Radical toe in once more

Hi @newbee 

Jokes aside - I agree with most of what you said. Listen. Take time. Small changes can have a large impact. - This is all the more true with dynamic bipoles like mine.

Just to clarify: my room is large enough that radical toe-in is not needed in order to avoid sidewall reflection (or to enlarge the sweet spot). In fact for several years I have used conventional (slight) toe-in, where the speaker axes crossed some feet behind the listener position. It is just recently that I've changed to radical.

I also agree that listening for soundscape depth is important, and often intriguing. I find that radical toe-in is as good or maybe better in terms of depth (it was good before also). 

What I have not considered, or not so much, is the area behind and between the speakers. There, I have my stereo rack, and sadly, there is not much I can do about it, although I know its not ideal. Oh well. 

Here is what I did not understand: "What you have by doing 'severe' toe in is to point that off axis signal off the wall between your speakers." Are you describing the off-axis sound from the backfiring drivers? In my case, radical / severe toe-in means that the sides of the speakers point towards the middle of the wall with the stereo rack, yet the sides are 4 feet away from the rack, and there are no drivers mounted at the sides of the speakers (only back + front). So I hear less direct sound, when listening close to the sides. And the off-axis sound from the backfiring drivers hits the wall at the sides, not in the middle with the rack, but close to the corners. Maybe I should do the 'mirror test' for first reflections, but it seems to be a non-issue. I could also stack something in front of the rack, or use more absorption/diffusion on the wall, but Ive tried these things before, the improvement is only marginal. Thinking I am lucky, since I have the space to let the speakers 'breathe'.

One of the joys of experimenting with speaker positioning and toe-in is to discover more of the speakers' potential. Recently I brought a pair of stands to a holiday house and was amazed at how much better a pair of Audioengine A5+ sounded. And it was really easy to do mini-adjustments to get them "just right". I wish it was just as easy with my heavy floor standers.

Yet my experiments, so far, have confirmed my positive impression of these speakers. They are indeed chameleon-like, changing according to the music and production. When set up correctly, especially with the right material, they can sound like electrostats, but with dynamic punch, both in the treble and bass. This is also due to excellent amp and speaker matching.

The speakers are a sophisticated attempt to use "best of" reverberant energy in order to improve the perception of the sound as a whole. So, for example, the output is spectrally correct, or quite similar, wherever you are in the room, the main timbre is the same. This is way beyond Bose 901, which I used many years ago. A main 'trick' is to postpone the reverberant sound, so it arrives at least 10 msec later than the direct sound from the front of the speakers - and according to my experiments, 15 msec (by radical toe-in) is even better.

So yes, my ears guide this journey. I would welcome some hardcore science also - if there is a problem with the sound waves from the front drivers crossing in front of the listener, and if so, what is this, and in practice, can we hear it, or is it totally marginal.

Re hardcore science, well there are books (available on Amazon) on acoustics as they relate to audio systems, but I don't know how much they would help you in setting up your system.

I'm not familiar with the proper set up of bi-directional speakers. Forward firing boxes, panels, and electrostatics yes. I'm really not  familiar with  omni's or bi-directional boxes either, so I'm not a really good source of information for you.

The 'between the speakers" I referred to was from the inside of your forward facing drivers. I wasn't suggesting anything in particular, just that depending on the strength of the off axis signal that reflections off this wall could affect your systems sound (note I referred to 2d reflection points) but its contribution would be small(er) compared to the rear drivers reflecting off any of the walls sounding your speakers. 

But something I can rather confidently suggest you try is bringing your speakers out further into your room. This will give you better separation of the direct sound vs the sound of the rear wall, resulting in a clearer sound. At least 5 ft. Further won't hurt but be mindful of the change in bass response due to room nulls and nodes. 

FWIW.

I have ESP loudspeakers in one of my systems.  These speakers are specifically designed for a 45 degree toe in.  In my summer home they are setup in a spare bedroom 10x13x8, technically too small of a room according to the instruction manual.  The speakers are 42 inches from the front wall, measured from the furthest edge of the front baffle.  My listening position is approximately 7 feet away.  In this setup, I ended up reducing the toe in to around 35 degrees so the intersection occurs just at the front of my chair.  The resulting soundstage is much to my liking.  Out of my four systems this is the only one that consistently delivers the “you are there” listening experience versus the “they are here” experience.  It is more of a concert like effect and I like that.

This room is a good sounding room to start with and is treated with two diffusion panels, two tube traps, and several absorption panels strategically located by listening.

I don’t think this degree of toe in will work with most speakers or rooms.  However, experimentation is the only way to find out.

Is there an "inherent" problem with radical toe in, when the main sound from the front drivers cross in front of the listener, instead of the more conventional setup where the crossing point is behind the listener - and if so, what?

@o_holter Toe-in helps you to minimize side wall reflections, which are interpreted by the ear as harshness. I don't think there is a 'more conventional setup where the crossing point is behind' for this speaker. Generally if there are side walls nearby, that might not work out so well.

Yesterday I bought Endresen and Wesseltoft: Out here, in there, on 2 x LP 45 rpm (Jazzland records). It sounded so good that my wife played the whole thing once more (doesnt happen often). So I think we're nearly there. The setup is much like @rhljazz described. Ca. 40 degrees toe-in. I don't hear any front wave disturbance with the female vocal. The treble is a bit tamed, which is OK in my case. In a sense, this whole thing is like going back to start. Following the speaker designer's advice, with some minor adjustments from there. It will be interesting what my audio friends think, since they preferred conventional toe-in, some years ago. Anyway, it has been an interesting experiment, so thanks again for all advice.