pressed play and voila! I had music. I guess after 6 years it needed time to awaken from its deep sleep. When I last used it it was before my DAC/preamp, and I used an RCA connection then to my old passive line stage, but this time I am using SPDIF/coax into my DAC/preamp. And it sounds great! A-B testing with Tidal/Roon and it is so very close, which means it is nearly or as good as the Rega Apollo. I am actually a bit shocked... this is a 25 year old CD player!

Now to the questions:

  1. Could the CalAudio still really be that good, or is my DAC not good enough to reveal that the Cal isn’t that good? Maybe I wasn’t getting full value from it when I used it all those years without a standalone DAC, and was using a passive line stage and the CalAudio’s internal DAC?
  2. How much better can CDs sound, with a better DAC and player? The guy repairing my Rega assured me that CDs played in a $6000 Audio Note CD player and with top shelf DAC (>$3000? $5000? $10,000?) will absolutely sound MUCH better than anything streamed. He was adamant. I am not yet convinced, but am I wrong?
  3. Is the DAC substantially more important than the player, ie, if keeping the Rega or CalAudio am I going to see a major improvement by bettering my DAC? Maybe a dumb question and the answer is "Duh!"
  4. I know all about the Law of Diminishing Returns in hi-fi, which is why I haven’t considered spending a lot more on a new CD player, but can the $4000 Bryston or an even "better" Audio Note be significantly better? 10% better for 4X the cost? 20% better? Mo bettah? I resist Death by $1000 Papercuts.
  5. When I read reviews it is with skepticism, of course. Here is a glowing review of the below-the-radar $2000 Sparkler Ballade CD player (from Japan?) by Marc Phillips: "Then you have the Sparkler Audio S515u “Ballade,” which is the best of both worlds. It’s not so expensive that you’ll talk yourself out of buying it when your existing CD player loses its laser assembly and becomes a 50-pound paperweight. More importantly, it sounds so musical and right, and it does it with panache and style. I could totally see myself in one of these babies, and never worry again about how I’m going to listen to CDs twenty years from now." I called the distributor in Canada, a very nice fellow named Victor Kung, who proceeded to tell me that unless I was using tube gear and a 300B single-ended amp, he wouldn’t want to sell me one. He said it doesn’t sound good with solid state amps and gear. Really? THAT is a new one for me. https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2022/09/16/sparkler-audio-s515u-ballade-cd-player-review/
  6. I think the smart money is on my upgrading my DAC, which will benefit my streaming, and then audition some CD players who I need/want to upgrade. Yes?
  7. My whole system is in flux, but I know the preamp is the heart, and that is why the T+A DAC/pre is appealing... a 2 for 1 box. Then choose the amp or keep mine (Odyssey Khartago+++) or switch to an integrated.

I would appreciate any thoughtful advice on CD players (to be used as a transport, though the really high-end ones often have excellent onboard DACS). How much is enough, the benefits of spending more than $1000-1500, etc. I have spent a ton of time reading DAC reviews and posts here.

Thanks for hanging in there on this long-winded tome! PD

(I’m running Vandersteen 2CE Signature III speakers (the latest) which may get upgraded to Treo CTs, though I have considered but not yet heard the Larsen 8 speakers). Random item: I’ve thought of getting monoblock amps, but wonder if those really offer something that a good stereo amp doesn’t (especially a true dual-mono amp). Maybe I will do a separate post after searching here.

 

128x128patrickdowns
kb54 re:

Sorry, I know this is off topic, but I am interested in the difference between the Sig IIIs and Treos. What is causing you to consider upgrading?

Welllll, how much time do you have? 😂

I am resistant to change and changing favorite brands (loyal to a fault). When it came time to replace my 20 year old Vandersteen 2CEs about 3 years ago, I found a like-new pair of the well-reviewed Treo CTs at Audio Connection (Johnny Rutan) for $6k. So, I went and auditioned them against the newest 2CE Signature III at my local dealer, at great length. The Treos lived up to the reviews, and are superb but were $9000 new then ($10k now) and $3300 for the 2CE SigIII—no small difference. As I went back and forth between the 2CE SigIII and Treo, what jumped out at me is that the 2CE was excellent in comparison. I think it really deserves its place on the Absolute Sound List of 50 Greatest Buys in High End Audio. But—the Treo CT is also on that list! So, I got a new pair of 2CE SigIIIs to replace my old 2s.

50 Greatest Buys:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/50-greatest-bargains-in-high-end-audio-3/

  • The bass goes lower on the 2CE, but though the bass extension isn’t as low with the Treo CT, the quality of the bass is absolutely better, tighter, more accurate. Quantity vs quality.
  • As Richard Vandersteen admits, the 2CE is still a great speaker (they have sold >100,000 pairs, iirc!, which no doubt launched Vandersteens’s success and all his other great speaker development), but with the Treo the goal was to build something that took it to the next level, fixing the shortcomings of the 2CE. Hence the Treo has a cabinet within a cabinet which is VERY solid and reduces cabinet resonances; the carbon tweeter really is special and an improvement; the Treo is designed to be placed very near the front wall (2CE should be out at least 24", but more is better); and last but not least, the Treo is gorgeous (not wrapped in a big black sock) and has a great spouse/partner acceptance factor. My dealer told me many times men have brought their wives to hear the 2CE and their comment was "It’s ugly. No." Then they look at the Treo and say "I want that one" even though it is 3X more expensive!
  • Did I think the Treo was 3X better than the 2CE, because it is 3X more expensive? Not even close. Not 2X better. Maybe 10-15%, though that is so subjective and I am terrible at auditioning gear. I do think the Treo CT is like the superb Quatro CT (which I cannot afford) but without the powered onboard subs in the Quatro. The Treo sounds great and looks great, and I can’t get it out of my mind. It really is special, but for bang for the buck, the 2CE SigIII is a no-brainer and I don’t ever feel inadequate because that is what I chose. I have kicked myself for not buying the near-new pair for $6000 though! The Treo CT has a musicality that is superb, imo.
  • Part of my reasoning at not getting the Treo CT is that it is a next-level speaker, and I think to get the most benefit from them, I would want/need to do some expensive system upgrades to bring my whole system up several notches. So, $7k more for (a new pair of) Treos, maybe another $5-10k upgrade in amp/preamp/DAC at least, and especially upgrading my speaker cables to Audioquest Mythical Creatures or their upper level cables, which is $3-5K for a short run (using monoblock amps). The slippery slope of upgrades! Treos would cost me at least $10,000 in upgrades besides the speakers. Ouch. Maybe not mandatory but why do it if I am not going to realize full benefit from the speakers? By doing all those, the results would really be excellent and substantially better than my current system.
  • Oh, one thing my dealer salesman said to me, as someone who also owned 2CE SigIIIs but loves all the Vandys, is that the 2CE rises to the occasion when paired with much more expensive gear than one typically would do. He said they had paired them with a $30,000 Audio Research stack and they sounded great, rather than being totally outmatched. So I believe they will give me results as I improve my front end. 

That is the long-winded answer. The 2CE SigIII is a great speaker (and value) imo, and so is the Treo CT. It is all about budget, and there is no wrong answer if you love the Vandersteen sound, which I do. Had I big bucks, I would get the Quatro CTs—or better yet the Kentos—and Vandersteen monoblocks.

(If @tomik, who has both the Treo CT and the Vandersteen 7, is reading this he will want to strangle me because he has seen/heard me do this back and forth too many times! Sorry!)

I am running my 2nd Icon MK II (I broke the digital out connector on the first one, long story) into a Kora non oversampling dual mono tube DAC and could not be happier. The Cal's are bullet proof, very well made machines, just look under the hood. And they make great transports.

Also, Steve McCormack turned my DNA 1 into a SMc Audio GT-22+ last year- WOW- now it's a truly amazing-goose bump producing piece of gear.

Send it back for an upgrade or sell it to him. He ALWAYS has use for chassis's.

The money on the upgrade was well spent.

Keep rocking with you Cal!!

 

Thanks @grossman616 ! That's great to know that your Cal Audio is still going strong. Oh if I only knew then what I know now, I never would have sold my dead DNA-1 chassis to SMc. I would have just kept it and waited to have a new amp built. 

 

 

Mr McCormack told me a long time ago "Newer doesn't always mean better"

I still have my Mod Squad Prism CD player ( his first company -1988 vintage) and it still rocks. 5 volts RMS!.

It's loud - with a fantastic  Phillips chip set. It can be modified for Non Over Sampling playback!

If you come across ANY McCormack gear you can always send it to SMc and have it re-built/upgraded and future proofed.

My re-born DNA1/ SMc GT 22+ will out live me by decades...

I have a McCormack Deluxe  passive pre-amp that he upgraded plus a phono amp as well.

It's so wonderful to be able to keep your gear alive and upgraded my the MAN himself.

All the best!

HG