KLaudio or Degritter Mark II

There is a very long thread about experiences with the Degritter here. I believe it's a fraction of the price of the Klaudio.

As it should be at over eight times the cost (Degritter vs HumminGuru).

Here's a useful thread on the HumminGuru:

HumminGuru Use Tips

@oldaudiophile,

Below is a compare and contrast I did for someone regarding the Degritter vs the KLAudio.  This post is a quick overview of some of rules with ultrasonic cleaning: Audiogon Discussion Forum to refesh if needed.  Note that owning neither of these devices, I am presenting info only as an unbiased consultant. Hopefully the information presented can be of some help to you.  Otherwise, each has its pluses and minuses, cost notwithstanding.  

Take care, Neil

1. Price:

a. The Degritter MKII is about $3,300. The only real add on's are a 2nd tank at $120 Search (musicdirect.com)

b. The KLAudio starts at $6500 and with add-ons such multiple record cleaning kit and silencer and you can add another $4.8K Vinyl Records, SACDs, DVD Audio, Audiophile Equipment|Acoustic Sounds

2. Appearance & Construction & Support.

a. The Degritter outside skin is plastic. There are no internal photos available, so the quality of the internal construction is unknown. But Degritter has been very supportive of its customers and has supported with procedures those that are willing to performed DIY warranty work; so, their unit is repairable.

b. The KLAudio is slabs of aluminum. Internal photos that are available show a pretty robust repairable construction -Klaudio LP200 Ultrasonic Record Cleaner - Driver Board Replacement - Audionirvana.org. KLAudio support is not as apparent as Degritter, but that could be a function of having less problems. Arizona-Mike (now very well-known from the MoFi debacle) did a nice review of the new KLAudio 200T The Best Way To CLEAN and STORE Your Records + KLaudio 200s & 200t Ultrasonic Cleaner Review - Bing video

3. Durability:

a. The Degritter is not an industrial unit and whether it will last consistently past cleaning 3000 records is unknown.  One person has reported 10,000, while many report failures about 3000.  But Degritter did recently announce that they would be offering a rebuild for $610 - Degritter Users | Page 117 | Steve Hoffman Music Forums so that shows depth of support.  Also, Degritter frequently updates the software that operates the unit.  

b. KLAudio has not offered any similar standard rebuild, but the experience of Arizona Mike and Bill Hart @whart of the The Vinyl Press - should give confidence. Whether KLAudio who stopped and then is now back to selling (exclusive to Acoustic Sounds who I believe bought a minimum # of units) could give one pause, but the company in general appears robust still developing new products.  KLAudio is not known for updating operating software.

c. The Degritter pump and valves are a weakness. Part of the problem is that the pump is internal and is small. The new KLAudio 200T with the external pump & filter offers a much more robust and easier to repair design. But do you have the requisite space - The Ultrasonic vinyl cleaner owners thread | Page 34 | Steve Hoffman Music Forums. The Degritter does have a 'flush' routine that is used to keep the valves clean.  But the Degritter design does need to prime the pump where the external KLAudio is kept immersed all the time - see below.  

4. Cleaning Agents:

a. The Degritter allows use of other cleaning agents, but the pump/filter system is sensitive to foaming, so only very low (or no) foaming cleaning agents can be used. Its best to just use the Degritter Cleaning Fluid except better to use only 1 ml to 1.5 ml per tank. The Degritter Cleaning Fluid is nothing more than a wetting/rinse aid.  Degritter has updated their software to add a rinse cycle where you would swap tanks with one filled only with DIW.

b. KLAudio is specific manual_kd-cln-lp200t_d100eng.pdf (klaudio.com) about stating not to use any cleaning agent, and states:  Distilled water is not recommended, because the electrical conductivity may be too low for the cleaner to begin the wash cycle.  This is likely due to the water level sensors. I would be very hesitant to use tap water.  Bottled water such as Dasani water-analysis-report-2019.pdf (dasani.com) shows TDS at 36 ppm which is not bad.  You may get by with using 50:50 of Dasani:DIW for a TDS about 20 ppm (measured with a good TDS meter -COM-100 – hmdigital.com).

5. What about cleaning a record:

a. The Degritter is 120kHz, 300W (four 75W transducers) and 1.4L tank. This is powerful unit, but keep in mind that as the kHz increases, they require more power for cavitation. The cavitation bubble is about 20 microns, so it can get into the groove, but the small diameter limits cavitation intensity which can impact ability to clean heavy surface detritus. But the wetting solution can offset this. But some people find that unless a rinse cycle is applied with a 2nd tank, that cleaner residue can affect the playback fidelity - softening of the high frequencies. Overall, the higher kHz does limit how well this can clean dirty used records - and most people use something else for preclean.

b. The KLAudio is 40kHz, 200W (four 50W transducers) and 0.77L tank (someone recently measured). This is a very powerful unit for this kHz (make no mistake the most powerful of these UT all-in-one record cleaning units) and the cavitation bubble at about 75 microns while not getting into the groove should be very effective for surface detritus, but the very high cavitation intensity/jetting (from the very high power) should reach deep into the groove. The lack of using any wetting solution can limit how well this can clean dirty used records - and most people use vacuum RCM or manual process for preclean.

c. Both units use a fan air-dry, and depending on your local environment, dust/lint can be deposited during the drying process.  Placing a HEPA filter in the general area should help.  

6. Bath Management:

a. The Degritter has a small filter of limited performance at best is 75 microns. They recommend replacing the bath once/week or about every 25-30 records - Degritter-manual-v2.2-ENG.pdf. If you want better cleaning - replace the bath more frequently. The filter needs to be periodically cleaned and replacements are inexpensive - but these do not begin to approach the KLAudio. 

b. The KLAudio new design has its filter external to the unit and is much larger than the Degritter.  KLAudio states "When using the filter, the distilled water should be replaced about every 500 discs, every few weeks, or if the water appears particularly dirty". If you want your records clean, replace the water more frequently - do not wait until the water is visibly dirty, otherwise you are cleaning record with dirty fluid. KLAudio does not specify the filter micron rating, but from the pictures and cost, it appears to be probably a standard 5” cartridge that is readily available at 5-micron Pentek P Series Spec Sheet (pentair.com).  Note that due to the low-head (discharge pressure) submersible centrifugal pump that KLAudio uses, a finer filter would present too much pressure drop.

7. Work Throughput:

a. The Degritter will go into a cool-down cycle (35C) after about two Heavy clean cycles. At medium and below most people report good throughput without the unit going into a cool-down. The cool-down is just simply 300W into 1.4L water; it can heat the water as much as 5.5F/min.

b. The KLAudio reservoir holds much more water (~2.5L) than the unit actually needs which does a couple of items: It keeps the pump primed, and it helps to keep the water cool. Assuming no thermal losses, 200W can heat 770-ml about 6-degF/min. If you were to a run a 5-min cycle (first run of the day) when the unit drained down - the temperature of the drain hose should feel warm compared to the reservoir. After a number of cycles, the reservoir should warm up, and eventually with ambient at low-mid-70's, reach some equilibrium temperature.  But with an external tank, that should be enough to prevent any over-temp issue - the KLAudio manual says it alarms at 40C.  

8. Other:

a. The Degritter has a very good operating manual Update your record cleaner software | Degritter - the KLAudio is more an installation manual.

b. The Degritter warranty is 2-yrs. The KLAudio appears to be just 1-yr.
 

As always, Neil provides the definitive evaluation and comparison 😊 .

@antinn You are indispensable!

My last foray of record cleaning involved the use of LAST POWER RECORD CLEANER (used as directed) as a pre-cleaning step.

Then, I used a Knosti Disco Anti-Stat filled with Mobile Fidelity Super Record Wash as another pre-cleaning step, rotating the records in the bath at least half a dozen times in both directions.

The next step involved use of an RoHS Model 30A 180W ultrasonic power 200W cleaning power 40Khz 6L digital ultrasonic cleaner filled with distilled water and 15ml of Tergitol.15-S-9, set to 72 degrees Fahrenheit for 15-minute cleaning cycles.  I ran the machine for 30 minutes at the same temperature, prior to cleaning records, thinking this would accomplish degassing.  Then, I cleaned 3 records at a time in the ultrasonic using CleanerVinyl's record rotating motor set for .5 RPM, their old-style screw-on spacers that separates records by approximately 11/16", their record lifting & lowering device and their 6l one micron filtration device.

The last step (excluding treating dry records with LAST RECORD PRESERVATIVE) involved another go-around in the same ultrasonic machine, filled with only distilled water (same degassing protocol) and set to the same temperature and cleaning/rinsing cycles.

The results I obtained were at least as effective as a previous time when I used Mobile Fidelity's Super Record Wash for the ultrasonic cleaning fluid, no heat, and the same 15-minute cleaning cycles at 5 RPM rotation.  In a direct comparison with the original Degitter, using only my ears for fidelity comparison, I found the Degritter did no better.

The allure of machines like the Degritter, KLAudio and some others, from my perspective, is and has always been ease of operation, smaller footprint and, basically, eloquence.  Be that as it may, I and many other audiophiles, I'm sure, continue to struggle with the thousands of dollars such eloquence affords.

I'm wondering if the Elma Ultrasonic P60H, with its sweep frequency and 37 to 80 Khz settings might be a cost-effective alternative to consider.

Thoughts, Sensei?

As always, I cannot thank you enough for whatever time and attention you bring to this!