Speaker Recommendation Help Please.


Hello,

I  am hoping to get some advice.

First, I'm in Canada so when I talk budgets I will use gear, not numbers, as that is probably the best way to remove the "currency" factor ($100 USD is very different than $100 CAD, but a NAD M33 is the same item on both sides of the border). 

Second, I actually have pretty minimal experience with speakers.  I was an avid headphone listener for years as I used to live in a condo so speakers, due to space and neighbours, was not an option.  I've owned most TOTL headphones - HD800, Focal Utopia, LCD4, Abyss, Code-X, SR-009/007, etc.  

Third, I'm looking at speakers for now, only.  An amp and source will come later so let's ignore it for now entirely please.  Assume whatever speaker I end up with, I will get an appropriate amp.  I am trying to keep this as focused as possible and I have to start somewhere, and I've decided the speakers are the place.  If I have a budget of $X, I am happy to spend $X on speakers and wait to buy an amp rather than spending $0.5X on speakers and $0.5X on an amp today.

Fourth, some information about my listening preferences...  People ask, "what kind of music do you like".  Well, as Justice Stewart might say, I can't define it but when I hear it, I know it.  I'm pretty varied and probably listen to much of the same stuff every audiophile does.  I don't listen to a lot of classical, chamber, techno, EDM, rap or country.  Take whatever is left, and that's probably me.  I love detail - It's what I love about the HD800 and Utopia's - there is so much nuance, air and separation.  I love that.  I also love texture, which is why I love the LCD4's.  The resonance of a guitar body, the natural tone of a voice.  And I love slam...  This is my guilty pleasure.  I used to drive my Abyss with a PassLabs INT-30A (30 watts of Class A into headphones) and you could almost feel the impact in your chest.  If you need more detail, or have specific questions about any of this, please let me know.

Fifth, my room is the biggest small room there is (well, not really).  The speakers on going on an 13 foot wall (that extends out to about 60 feet) and the room is 28 feet deep.  The speakers can only be about 12-14 inches from the back wall (I have a wife and it's our family room) and my ears are about 10 feet from the speaker wall.  Oh, and the ceilings are 12 feet high.  Here's my crummy drawing of the room.  Each square is one foot by one foot:

 

(Hopefully you can read all that).

 

The speakers are going on the left side and there is fireplace in between.  Behind the couch is the kitchen and, if you are sitting on the couch, to your left, it opens up to the font of the house.  Here's what is actually looks like and the new speaker will go where the current ones are:

 

 

(The speakers are Paradigm Active 20's for those playing at home)

To the right is the back of the home which is mostly glass.

Now, as for options.  I don't love the signature of the Paradigms.  They have a  "dark" sound and have a recessed mids.  What I call an "American sound".  I am looking for something more neutral or even slightly warm.  

Locally, there is a pair of Sophia V1's which is my current front runner.  I think they will give me everything I am after with the right amp but they are a little big.  They are also my #1 choice due to price.  I worry about placement and that being a big problem.

I am also considering Wilson SabrinaX's,.  I worry the Sabarina's may be too small sounding for the room (not that I need to fill it, and I don't listen loud), but I love the foot print of them.  Also, because they are Wilson, I again worry about placement.

Next would be Sonus Faber Guarneri Traditions.  I think I would have end up adding a sub down the road which technically makes them the biggest option (by foot print).  I LOVE the look of them.  I also would consider Serafinos if I don't need a but I feel like we are getting into next level stuff with those so everything, like the amp budget has to climb as well.  Right now, my top choice amp for all options is a Hegel H390 or H590 so you get an ideal of budget.  Tubes aren't an option.

Next would be Focal Sopra 2's.  Visually, these are the bottom the list for me personally, but I think they are a bit of a middle ground sonically between the Sabrina's and GT's...  

I am going to listen to all 4 speakers this week.  

My question is which of the 4 would work best in my room given the placement restrictions?  The Sophia's may be a no brainer here because of the price and that they are second hand so they have already depreciated so I could buy them and change to another option later.  Are their others that you would strongly suggest?  Maggies aren't an option due to looks.  Magico isn't an option either.  

Thank you for reading,

-Paul

bigfatpaulie

M y first thought was to echo the earlier recommendation of Larsen loudspeakers which are deliberately engineered to be put up against the wall.   I found them to have a good tonal balance and clarity, but they also had a rather 2 dimensional image.  Being up against the wall, that's not surprising and something I'd consider to be an acceptable compromise as getting rid of the wife isn't an option.

But the Larsen 9 is a $15,000 loudspeaker, and you still haven't bought a power amp yet.  So if you're in that price range, then I heartily recommend the Dutch & Dutch 8c, which is one of the very best loudspeakers I've heard at any price.  Just extraordinary.  They have some of the very most amazing imaging I've EVER heard in any loudspeaker.  They also have a very powerful deep end.   It's a complete system.

The D & D 8c is much more than just a good loudspeaker.  It is a tri-amplified powered loudspeaker with built-in DSP EQ as well as a built-in DAC.   Part of the setup is that it accounts for the distance to the rear wall, and it is also engineered to play with a wall directly behind it.  

You don't say what you use for your source, but if you're strictly digital, then this is the whole system.  You could use a laptop for your digital source and just connect directly to the D & D 8c over the house network and you're done.  No preamp and power amp with cables and such.  Talk about a happy wife!

Note in this photo that the speakers are just a few inches in front of a flat wall behind them.  Looks like your situation to me.    They retail for $12,000, which may sound like a lot, but it's a total system cost.  Remember that most any other loudspeaker will still mean you're buying amplifiers, cables, etc, and all that stuff has to go somewhere.

Nicely detailed post!  Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has got one.  As someone who has the Sabrina X's, I highly recommend them.  Although I have a small music room, 11x11x11, they are perfect for me, and I have them about 2 ft from the rear wall.  They are driven by a Pass Labs 250.8.  Don't worry about placement . .  although it's always good to have a Wilson dealer set them up, you can easily get them in close to if not the perfect place.  They go plenty loud (more than I will ever need).  Since they would be set up for your listening area, 10 ft is great, toe'd in slightly.  Plus they have all of the latest Wilson tech, like the tweeter from the super high end model, and the entire cabinet is X material.  

If you can't get more than a foot or so from the wall, you won't make Sophias (Ive had Sophia 2's for ~12 years) sound their best, and I doubt the Sabrina X would "thrive" without more air around it either.  You certainly can make the Sophias work, but you'll like need to significantly toe them in to create the best depth and imaging at the sofa location (mine are around 28" from the wall, and 10' from my ears.  Don't worry about the toe-in as far as filling the room and kitchen with sound, it affects imaging which is lost as you wander around anyway. I've not heard the Sabrina X's, so I can't say for sure, but @moto_man sounds about right on spacing.

The Wilsons definitely have a "house sound" you may or may not like, but if you do like the floor standers, the poster who recommended the Duette 2's is right on the mark as the 2's are designed specifically to be wall huggers, and are quite different from the original Duettes in that regard, so if you see some, do take a listen (horribly expensive new IMO, but...). 

While I am a Wilson fan, I've also never heard a Sonus Faber that I didn't like, though the sound is quite different. Can't go wrong there either - I wouldn't call them dark, but they are less forward than the Wilsons tend to be, and also they do have serious wife appeal factor.

Good hunting! 😀

Hi Everyone,

 

I wanted to start by thanking all of you for your thoughtful suggestions, help and kind words!!  Thank You!

 

Second: I bought a paid of speakers (YAY!!).  More on this in a minute.

 

Third: What happened.  Many of the suggestions were basically impossible to audition, unfortunately.  They just simply were available to audition, at home or otherwise.  I reached out to basically all the brands suggest and many were really helpful as they could have been, one of which offered that if I flew to the US to hear the speakers, and bought them, they would pay for my air fare: A really nice gesture.  The risk, however, was too great to take trips around the USA, flights, hotel, food, and so on, and I may still not love the speakers.  Not to mention the time needed away from the office...  I have to be practical and things that I can hear in my city are what ended up making the list.  So what made the list?

Sonus Faber Guarneri's
Wilson SabrinaX (and Sophia V1's)
Focal Sopra 2 & 3's
Paradigm Persona 7F
Klipsch K-Horns, Heresy & Cornwall's

Not the most comprehensive list, but it's what I could hear.  The closest Revel dealer is more than 6 hours by car away, so it also didn't make the cut.

Briefly  Horns (read, Klipsch) aren't for me.  That's not a knock on them, and I can certainly see why so many love them, but they just aren't my jam.  Again, no judgment, we all have personal taste, and variety is the spice of life, and others will not care for my taste.  And that's okay.  You do you, I'll do me :)

The Paradigms were really nice but have a "house sound" that is very similar to my Paradigms (recessed mids).  They are fantastic for classic rock.  Like, really, really good.  But I listen to more than that, and after having Paradigms for 20+ years, I want a change.  Been there, done that.

The Focal's.  I like the 2's more than the 3's.  Judge me for it.  I'm okay with that.  The 2's felt more "together" or, I guess the audiophile term is "cohesive".  They were easier to listen too, less "hifi" sounding and more just...  Good sounding.  I found the 2's less bright than than the 3's, but in the end, both were brighter than what I want.

Sonus Faber Guarneri.  Wow.  These are EASLITY the most beautiful speaker I have ever seen.  They had the Serafino's as well which are also stunning, but the Guarneri are just...  Something else.  I was heavily biased towards these from the get go.  Heck, I want a pair to have in my home, I don't care if they are even hooked up!  The sound...  They are the best speaker I've ever experienced (and this experience is limited) with vocals.  Especially female vocals. If I listened to that only, this would be the speaker.  People talk about sound having flash and bone.  I get what they mean now.  If you've never heard these, you owe it to yourself to hear them.  The are so unreal, they are human sounding.

Wilson Sophia V1's...  These made me well up.  There was an immediate emotional connection for me.  20 years ago I was sitting with a dealer and I asked what made a good speaker good.  His answer stuck with me forever: If the hairs on the back of your neck are standing on end, it's a good speaker.  My hairs we on were on full salute.  These are very special speakers to me.  But, and there are a few buts, they are old and the tweeters did have some deration on the surrounds.  I was concerned about longevity as the Wilson dealer warned they are likely near impossible to replace.  Apparently Wilson does not have back stock of them.  Second, and this was the nail in the coffin, they have a sharp leading edge.  They sounded good, amazing in fact, for a bit, but they the end and I didn't want to keep going.  Perhaps with tubes and tweaking it can be tamed, but I'm not going down that route.  For the money these go for...  What a steal.

Wilson SabrinaX's.  What can I say...  Take the emotion of the Sophia's, get rid of the leading edge, add in 95% of the vocal magic of the Guarneri's and put it in a small (albeit challenging to drive) cabinet and you have the SabrinaX's.  To me, it was the clear winner and there really was no second place.  These speakers have been getting very good reviews, and I get why.  I really do. Yes, the carpet in the front is terrible, the looks are polarizing, as is the brand, but to me, these are very, very special speakers that do very little wrong.  What is wrong?  Well, they don't image or do vocals as well as the Guarneri's (1 way vs 3 way, big cabinet vs small) they don't have the bass impact of the Sophia's (but a sub can be added if needed), they are demanding to drive (we all know about the wild impedance curve) and, so I hear, placement is a bugger.  But when amps well, and placed right, oh baby do these girls sing, and rock!  

 

So bought 'em.

 

Are they they best option for my room?  Almost certainly not.  They are pretty shallow so I should have about 22 inches from the wall to the back of the cabinet.  In the end, I made an emotional decision, taking into considered the best information I could get.  The speakers are made to spec (apparently) so after selecting the cabinet, grill and spike colours, they should be ready in about 10 weeks.

 

Now I have deal with an amp...  But that's for another thread.

 

Thank you all again for your help and I hope some of you aren't too upset with my decision.  Hopefully the speakers are Jekyll and Hyde in my room, but time will tell.  As long as the essence of what I heard (and it was with a Hegel H390 with a Zen streamer, off a Nucleus, Tidal + Roon) I'll be pretty happy.

 

Best,

-Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

Congrats Paul!  Great choice and great writeup.  I hope the SabrinaX works well in your room and associated components let them sing.  Sometimes when you listen to a speaker or component in a dealer showroom and then get them in your home, you realize how much synergy matters.

I got myself a pair of Tunetots this week and they are stunners.  They are also the most sensitive to placement speakers I've owned and it wasn't until I added a subwoofer that they really bloomed. But once dialed in.. WOW.  As you found, Wilson's past reputation for sometimes being harsh does not apply to this current crop and there's no brightness or sharpness there.  Neutral, detailed, meaty, dynamic.  A real pleasure to listen to.

I've always pined for a pair of Guarneris.  SF was my first love.  I've owned Cremona Auditors and Ms, but the Guarneri Mementos are still the most gorgeous stand mount speakers in history to me and by all accounts their sound matches their looks.

Looking forward to your "Amplifier Recommendation Help Please" thread.  😄