room size question.

i get that toe in plays a part....but if toe in sounds terrible, which i have said it does, then why toe them in ?

if i go wider, then it just sounds like 2 speakers playing and have no center imagining at all.

@bshaw , I don’t make any claims whatsoever to know a whole lot on this subject, but from what you have typed your room, your speakers, and you do not like toe-in. Therefore, I wouldn’t toe them in. As far as the width of the speakers and imaging, it also sounds to me as if you need to space them at a distance where you are hearing a precise center image.

There are some test CDs that have tracks by Doug Sax & Rodger Skoff, and on one of them they do this in phase/out of phase thing: "in phase, my voice should be centered precisely between your two speakers. . . ." and "out of phase, my voice should have no apparent center, no apparent focus, it should sound like it is coming from all around the room, move your speakers a little bit at a time to enhance this effect, the less focus you have when out of phase, the more focus you will have when in phase. . . ." That might be helpful to you.

if i go wider, then it just sounds like 2 speakers playing and have no center imagining at all.

i have center imagining.....but i am not getting anything more than that. 

 

So no matter the distance you put your speakers at, no happy medium?

Well, two things:

You listed your gear but I am not familiar with any of it (which doesn’t mean anything as a couple of decades ago I quit keeping up on this stuff) but I did find in the decade before, that as I gradually upgraded the electronics in front of my speakers, everything (sonic-wise) got bigger, better, and tighter. I said I have been out of touch for the past two decades and that is true, but over the last three years I did splurge on a new SACD player & a preamp I could not afford and, sonic wise, things are at the best they have ever been. (But, sadly, I am still not having as much fun as I had about 25 years ago.)

Secondly, I read through this entire thread starting yesterday, but I can’t remember if something like this has been proposed, but maybe start over with a clean small equilateral triangle of about 4’ in the CENTER between walls and then start increasing it by equal increments and see if you can find something. Since that equilateral triangle will start out small, keep the back wall clear of gear and obviously no gear between your speakers (everything off to one side). I think I would start out with keeping the rear wall clean as well (if it was me).

i keep saying that the system sounds fine, i have vocals that image from the front.....but that is where it stops.

@bshaw , Sorry if I missed something, but I thought that you said that you either had imaging and no real sound stage or if you moved your speakers far enough apart you lost the imaging? That doesn’t sound fine to me.

.....and hence my post about can this be achieved in a smaller room ?? if you look at the size of both of those rooms in the videos, they are big rooms....a lot bigger than mine. i think that a small room like mine has its limitations and this is going to be it.

I listen in a room with less clean space than you have described, and although I do not know how accurate it is, my sound stage presents the illusion of being wider than the room is laterally and filling the space between my listening position & the rear wall and dead center imaging.. I hear plenty of height. (A lot of this is dependent upon the source CD. Some are WAY better than others.) I have no doubt at all in my mind that if I was to move back out into the living room with my gear that there would be sonic benefits, but I believe that the limitations of close field listening can be mitigated to a large extent.

the equipment has to stay in between the speakers , there is no other option.

Now this, above, I see as presenting a real problem. As I typed, I think that the sonic limitations of near field listening can be mitigated, but one of the things (that I think) need to be done is to have a clean triangle.

However, I make no claims at all of being an expert on this subject.

Also, it looks like you may need to move the speakers closer together since you’re not getting any soundstaging with them wide apart ... if you move them closer in small increments with no toe-in, there should come a point where they will snap into focus and you’ll achieve a nice soundstage.

@rlb61  , this was kind of where I was going with suggesting OP start with a small equilateral triangle with about 4' spacing & then moving wider in increments to see if he could catch a good spot.  But I am also thinking that having his equipment between his speakers will be problematic. 

if I go to a concert, I don’t hear a soundstage, most of the time I just try not to go deaf with my sensitive ears,

@grislybutter  ,  I thought you made good suggestion and points; however I would think that if you went to a small mostly acoustic performance that you probably would hear some sort of sound stage.

I agree with you, but when I go, once a year or so, it’s giant speakers in giant spaces. (my point being that soundstage is not a given, we are not recreating but creating it)

@grislybutter , gotcha. It’s been like over 40 years since I dropped acid & went to a Rush concert at an amphitheater, but even more recently (which is now over 20 years ago) when I was catching way smaller acts at general admission 500 seat venues (which usually were not filling anywhere near capacity) I wasn’t there for the sound stage and I don’t think I was hearing a whole lot of it; I was there to see an artist that I really liked perform. What I heard in my living room usually sounded better than what I went to see live.

@bshaw , I will thank you for posting this thread. I had been putting it off for a while, but because of this thread I was in the room tonight tweaking the speakers, & I wound up bringing them about 6 more " from the rear wall, incrementally closer together (therefore incrementally further from the sides) & the listening chair moved back a bit. Hopefully I’ll be back there again tomorrow night to do some more evaluating.

A couple of more things to take or leave as you please: but all CDs are not created equal. I won’t ever be critical of anything anybody listens to, but ATTEMPTING to create a better sonic environment & ATTEMPTING to listen critically is what turned me on to jazz (which is not to say that jazz is all I listen to). My small room & what usually seems like probably a smaller venue or studio seem to work well together, plus there is a lot of well mixed and mastered source stuff to choose from. I’ve tried classical, but I think that this is where the small room’s limitations become more evident. Plus, classical doesn’t really float my boat.

This (hopefully) quick story is the last thing I’ll say about electronics: around 25 years ago I was listening to a smallish Cary tube amp (four 6550s for outputs), and a B&K HT preamp (I have long since abandoned HT) & my stereo system utilized a pair of B&W 805s. I read Stereophile religeously & I longed for the sound stage they all wrote about. One month Stereophile featured the Mesa Baron (a dual monoblock in one chassis tube amp, 12 output tubes per monoblock that are switchable in thirds from full triode to full pentode, meters, rack handles, all sorts of cool looking switches . . .) and a local dealer actually had one he let me try out for a weekend! Plus he was going to give me a decent trade in on my little Cary! Man, I was excited about that! He advised I utilize 1/3 triode & 2/3 pentode & most of the time I did. Using the same speakers & without changing their placement I was instantly struck by how close in my face the music was & how it filled the room. I was listening a lot to the the Cowboy Junkies at the time & Margo’s voice took on a husky quality (as did all vocals) & a smoky or musky sounding background was always pervasive. But it was new & different & I initially found it appealing & it was a soundstage & I hadn’t really heard one before so I had just about made up my mind to buy it,

but

the last thing I did the Sunday night before I was going to bring it back or close the deal on it was to hook my little Cary back up & I put the Cowboy Junkies back on & listened to Sweet Jane (it was either off of Trinity Sessions or their only live CD at the time) and the sound stage shrunk back to the wall that the speakers were on, but there was a blackness to what surrounded the music and around the vocals and the instrumental work--cymbals hung in the air & vibrated and I could imagine her clenching her teeth on certain passages & it was like, "that other stuff was neat in a different sort of way, but this is clean & pure sounding." So I kept the little Cary (I still have it) & gradually upgraded through a couple of more amps & a couple more preamps and wires & cables & digital front ends.

There was a point to that seemingly pointless story, but anyway, good luck on your quest. Ramble on. . . .

I would unplug the subs first, and experiment with the monitors only.

I just did a reread & I read this by @grislybutter  , did you ever give this a try?

Also, in that previous listening space which you have alluded to, did you have any gear between the speakers?

i have not turned the subs off.           i guess my question is what would be the purpose of that ?

yes the gear is in between the speakers.      the stands are basically amp stands, so they are very low to the ground.

1) It is easy & free to try and the interaction of the subs with the speakers (particularly in a small room) may have an effect on sound stage.

@)I understand that you currently have your gear between your speakers, my question was:  in that listening environment that you previously had your system in, was your gear between your speakers then?

I have the same room size and today I sat closer to the speakers and lower. My ears were at the midbass driver level.

5' out instead of 6', sitting on the floor. Giant difference. a lot more "surrounding", spacious soundstage. 

@grislybutter  , this thread got me back to tweaking in my room.  The clean space in my room is actually smaller than your room & OPs room, but out of curiosity, could you tell me how far you have your speakers from the rear & side walls?  Thanks/Matt