Hi Phil,
Well written and well explained.
I do think Spirit will find SET presentation enjoyable but different for the reasons you laid out.
Charles, |
Gsm18439 - just saw your home on "You Live in What?" On HGTV. I knew your home was converted from an old bank, but I didn't realize it was your home until i saw your Def4's. You've got a beautiful home! |
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Phil, your responses are so in depth, I get a lot of value from them, thanks. I think I'm getting the scenario I'm likely to be presented with, and have a good feeling I will embrace the SET sound.
You alluded to NAT without discussing them further. They don't have a lot of users commenting on their attributes, but I get the impression you are familiar with them. Can you elaborate on your thoughts re them, and as possible comparison with Black Shadows. I'm going to be auditioning the SE2 Se 70W/ch monoblocks thru their Utopia 2 box preamp.
My opinion of them is that they were spectacular with quite the most amazing bass imaging I've ever heard in audio. This was equal part jaw dropping and equal part challenging!
Additionally, my Audion demo may include their basic level line stage (no need for the Quattro 4 box affair now a phono stage is surplus to requirements with my Straingauge), or maybe even a Silvercore TVC, but most likely my pre-existing Hovland pre.
So thoughts on NAT, likely comparison to Audion, and use of my Hovland pre with Black Shadows, and how comparison to Audion line pre and TVC might go.
Thanks in advance. |
I don't have extensive experience with the NAT amps but when I've heard them, they were energetic but totally dark and while relatively quite good they did not exhibit to me the same league of speed & transparency that distinguishes Audion. That said, I again caution that while the frequency response of various 845 tube types in a given circuit are not meaningfully different, the presentation of detail, harmonic presence and events vary noticeably by power tube choice, so if you like the NAT for specific reasons it is possible that any shortcomings can be addressed by different tubes. NAT sounded more like Melody than Audion in my listening. How one perceives bass imaging is hard to anticipate without knowing their room.
The Black Shadow transmits excellent bass character but it isn't the last word in bass slam and shove. The Audion 845 has a lighter, faster step, better for resolving texture, differences in instrument materials and playing techniques. If electronica or EDM is your measure for convincing bass, then other options with more push and less nuance might impress you more wrt bass. However, the fleetness and agility of Audion prevails up and down the frequency range and for that you get more illumination and beauty from Audion than NAT.
Your Hovland tube preamp will mate well with the Black Shadows. It's possible you'll prefer different tubes in it with the Audion than with your Radia, and even the choice of 845 glass may alter your preference for preamp tubes. For reasons I haven't yet determined, I find my Black Shadows much less compatible with a TVC than are my 300B PSET Golden Dream monoblocks. My S&B-based (pre Music First) TVC is sonically synergistic with the Golden Dreams but I've never found it equal to a good active tube preamp with Black Shadows. Maybe you'll have a different conclusion.
The Audion line stage matches well, of course. It shares the speed, agility, tone density and transparency of Audion tube power amps.
One thing: the Black Shadows have input level controls and the amps have input sensitivity of 0.7v for full power out. So you need to scrub off some gain. Since SET amps aren't completely silent like your SS Radia, generally the best way to run a preamp with Audion amps is to turn the input level control down quite low, where you have great range of utility in the rotation of the preamp volume control, rather than to run the amps wide open and have little useful rotation on the preamp volume. Play with the gain relationship until it sounds best. With my Melody P2688 preamp, my Black Shadow input level pots are set at 9 o'clock. With my Audion preamp they were at 12 o'clock high.
Phil |
Phil, I have to say my couple of hours with the NATs were certainly characterised by a dark character, so I think we're hearing the same things.
It was a little like the Linn LP12-Naim amps-active Linn Isobarik demos that I was impressed with back in the mid 80s: really big, bass propulsive, but overly bass frequency orientated, and in retrospect definitely coloured. But had I the money at the time (unfortunately a lowly, poor student) it would have been my final port of call.
I can say that whatever the Hovlands come up short versus SET, it won't be in the areas of nimbleness, even frequency response or overt colouration.
If you're right and the Audions are a little 'lighter' of touch than the NATS, but still give me significantly more palpability of tone and image than my Hovs, this is likely to float my boat.
Re my Hovlands, about 3 years ago I contacted a specialist tube guy in the US, and replaced the stock tubes with NOS '50s Telefunkens. One of the best upgrades I've ever made. |
Spirit,
With small glass preamps, the question is, are you a vintage Telefunken or vintage Siemans listener?
Back in the day of early High End, when Absolute Sound was getting started, we used to resolve this question in the Audio Research SP3, SP3a, SP3a-1 by putting Telefunken (back then it wasn't "NOS" it was just Telefunken) glass in the phono section and Siemens in the high level, though you might reverse that depending on your phono cartridge. Now you're usually dealing just in line level pre amplification.
Of course there was room for the Mullard, RCA, Osram, Valvo and Mazda midpoints. The 50s Teles should be musically convincing and tone-rich in that pre.
You can adjust the Audion input & driver tubes in the same fashion, and use the leverage of the 845 to dial in the amps. You'll probably set the Black Shadows with base 845A tubes, which deliver an upper midrange/low top glare. If you hear that try to listen around it and if you report what you heard otherwise I can suggest some tube combos that bring it (or other 845 amps) in line with your preferences in presentation and tonal composition.
Phil |
Phil, your thoughts will be invaluable. I have to say, Andy of Andy's Tube Services got me going down the Telefunken route for the Hov pre after hearing my desire for speed and transparency rather than a traditional warm, fuzzy tube sound.
And he was spot on.
Re the NAT 'darkness', is this what you described at the time as a voicing, rather than a colouration? When i compare it to my only other tube amp exposure, BAT, I heard none of the wooly, fuzzy pudding of a sound characterising the latter.
The NATs were very muscular, propulsive, without an inch of fat, but more a really pungent red wine type sound. I get the impression the Audions may be more of a refreshing white, but just as potent.
Personally my mind was really drawn into the lower frequencies, and I don't really want to swap out an excellent synergy with the Hovlands for something more spectacular, but not so even top to bottom.
Confusingly |
Yes Phil, "confusingly..." the moment I listened 'thru' the music, all mids and treble glory was there in excess of my Hovs.
My conclusion was 'spectacular, but maybe flawed, or learning curve for me'.
Do you think the Black Shadows will not draw attention to any aspect of the frequency spectrum, and as a result I'll relax into the sound more readilly? |
Spirit-
You are just going to have to hear them for yourselves. There are components of SET sound that you have mentioned which are dealbreakers for me, but who knows for you. That somewhat dark, closed-in sound with a shrunken soundstage is something I have heard in my room numerous times with various SETs and it doesn't work for me. I suspect its partially a function of having a semi-treated room-- but whether it's my room, room treatment, a "modern" sound I prefer, or whatnot I can't really say. Now others will say SS is grungy, non-organic, hifi, bright, etc. and that's fine as well. I can 100% say that your Hovland will sound very different from the NATs or Black Shadows.
I think there are compromises with each topology and you just have to see what works best for you. The journey will be fun. My only caution with SET is to try out all varieties of music including full scale orchestra.
KeithR |
Keith,
I agree that Spirit has to experience SET amps and decide if they're for him. Your impression of SET is the opposite of mine. Hearing the open and boundary less presentation really exposed the flatter, two dimensional and some what arid and lifeless character of many SS amplifiers. The sense of flesh and living breathing musicians was on a much higher plane. Now most SS amps sound canned and you realize the sound is just reproduced with less vitality and emotion. I find the tone and dynamic flow just more realistic.
Our different experiences and subsequent out come is exactly why the various types of amplifiers will always exist and that's a good thing. I always appreciate you comments and different perspective.
Charles, |
Charles- yeah, what I meant to convey is "some" SETs exhibit those traits that Spirit was mentioning. the Sophias I had briefly were pretty open- most open SET I've had. tube selection also has a big impact here. I have not heard your Franks of course (they won't work in my large room)
as a corollary, there is SS out there that isn't 2d or lifeless. |
Keith,
Yes, that's why I said many as opposed to all SS amplifiers. My point is everyone hears and interprets differently so I won't question another listener's conclusions, I'll just acknowledge mine may be in stark contrast. I'd mentioned in an earlier post the Silicon Arts SS amplifiers and how good they sound to me (in an all Concert Fidelity Audio system). There are tube and SET amplifiers that didn't impress me, but SET done right just works best for me compared to other amplifier topology alternatives. We agree, there's some level of compromise regardless of amp choice.
Charles, |
I am very fulfilled with my SET system.
It does it for me! |
Isochronism,
Given your Wavelength amplifiers fulfillment is what I'd expect you to achieve.
Charles, |
>>...the Telefunken route for the Hov pre after hearing my desire for speed and transparency rather than a traditional warm, fuzzy tube sound....<<
Telefunken NOS tubes don't yield fuzzy but I wouldn't have sent you on that path for speed and transparency. Generally, would take the Siemens route for that. But the tone density of the TFs should be great in that preamp, and it's a fast circuit anyway.
>>The NATs were very muscular, propulsive, without an inch of fat, but more a really pungent red wine type sound. I get the impression the Audions may be more of a refreshing white, but just as potent.<<
I don't generally try to explain audio in food terms. I think the NAT amps are very strong, though "without an inch of fat" wouldn't be my description. But this is very dependent on the tubes chosen. You should find the Audion Black Shadows more agile and resolving, faster and more nuanced but probably overall less weighted. BTW, I think all voicings are colorations -- just judiciously-chosen ones to improve fidelity in real world listening, with real-world recordings.
>>Do you think the Black Shadows will not draw attention to any aspect of the frequency spectrum, and as a result I'll relax into the sound more readily?<<
You will have to listen for yourself, but yes, that is my expectation. BTW, you will not get the best out of Black Shadows with a TVC in front of it. Use an active preamp. For reasons I haven't figured out yet, the Black Shadow specifically tends to sound a little choked with a TVC feeding it. This is not true for the Golden Dreams.
A note on Keith's comments which will illustrate your challenge. I've heard just about every amp he's tried in his room on Def2s and Def4s. *Easily* the biggest sound stage and greatest tonal fidelity in his room was from Def4s driven by Audion Black Shadows, 845B or 845A tube. If I discount tonal fidelity, his McIntosh 601s had a bigger soundstage. Now he didn't hear it the same way. When he talks about SET being "closed-in" with a smaller sound stage and a "warm" sound, I have no idea what he's talking about because everything he's listened to that he described as more open and larger spatially was decidedly smaller, and brighter-than-real with a glaring top-end emphasis for me. He complains that the 845B tube rolls off the top end yet I hear more extended harmonic information from that tube in Audion or Melody amps, than I hear from his Valvet Class A solid state monoblocks. In fact almost everything he likes in amplification is top-end tilted in presentation relative to the sound of real instruments, to me. On the other hand, we both love Zu Def4s for the same reasons. What to make of it? Point is, Spirit, apart from trying to triangulate to an understanding of how you perceive fidelity by the gear, music and tuning experiences you relate, I really have no idea how you're going to hear the amps you audition. I can be sitting right beside Keith and be unable to connect his amplifier preferences to the sound of actual music as I hear it. But we converge on the same speaker and generally are pretty aligned on preamps. We're not widely apart on sources. So what you are going to think eight time zones away from me is only a guess. What Keith and I do agree on with Audion is that his room eats bass and he's had stronger bass amps than the Black Shadows or other SET. His current Valvet Class A amps have very strong bass, for example. I didn't find the latest generation Sophia 845 SET preferable in any way except I'll say it had more energetic deep bass, owing to it's large power supply. But it is a design taken too far -- hard, hammering and overselling at every turn. It has resolution but lost the design's former balance, agility and nuance.
With tube amps, especially SET, you have to try to hear the essential qualities of the amp circuit and its implementation, through the specific traits imposed by the choice of tubes, regardless of basic spec performance being the same. Every one of these things is tunable, but you can't make an Audion SET amp lazy and slow, for instance, nor an Almarra 318A or a Tri amp energetic and fast.
Phil |
Phil, your experience with Keith may be mirrored in my friend's reaction to my system. When he heard it in 2001 it comprised a traditional belt drive tt thru ss integrated amp into trad xovered spkrs. He and I both loved it for all the usual reasons, but I was aware more and more of excess euphonic warmth from the tt, and in retrospect artifacts of the xover.
Fast fwd 12 yrs, and he now is presented by rim drive tt/air bearing arm/straingauge cart into a tube/ss amp into frd/xoverless spkrs. Quite a few paradigm shifts, and much as he was impressed, he wouldn't choose it for himself - he readilly admitted he likes the 'wall of sound' so loved by LP12 acolytes circa 1985!
So I've got to a point where I'm listening to a very fast analog front end with minimal time smear, thru amps with a nice balance of sweetness and power, all into spkrs with excellent tone and dynamics.
And if SETS didn't exist I wouldn't be looking to upgrade anything.
But I want to find if me and my friend are going to meet in the middle - esp. re my friend's criticism of tonal thinness in my system thru the midbass/mids wrt vocals.
My dilemma is that I feel my system is v. well balanced, and I don't want to change amps if any perceived improvement now perhaps becomes a disadvantage long term. Eg with the NATs, despite my awe at the SQ, is the darkness I perceived likely to become a constant sonic fingerprint?
But like your thoughts on Keith's Valvets, I know my system has a slightly tipped-up bright nature, a function of super fast analog and ss power amps. It's just that the Def4s are so even-handed and benign in nature, that other spkrs would really spotlight the treble and make the whole presentation too treble-heavy.
So can SETs, Audion or NAT in my case, return the presentation to a more tonal mids centred presentation without losing the real cognitive ease I have with the system as is with the Hovlands? |
>>So can SETs, Audion or NAT in my case, return the presentation to a more tonal mids centred presentation without losing the real cognitive ease I have with the system as is with the Hovlands?<<
Yes. But you can't determine this for sure in a day or two. Essentially, you must listen for reasons to commit and then know you have to take the time to allow power supply break-in, tubes experimentation, and even possibly be prepared to adjust your cables loom or your source. With a Zu speaker, the power amp is the most influential next component and anything you select can disrupt prior choices you made elsewhere in the system, especially if such choices were made in the context of previous crossover-based speakers, solid state components, etc. If some basic element of what you hear in your SET auditions grabs you, then you have to make the jump if you want to get the most out of it. In other words, migrating from the Radia to an Audion SET amp will be a start, not a finish.
In Audion terms, there is great synergy between Black Shadow and its 845 tube, and Definitions (any vintage). But for some the same-power / less-drive Golden Dream 300B PSET amps can be the ticket. Just understand that for Black Shadow alone, the differences in perceived presentation between the 845A, 845A cryo, 845B, NOS RCA or United 845 and KR 845M, for example, can be quite large. If you want a destination amp with no further experimentation needed, then probably stick with what you have because any change in topology is going to set you on a course of discovery, and some disruption to your satisfaction with other aspects of your system. But if you do hear the Audion SET advantage enough to want to take that trip, then know you can bend the aural presentation via a variety of options downstream, or even when you spec a new pair to be built by Graeme's team.
I don't think there's any long term disadvantage to leaving push-pull solid state behind. I haven't changed my power amplification in either my Defs or Druids system since 2005, and it's not because anything was constraining me, other than not having heard anything better. But I bought both of my current monoblock pairs knowing they could be disruptive to some other choices and knowing that from that starting point, I would have to live with them for an extended period of tuning to get them to their best. I had no regrets whatsoever.
Phil |
Charles- back to Concert Fidelity, yes i've heard them at shows several times now and always have been impressed. Although their pricing leaves me cold in comparison to their build quality. Check out the inside of their DAC for a glimpse into that theory. |
Phil, a great setting out of the territory I may get into. I'm not going to have much control of swapping out cables/cords/tubes etc. DecoAudio, the UK dealer for Audion are going to provide me with a pair of Black Shadows, hopefully with compatible tubes, and a set of i/cs and power cords they trust will work with my system, but they will not be familiar with my analog and digital front ends. Hopefully this is not going to be a (total) lottery.
My comparison will be as much to ensure I don't lose what makes my Hovlands so reassuring, as to what SETs bring to the party. I've got a lineup of three dozen lps and cds that I know backwards, which should help comparison purposes. |
Phil et al just a little feedback as to my initial experience with the Black Shadows. I hate to use hyperbole, but the only word that comes to mind is 'phenomenal'.
I just plonked them in my system, with minimal tuning in including only 5mins warm up, where 30mins would be preferable, and playing a very flat sounding recording ie The Police "Can't Stand Losing You". Within microseconds, I was aware of the walls of the recording studio, Sting's bass line more insistent than ever, Summers' guitar and Copeland's cymbals more shimmering than ever.
This recording has always been a disapointment on my system, and by no means sounds great thru the Audions, but real life has been breathed into a flat lined presentation. I'm totally gobsmacked.
My girlfriend swears she can even hear the tealady in the studio, but she may be having a little fun at my pretentious expense - she has the best acuity of hearing I know, but as far removed from an audiophile as poss, LOL! |
So to continue the Zu amplification trend, I had the Luxman 590ax integrated amplifier on loan for the past few days. I think this amp would work well on Vivid, Wilson, and other speakers with metal tweeters---but just was a poor match with Definition 4s. Phil brought over some Zu Ibis cables to liven things up, but we just couldn't get this unit to sound good. It was creamy, velvety, non-dynamic sound. Almost hazy in my opinion. Also, Phil noted it seemed to have headroom issues in my room (surprisingly) in some ways like the First Watt SITs- just not effortless extension on some Chopin piano thunder we were playing.
That said, we put the Valvets back in and swapped to Zu cables and had a very noticeable increase in resolution and air--which had been lacking to some extent before compare to the best amps I've heard. |
Spirit,
Sounds like the essence of Audion speed, resolution and tone -- especially when hitched to Zu -- are registering with you. Good start.
Phil |
Phil, Charles et al, put me down as a SET convert (with a little caveat). I've been listening intently for three days to the Black Shadows, and they demand an emotional response. I'll post my conclusions over a handful of entries, starting with...
Firstly, I'm averse to components that impress on detail retrieval, since that can often lead to a showy but fatigueing sound. However the BSs on certain albums almost sound like a new mix is being employed - I thought I knew the Hatfield And The North "Rotters Club" lp backwards, but so many percussion runs and contrapunctal keyboard lines sprung out of nowhere, that it really was like listening for the first time.
Often, detail is striking me when I least expect it - just watched an 80s movie on laserdisc, and suddenly soundtrack ambient cues are jumping out, but unlike some beefy SS amps that I've auditioned, these details are holistically part of the soundstage, not highlighted for it's own sake.
So the BSs are really providing a treasure trove of detail, but never at the expense of serving the music. Quite a feat. Next, I'll discuss tonality and other aspects of sound presentation. |
Spirit,
You express yourself well and convey personal listening impressions effectively. I look forward to reaing more.I truly understand this reaction to SET amplifier exposure/insertion within your home system.
Charles, |
Spirit - great to year you are enjoying your audition of the Black Shadows. They are an outstanding representative of SET capabilities with more than enough power for any genre when powering the Def4's.
I also find them to convey remarkable tonal balance while simultaneously displaying beautiful, rich textures and allowing for a deep emotional connection with the artists. Prior to my experimentation with SET, I did not think this collection of traits could be simultaneously presented through any gear, only the province of live music. This is not to say that my system sounds identical to live music. It does not, however, it is a most satisfying proxy. By unlocking the emotional connection with the artists, it does lubricate the suspension of disbelief that I (we) crave.
Please keep us posted with your findings. |
Germanboxers(Jordan),
I find your comments and experience with SET amplifiers particularly insightful given the context. You`re coming from a background of Clayton class A SS amp and Atma-Sphere OTL. Both "highly" regarded examples of their respective genres.The emotion,involvement/communication and natural tone/timbre of SET was irresistible in my case.
Charles, |
Jordan and Charles, SETs sure are educational. I've described their holistic portrayal of detail, now I'd like to discuss tone, which fits in nicely with the big selling point of the Def4s.
Initially, I was taken aback by bass texture. Not sure I've ever heard fretwork to the same level with my Hovs. Bass is warm and effusive, but no lack of speed when present. However, there remains one caveat, in that material with lots of bass info can get a little over ripe in my system. Some adjustment of support/isolation and cabling has already made a difference here, so I'm pretty cool with it. A real function of SETs over ss seems to be the contrast of full bodied tonality with drier, more skeletal presentation.
However, where I'm totally amazed by the BSs is in their treble presentation. I'm getting unbelievable projection and sustain, making my Hovs sound shut in by comparison. This more than anything is making things sound more like real music than ever before. Mids seem neutral but more fleshed out than my Hovs.
There seems to be a real synergy with the 4s, and everything that was great about them with my Hovs is taken to another level with the BSs, esp. density of tone, transparency and dynamics.
I'm totally smitten. |
Spirit,
That's very good to hear and the Audion seems an excellent fit into your system. The attributes you describe are what caught my ear and put me permanently in the SET camp 4 years ago. If any other topology sounds as natural and just plain real, I've not heard it yet.
Charles, |
Decided to listen to a whole day of cd's. Very interesting, with a little hint of frustration.
Firstly, with SETs, digital has never sounded so palpable and textural, obviously this is replicated from my experience with analogue.
Bass impact in particular is spectacular, it really is allowing me to melt into the music. The mids are the most transparent I've ever got from digital; I suspect the extra tonal clarity of the SETs in conjuction with the super fast FRDs of the Def4s is providing an amazing synergy.
My only issue is that the treble is sounding a little shut in, in direct contrast to my experience with lps.
Is is that analogue is so open in the higher frequencies which SETs and Def4s really maximise, that digital can't quite compete with, exaggerated by the technical superiority that digital has over analogue when it comes to the lower frequencies that the Def4's phemomenal sub bass drivers enhances to the max?
Or should I be looking elsewhere? Wasn't quite so aware of this discrepancy with my Hovs. Only a hint, but noticeable enough to comment on. |
Spirit - just a quick reply on your last comments regarding digital treble sounding "a little shut in". I haven't had an analogue rig since selling my Well Tempered Turntable in 1996; however, I do hear "shut in" treble from some digital software, but this seems to be more a mixing/mastering phenomenon than a limitation of digital (in my opinion).
The reason I say this is that I have heard this "shut in" treble on both 16/44.1kHz (CD) and on 24/96kHz recordings, yet have also heard very open treble from 16/44.1kHz and higher resolution formats up to 24/192kHz. More than likely the digital mix was poorly handled in the treble region due to poor ADC or poor mixing/mastering as opposed to a limitation with digital. Just my two cents.
Jordan |
Jordan, I'm a former Well Tempered TT owner myself, I really enjoyed it for years! Much better than my Linn Sondek LP12.
I agree with your assessment of digital treble reflecting the individual CD as opposed to the genre in general. I have many CDs with very good and natural treble extension, better than some of my records.
Charles, |
Charles - I did enjoy my WTTT and before that, my Linn Axis TT (used part of a student loan to purchase the Axis...just had to have it).
By 1996, I found it increasingly more difficult and expensive to find music I enjoyed on LP and finally bought my first digital system (that wasn't mid-fi). Bought an Audio Research CDT1 transport and mated it with a cheap California Audio Labs Sigma DAC. My intention was to upgrade the DAC when funds allowed. I really missed my analogue rig until about 6 years ago. Now...glad I've embraced computer audio. The issues really are predominantly in the software side |
Jordan,
My first really musically satisfying digital front end was the Timbre DAC with an Esoteric transport . I used this combo for 12 years. My current digital source is a level beyond and utterly organic and emotionally engaging. My Yamamoto DAC is built by a SET amplifier master, Shigeki Yamamoto, no coincidence as to why his DAC is so beautifully natural sounding.
Charles, |
Something which has helped. With analog, my Straingauge energiser means that at the gain setting on the Audions set at 12 o/c, I set my preamp volume at 2 o/c.
However if I leave the Audion gain there, when I switch to the cdp the volume is too loud, bass dominates, and I have to reduce preamp setting to 10 o/c. If I drop the Audions to 9 o/c I can take the preamp up to 3 o/c.
This is enabling me to get more dynamic contrast in the music, allowing treble to breath a little more, although I'm still getting a feeling of almost veiling in the upper frequencies.
Puzzling since high frequency extension seems limitless with analog. |
Spirit,
A few items from your SET experiment:
1/ These SET amps, and especially 845 SET, can be sensitive to mechanically-transmitted resonance and vibration. With Black Shadow monoblocks, one tends to place them close to the speakers and run relatively short speaker cables. With Def2's rear-firing sub-bass line array, the problem of mechanical resonance in the deep bass region was easily managed. I found with Def4 and the downfiring 12" sub, that I had to take extra measures to isolate my amps when placed adjacent to my speakers, and this is on a wood composite floor bonded to concrete in a 1-story slab foundation house. If you have suspended flooring, it's worse.
I use Herbie's Audio Lab Iso-Cup/SuperSonic Hardball under my Black Shadows, and Herbie's Medicine Balls under my Audion Golden Dream PSET amps. The difference in bass articulation and bringing bass back into balance is quite large. Without resonance management, the vibration transmitted into the amp induces what sounds exactly like steeply-rising bass harmonic distortion -- euphonically fat until it isn't. You might experiment with this to get the cleanest possible bottom end.
2/ 16/44 digital material definitely has a different top end presentation than analog, and both are highly variable by material as well as the source the system sees. By the latter, I mean that for vinyl analog, phono cartridges and cartridge/tonearm/tt combinations are virtually fixed-paramentric tone and phase controls. There's no objective standard despite the 20Hz-20kHz flat frequency trace that came with your cantilevered transducer. Same is true for DACs. There are some characteristic traits to 16/44, 24/48, 24/96, 24/176 and 24/192 sound, but they all have the potential to sound wrong in some way, as well as right. And Non-OS DACs for 16/44 material sound distinctly different than delta-sigma types. And then 1-bit DSD has its characteristics.
Given that the power tube (particularly) choice in an 845 amp discernibly alters presentation if not response, if you're really fanatic about it, you can listen to analog and digital on different output tubes. It isn't unusual for well-appointed vinyl analog to sound harmonically complete, compared to 16/44 digital. If you have a DAC with multiple filters to select, experiment with those alternatives. You may find that you prefer a different digital filter type for SET than for SS or push-pull tubes. The other thing you might consider is a good Non-OS DAC specifically for 16/44 material.
Phil |
Constant tinkering with the system is really producing dividends. I run a Symposium Isis rack for my equipment, and a short trial on Isis floating amp stands under the BSs really showed their worth, with a tightening of bass response, reduction of bloat, and preservation of extension. Some improvement in cables is helping. Thankfully, the top end in my digital is opening up. I'm surmising this may be an enhancing in cognitive ease on my part, rather than any change in actual performance. Whatever, the learning curve on SETs has been far steeper with digital than analogue.
My last avenue of real discovery may be running the BSs into the Def4s via a Townshend Audio Allegri autoformer TVC preamp. My Audion dealer runs many types of TVC eg Music First, Silvercore etc, but I'm quite taken by the Allegri. I've always rated Max Townshend's gear, esp. his various Rock tts, and various reviews really laud it, esp. Martin Colloms in HiFi Critic who gives it his highest praise.
So guys, any thoughts on running a TVC in this system? Phil, why do you think your TVC experience with the BSs was a relative failure, esp. when you rate it with the Golden Dreams? My Audion guy is puzzled you had a hard time since he extols the combination, and doesn't feel cable selection etc need be too critical. |
Spirit - not sure why, but the Black Shadows performed considerably better when driven by my Coincident Linestage than DAC direct, whereas the Coincident Frankensteins performed "slightly" better driven DAC direct. I don't know how this relates to using a TVC, just providing my experience.
A long time audiophile friend visited this weekend which resulted in a great deal of listening and comparisons among the Audion Black Shadows, Coincident Frankensteins MkII, and Atma-Sphere M-60's. He is a long time owner of Atma-Sphere MA-1MkIII's, my old pair actually. He too made the switch to OTL's after a long history of big SS and push-pull tube amps. He's also been very intrigued with my Zu Definitions, past and present, but his one criticism (i.e. "flattish" images, not enough dimensional "bloom") seems to be what's kept him rooted with his 2-way speakers listening near-field.
Well...he spent most of Friday and Saturday waxing on about how incredible my system sounds with the Audions now. On songs he is intimately familiar with and has heard in many very high dollar systems, he said that he'd never heard the songs sound this good and be so believable. This is high praise from this fellow!
Recognizing that in the larger context of high-end audio, the Atma-Sphere's are outstanding, top notch amps, and that they beat all prior comers in my system (and his), he felt there really were 3 distinct levels in my system/room this weekend: Black Shadows, Frankensteins, M-60's. He felt the image dimensionality, tone saturation, top-to-bottom tonal balance, conveyance of space, and sheer believability of the Black Shadows placed them in a league of there own.
Sitting off-axis for hours, upon hours of listening over 2 days to all 3 amps allowed me to better appreciate how the amps tonal balance and timing differed. Off-axis there were some differences in "stage" and image "bloom", but not so much to focus on. Both SET's have remarkable timing and yet the Audion was just a bit better. What I mean by remarkable timing is that the relationship between the leading edge, fundamental, and trailing harmonics of an instrument or voice seem more coherent in both time and amplitude. I realize that may be conflating two things, but my ears tell me they are important together. Perhaps what I just described is proper timbre, but the relative timing of it all was very important and I don't often hear that included in people's description of timbre?
The net effect was to make the Audions at once more relaxed and more involving. The Frankensteins were close in this regard, but added a bit of "excitement". That excitement, I believe, was related to a very mild frequency elevation in the upper mid/lower treble which modestly affected the relative amplitude relationship among some leading edge, fundamental, and trailing harmonics. We're splitting hairs here to some degree, but it was noticeable and repeatable. This frequency rise in lower treble/upper mids on the Franks also seemed to pull front and back of stage forward a bit. Not objectionable really, but noticeable.
The M60's put a little more emphasis on the leading edge which resulted in a little less tone density and oddly enough, gave a less satisfying sense of flow to the music, a strong point of the M60's in comparison to most all prior comparisons not including the Franks or Black Shadows.
The bass from the Franks came across a little bit stronger and with greater texture than the other two amps. I think this is an impressive accomplishment for a 300B amp.
Still, seated off-axis this weekend, I found myself drawn to the extraordinary top-bottom balance of the Black Shadows as has been the case over the last couple of months while seated on-axis. There is a relaxed, unforced way about it that does make itself known if you are attentive to this aspect of presentation and yet this enhances involvement in the music. It is anything, but boring.
Jordan |
Nice reporting Jordan!
1, The SET-Atma-Sphere comparison is what I hear also.
2,The Audion BS seems to be a wonderful 845 amplifier.
3,Hope you`ll able to hear your Franks with the Takatsuki tubes one day.The Black Treasure is a very good 300b.The Takatsuki is sumblime!
4,The Audion really clicks with your system. I can tell you`re extremely pleased and that`s beautiful.
5, I enjoy reading your insightful comments.
Charles, |
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Spirit,
I have listened to Music First copper & silver, S&B-based Django and several DAC-direct examples into Black Shadows and Golden Dreams sans preamp. Into the 300B PSET amps, TVCs were successful -- not better than my preamps but different in interesting ways and essentially silent. On Golden Dream, I can go either way: TVC or a select few active tube preamps. I almost always prefer a preamp over DAC-direct.
On Black Shadow, every TVC I tried was conclusively worse than my Audion, Klimo and Melody active tube preamps. Less shove, less tone density, flat depth dimension, soggier bass, more grain, reduced body & weight. I wasn't hearing the whole note from any instrument. The sound wasn't severely degraded but never equal nor preferable. I can't comment on your dealer preferring TVC with Black Shadow. Moreover, I've had three pair of Black Shadows brought to my systems by other owners to compare against my re-capped amps, and the result was always the same.
Why? I'm not sure, but I haven't really dug into it. I also haven't seen a schematic for these Audion amps. But despite both amps having only 3 tubes, the input and driver stages are different. The Black Shadow uses a 6922-family dual triode at the input position, and a 5687/e182cc dual triode as the driver tube. The Golden Dream has an Audion custom-number CVX100 input and CVX120 driver. Audion makes the claim these are somehow unique. No; they are selected. The input tube is an ec86 single triode and the driver is an e280F pentode. Those are quite different.
The input tubes that the TVC or preamp output sees differ, but both were originally developed for TV use. The 6922 was designed for amplifier duty in VHF/UHF tuners. The ec86, has more gain in a single triode and was intended for high frequency grounded grid amps in television applications. I don't know how Audion has deployed the 6922 dual triode in the Black Shadow. The driver tubes differ in that the 5687 family are dual triode types while the e280f is a pentode. It could be used in pseudo-triode mode. I haven't looked to trace the circuit. In any case, the two input/driver stages may simply present sufficiently different conditions to the source/pre/TVC output to cause what I hear. Audion is incomplete on their specs. The amp input impedances could be different, too.
In any case, I've found TVC superiority over active preamps to be selective and specific to certain amplifiers. For some amps, TVCs are decidedly worse than a very good active preamp, but usually much better than a poor one. For me, TVCs complement the Golden Dream amp yet fail to achieve synergy with the Black Shadow.
Phil |
Phil,
Given your considerable experience with 845 SET amplifiers,where does the Komuro 845 fit in your hierarchy.How does the Audion Elite 3 box 845(extra power supply?) compare to the Black Shawdow.
Charles, |
I'd like to echo the second part of Charles' question. The Elite 3 box seems like it should have greater potential than the Black Shadows, though certainly less convenient. From the little I can find on it, sounds like similar parts quality and internal silver wiring in the audio path are used? |
Thanks Charles. Never know for sure if my thoughts and writing are lucid so nice to hear it made some sense. |
Jordan I`m thrilled as can be with the CSL-Franks-Takatsuki pairing.I have no doubt I`d be every bit as satisfied with the Audion or another high level 845 amplifier.Thankfully there`s more than one road that leads towards Rome.You took a chance on SET amps and it certainly payed off for you in a smashing fashion.
Charles, |
Chas & GB,
The Audion Elite, as I understand it, was developed to keep the cost of the Black Shadow circuit in check. So it costs less than than a pair of Black Shadows despite having the cost of a third chassis. The Elite doesn't have "an extra power supply," it has a common power supply to both channels and that is isolated in the third chassis. Only audio circuitry is in each L/R chassis.
When I compared an Elite to my Black Shadows, it was tonally almost identical, but it was less punchy and tidal in its dynamics, and the soundstage was somewhat smaller. These were relatively small differences, so for anyone who needs to save the $1500 price diffence, the Elite 3 box 845 will be impressive and outperform almost all other 845 amps I can think of. But the 3-chassis arrangement is a difficult complication for placement.
Each of the three chassis is smaller than the chassis of the Black Shadow. I didn't get inside Elite and never got a clear answer from Audion about whether the power supply is just smaller than that in Black Shadows but still using two power transformers, or just one common transformer. I think it's the latter. Less than 2 lbs. separates the total packages by weight, though. Audion's own catalog describes the Elite as the "budget version" of the Black Shadow, though when it debuted, Black Shadow was discontinued and Elite was positioned as its successor. Popular demand for the real thing brought it back. Regardless, Elite sounded a step behind in direct comparison to its big monoblock brother.
Phil |
Hi Phil,
Thanks for the clarification. Somewhat ironic that the "budget" version has the inconvenience of more boxes resulting in a lesser sound quality. I'd spend the additional 1500.00 and get the better amplifier.
Charles, |
Phil, I've saved a little money on a good deal for the BSs freeing up the possibility of buying a TVC if it suits. Will post my views in about a month on the Townshend Audio Allegri.
I'm not holding my breath. My Hovland HP200 tube pre is forming a really great synergy with the BSs that I'm declining the chance to even hear the NATs in more detail that I was planning to audition. But an audition of the Allegri could be interesting.
I've sorted out my source components (you really should reconsider the Straingauge), loudspeakers (never moving beyond the Def4s), and now amp journey is coming to a close. Likely to chart my remaining audio purchases down system wide upgrades ie Symposium Isis stands for the BSs, possible rewiring of the whole i/c and power cord recipe with Zu Event, and upgrade to a Westwick Audio overkill 8kVA balanced power transformer and a second Spatial Computer Black Hole anti-bass wave generator. |
To ad to Charles's thought, adding an additional chassis should raise production costs in itself. |
>>To ad to Charles's thought, adding an additional chassis should raise production costs in itself.<<
If everything else is the same, yes. But if the collective power supply components are smaller and less costly, there may be net savings.
I bought, direct from Audion, what were claimed to be the last two Black Shadows produced at that time. The amps were announced discontinued with a replacement coming "soon." This was during the time Audion was changing from steel to aluminum chassis for the whole line, with an easier-to-build design and somewhat more contemporary aesthetics and improved interior layouts. When the new 845 amp was released, it was the three box Elite. For awhile, Black Shadow was represented as no longer in production, though there were hints that it might be possible to get a special order pair built. Interestingly, Golden Dreams, steel chassis and all the rest, never left the catalog.
After another change in US importers, the current agent advocated for restoring the monoblock pairs configuration and I was aware people elsewhere around the globe wanted it back, too. the Black Shadow was reborn. I assume the Elite version remains in the line as long as build stock exists, given the slim $1500 difference. There's no other reason I can see to keep it at such a relatively small savings over Black Shadow monoblocks.
Phil |
