room size question.

@russ69

I have not achieved a great soundstage without some toe-in. Try crossing just in front or just behind your ears. I’d also like to know if your tweeters are at ear level. Finally I would space out a little wider if you can. I like that you have a low rack, that helps. I’m not sure you listed your gear but if you are using, for example, a low level receiver, you can’t get much out of something like that. You are on the right path, keep working.

i get that toe in plays a part....but if toe in sounds terrible, which i have said it does, then why toe them in ?

if i go wider, then it just sounds like 2 speakers playing and have no center imagining at all.

i would say tweeters are at ear level.

i have listed my gear, but will list it again

preamp : aric audio transcend

amp : innersound esl 300

cd player : Ayre cx7

@bshaw 

Alot suggested to have a your speaker toe in but have you consider how well you room is treated? The reason I mention treated room is because I have similar room dimensions as yours and before I thought with all the furniture and equipment in it that is sounded great. After audio measurement of my room, I had issues. I could get a decent image and soundstage but in a small room you can still get echo in the room just not much decay as bigger rooms.  I am not saying your room is the culprit but anaylizing and correcting acoustical problem can mask a solution.

@highend64 

in the beginning and somewhere in the middle, i have mentioned that the room is treated with GIK treatments.      there are a total of 4 bass traps in the corners, there are 2 standing diffusors and there are 2 acoutical panels behind the listening chair.

there is definitely no echo in this room.

i get that toe in plays a part....but if toe in sounds terrible, which i have said it does, then why toe them in ?

if i go wider, then it just sounds like 2 speakers playing and have no center imagining at all.

@bshaw , I don’t make any claims whatsoever to know a whole lot on this subject, but from what you have typed your room, your speakers, and you do not like toe-in. Therefore, I wouldn’t toe them in. As far as the width of the speakers and imaging, it also sounds to me as if you need to space them at a distance where you are hearing a precise center image.

There are some test CDs that have tracks by Doug Sax & Rodger Skoff, and on one of them they do this in phase/out of phase thing: "in phase, my voice should be centered precisely between your two speakers. . . ." and "out of phase, my voice should have no apparent center, no apparent focus, it should sound like it is coming from all around the room, move your speakers a little bit at a time to enhance this effect, the less focus you have when out of phase, the more focus you will have when in phase. . . ." That might be helpful to you.

@bshaw 

That is great you have treated your room. Do you have treatment for the first reflection on the side walls?

My room did not have echo prior to treatment assuming that I thought sounded great. After that, what a considerably big difference. Of course without knowing what the room is doing, we are guessing. I happen to have the tools to do this.