I sent Srajan an email last night and and his reply was very insightful. I thought those following this thread might be intersted.
Hi Srajan,
the APL NWO-M player is considered by many to be one of the very best digital sources, cost no object. What I find astonishing is the equal level of competition from the Metrum Octave mini DAC. The price ratio is an absurd, no make that staggering 43:1! How can that be? Have you ever come across another component that compares evenly performance wise at such a tiny fraction of cost to the other component? How Cees was able to do this is a wonder.
Charles
It's a bit of a mind bender. My friend has the same NWO-M. Except his has 24 x 32-bit AKM 4399s per channel (mine 'only' has 20). And he also has the Metrum. And in two recent comparisons of different ancillaries in his system which I attended, he also preferred the Metrum fed from the NWO-M's Esoteric transport. So the real math must add that portion of the NWO-M's price to the Metrum. This begins to shift the 43:1.
Even so it remains exceptional and surprising. Other listeners could prefer the NWO-M but it's certainly true that the Octave performs on the level. The best way I can hypothesize at this achievement is the FirstWatt factor. Just yesterday we compared Nelson's new S2 prototype at my friend's place to amps at 6 times the price, then replaced a $1.500 preamp with one that was 30 times costlier. The best sound came from the $1.500 preamp with the S2. That preamp has the simplest of circuits. It's fully balanced transformer attenuation and nothing else. The S2 amp is single-stage single-ended no feedback. Simple circuits executed well with superior core devices (a silicon-carbide static induction transistor or power JFet in the amp, Cees' secret 'super' chip in the DAC) can outperform far more complex circuits. And simple can mean affordable if the designers of such pieces don't dress them up with bling but apply a fair raw cost-to-build to retail multiplier.
In amplifiers, paralleling output devices as is necessary to obtain high power from a given part is known to incur performance sacrifices without certain extreme measures. In the NWO-M, Alex Peychev parallels DAC chips 'endlessly' and does the related circuit board work by hand rather than robotically. If you look at the size of the parts on those boards (tiny), you begin to appreciate the hand labor costs involved. But are 24 paralleled delta-sigma DACs wired up by hand automatically better than a superior R/2R chip paralleled four times and inserted robotically in someone else's machine - especially if the latter chips include I/V conversion and output buffering to eliminate two stages where the other machine includes a tube buffer stage and output transformers?
If simpler is better (within reason), more complex and far costlier can lose. The Metrum/NWO-M case seems to be a case in point. Which makes the NWO-M no less of an achievement. It's a complete universal player which includes a 24/192 async USB input. The Octave is just a DAC. But here's the thing. You can only write the way you think. Audio designers can only create sound the way they hear. If you like my self-taught creative way of reviewing better than that of a formally trained writer working for a corporate paper who can recite all the rules and regs of grammar to perfection, the latter's credentials don't come to bear. If you prefer the sonic ideals of a cheap machine's creator to that of a super-priced component, the latter's credentials don't factor. There are multiple layers to consider.
Srajan |
What seems so promising regarding the Metrum Octave is it retains the innate qualities of NOS DACs,i.e. organic,relaxation,flow etc. yet offers very high level transparency, resolution and extension that some felt NOS DACs lacked.The numerous comparisons in sevaral reviews on 6 moons to the APL NWO-M at 40x the price is the highest compliment.
Clio09, thanks for the article link I look forward to reading it. |
If you would like a primer or just some additional information on chip architecture this is good reading: http://www.clarisonus.com/blog/?p=80#more-80I own a DAC with the TDA 154x architecture, owned the Monarchy M24 mentioned in the article that used the PCM-63K, and now have 2 digital sources that use the PCM-1704. The latter 3 use a ladder type architecture. After listening to these sources and comparing them to others using sigma-delta chips, it's quite apparent as to the differences in presentation. I was, and to an extent still am quite intrigued with the chip architecture of the Metrum. However, when push came to shove I decided to give the Resolution Audio Cantata a whirl. Given its price, I may revisit the Metrum at some point. |
oh man that feels like a lifetime away ;)
looking forward to your commentary. |
Hi,
Jcote, given your Shindo system I can understand your interest in these 2 DACs. I ordered my Metrum Octave 4 or 5 weeks ago, with a waiting period 8-12 weeks. I will post my impression in the future. KISS principal, yes I agree with you. Based on circuit layout and parts count the Metrum would be considered ultra simple. |
I'm very interested in the Yamamoto vs. Metrum Octave...These two DACS are extremely high on my list to join my Shindo system. I have not invested heavily in vinyl and hope to find a digital solution that gets me there. I've heard great things about Metrum and also a believer of the KISS principal as far as design goes. Charles, please keep me on your list of people to inform once you've had some time with the Metrum. I'd like to order before the price increase if it ends up being THE solution. |
Superb Charles, it seems that we have similar goals. Apart from Delta Sigma, there is also multibit dacs like Burr Brown PCM 1704, 1702, Philips TDA1501, Analog Device AD1865. Many consider these to be architecturally more correct for music reproduction hence a more natural sound. However I have not heard the better implementations of these DAC chips so cant comment.
Fingers are crossed for the Metrum !!! |
Hi Pani,
I`ve not heard the Reimyo player. You make some insightful points regarding analogue/digital differences.Music continuity and flow are a high priority for me as is "natural" tone/timbre and harmonics,A good analogue system excels in this vital area.The special ability and uniqueness of the YDA-01 DAC is how sucessful MR. Yamamoto was in obtaining this with his DAC.The flow and continuity is so well done. I do think much has to do with his many years of developing/building analogue and SET tube components, this background is apparent in his DAC.
I feel Yamamoto has near maxed out this quality using the very common delta sigma chip types. My speculation is that ultimately that R/2R DACs implemented correctly can exceed the limits of delta sigma designs(in terms of these "analogue" qualities) This seems to be what Srajan is also suggesting.The R/2R sound is not as "lite up" but is dense,present.3-D and superior in terms of flow,liquidity,ease and relaxation i.e. more similar to well done analogue(which is denser and more filled in).
Further it seems to me the very simple circuit of the Metrum is a major contributor, as many believe(I among them) fewer part count-straight forward design-strong power supply=better sound. Now add the use of a non-audio chip(extreme high speed industrial chip) built by someone who relied heavily on his ears, well good things happen.
Pani, it always comes down to what type of sound you`re after. For me, true tone, natural flow and ease,realistic microdynamics wirh exceptional resolution and nuance is the goal. i`ve achieved that to my satisfaction with my amplifier and linestage. The Yamamoto is very close, I hope The Metrum Octave gets closer yet. I suspect it will.
Best Regards, |
Hmmm....your comments are very inspiring. One thing is true that digital never sounds like analogue, at least I have never heard that happen. The continuity and liquidity of analogue is something so compelling that after a session of analogue listening even the best digital sounds discrete and thin to me. I attribute this to the absolute "continuity" of music that analogue presents. Yes there are other things like the midrange body, bass and treble presented by analogue is also something very special about analogue but that is something I can compromise a little on. What Srajan says is also true that analogue sounds "opaque" while digital sounds transparent and thinned out. If these R/2R dacs can solve any of these problems of digital playback without introducing a new one I would love to try them out. So, the Yamamoto remains as the DAC to beat when it comes to conventional design !!! Not bad :-). BTW, have you heard the Reimyo ? I used to own the Reimyo DAP777 for 2 years. Nice DAC. |
All300b,
Go to 6 moons.com letters page and scroll down to the recent corespodence. A reader asked this very question. Srajan said the Burson160D review is`nt quite finished but right now he prefers the Metrum Octave. Note worthy due to his very high regard for Burson against more expensive competitors. Also see comments on the last page of the Aries Cerat Gladius speaker review in the current issue.There additional comments concerning DACs. See his current April Music U3 review where 4 DACs are compared using the U3. |
This is interesting. I wonder how the Yamamoto would stack up now that there is "state of the art" USB-SPDIF converters like the Stello U3. Feed the Yamamoto a near-perfect digital signal and let it use just its converter and discrete analog circuits.
I have Srajan's "other" DAC- the Burson 160-D- waiting to see how he compares it to the Metrum.
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Pani I`ve not heard the Lavry Gold. I must admit the brilliant approach taken with the Metrum is quite exciting to me. I `ve been reading Srajan`s reviews for a long while and by now can sense when he finds a component`s performance exceptonal. He`s very descriptive and clear with his choice of words, If he felt this DAC too dark and or colored, he`d simply say so(he finds the tone natural and realistic, no digital artifacts). The Metrum is a blue moon recipient(as was the YDA-01,but we`re 3 years down the road from that now, things can and do get better).
I`ll put it this way, it you got the YDA-01 I`m convinced you`d love it. My hunch is however given the praise of the Metrum it has taken what the very fine(Yamamoto) does to the next level up.
Yes the wait time is 8-12 weeks( small company, hand built DAC, increased demand now) I`m patient, and the Yamamoto still sounds beautiful. |
Charles, have you listened to the Lavry Gold DAC ? It is also a highly regarded NOS DAC but the implementation is totally their own. |
Very very interesting Charles....
I would have gone with the Total if I had the opportunity to listen to it before buying. Did you notice that Srajan mentioned couple of times that the Metrum tone is darker and richer. Now that sometimes makes me nervous because tonally darker and richer many a times means change of timber towards the lush side. If you would have read, many romantic speakers (JMR, Spendor, Harbeth) are termed as richer and darker sounding, but to me they color the timber to the thicker and darker side. I just hope that is not the case with Metrum.
Anyway, from your explanation of the YDA01 I can see that you too recognize timbral accuracy well so I will take your word on the Metrum when you have it. Please do inform me when you get the DAC. BTW, I read that there is a waiting period for the Metrum DAC. When are you expecting it to come ? |
Pani,
Forgot to answer other questions.
1)Payed 2500 USD for YDA-1. JAN. 2010
2) No switch for 110/220 volts
3)Srajan sent me an email saying he did`nt directly compare the YDA-01 and Metrum. But said reviewer Joel thought the TotalDAC clearly bettered his own YDA-01. Srajan considers the Metrum and Totaldac as equally great, thus by triangulation he`d say the Metrum would out performs the YDA-01. |
Pani,
This is why I suggested you read the Totaldac review for context. That review compared the reviewer`s Yamamoto(which he loved) to the Totaldac and preferred this component. Srajan found the Metrum and Totaldac sonic equals(Metrum is 1/5 the cost!). Pani did you note his comparison to the APL NWO-M? very impressive(more tone,body and presence). As I mentioned before the Yamamoto sounds fantastic(really as good as anything else I`ve heard so far), but this Metrum seems a different level upwards.
He made it a point to emphasize the superior "resolution" and wide bandwith performance compared to typical NOS DACs, yet maintaining a profound analogue like and organic character(mentioned sevral times).He made a point that upper frequency detail,harmonics and decay are very much intact(no rolled off highs). Remember the Metrum is R/2R, based not delta sigma chip(Yamamoto). Srajan obviously thought highly of the Yamamoto(and for good reason) but feels this modern yet simple R/2R designed DAC is quite special. Analogue gestalt and rich tone combined with superior resolution not found in most NOS DACs(weakness of typical NOS DAC). You should read the current 6 moons review of the April Music U3 USB converter where 4 DACs are compared and again note the Metrum comments, very clear opinion.
Best Regards, |
Hi Charles, I just went through the review of Metrum DAC. It definitely is intriguing and for the price is just surprising. One thing though, Srajan did not at anytime talk about the Metrum Vs Yamamoto in his review (sonically). He spoke about other players but not Yamamoto. Now that has got me thinking. Did you talk to Srajan personally on this DAC and ask his views about this vs Yamamoto ?
One thing I know without even listening that Burr Brown DACs generally get the tone and timbre very correct. Considering that the YDA01 has been made by a hardcore Vinyl guy I cant think of it as sounding typically digital. Even Srajan had said in his YDA01 review that it just doesnt sound like digital is being processed. Both these factors together gives an amount of confidence on the Yamamoto which can lead me to go with a blind buy without hesitation.
But still, since you are getting a Metrum, I will wait for you to comment on it before taking the next step. How much did you pay for the YDA01 ? Is it switchable between 110V and 220V ? |
Pani, the only NOS DAC I heard was the Audio Note DAC 5 at CES 2010. It was for about 20 minutes(show conditions) I could`nt form a solid conclusion, but it did`nt really impress under those circumstances.
The Metrum Octave is quite a different approach i.e. much simpler design(good!)non audio chip(ultra high speed industrial, rather than old Phillips chip). It eliminates seperate I/V conversion and output stages(industrial chip intergrates these functions again very simple-fewer parts) also much effort into the power supply. Based on the differences it`s said to be a better-modern design than previous NOS DACs. We shall see. |
Hi,
Pani, I have the SS version
and use the PS Audio PWT as transport(ASI Liveline digital cable) this combo has been wonderful.
Srajan used the Yamamoto as his reference for quite a while.Given his very high praise of the Metrum Octave this certainly got my attention. We must hear things very similar as his strong recomendations have so far been 100% accurate based on my own personal listening followups.
Best of Luck, |
I tried the ACK Dac awhile back that did not use any over sampling or digital filters and did not like it. I heard the Zanden dac as well. To me these dacs are good in the mids but a little rolled off on the top, not my cup of tea. |
thanks for that elaborate reply Charles. Really helpful. So, do you have the YDA01 (SS version) or the YDA01b (tube version) ? Which transport are you using ? Have you heard other NOS dacs like Audio Note, BOW Technologies etc ? |
Hi,
Pani I`ve own the Yamamoto DAC for about 18 months(see my system) it is an excellent sounding DAC.It is very natural with quite an organic presentaion. The dynamics and tone/timbre are honest with a full bodied sound,yet with exceptional resolution and nuance. So far I`ve not heard any other DAC that I`d exchange it for.
However It seems the Metrum Acoustic Octave DAC may be superior. You should read it`s review in the current 6 moons.com. Also read the review of the Totaldac and then read S.Ebaen`s second opinion review.
Please note what the Metrum was compared to for context.I purchased the Yamamoto based on Srajan`s review(he was absolutely spot on). He`s more impressed by the less expensive Metrum. I`ve ordered one and am waiting patiently. This DAC is NOS(no digital filtering) but with R/2R configuration using ultra high speed industrial chips, not the common delta sigma types. It`s said to be sumpremely transparent, organic-analogue like, but with excellent resolution and ease.Much more resolved than most current NOS DACs.
Best Regards, |
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I have been following this dac for sometime and have it on my must audition list. Has anyone heard it ? It is priced very attractively at under $3k but how does it sound ? Srajan Eaben seemed to replace his APL NWO player with this dac, Whats in it ? |
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I think nobody auditioned this dac yet ? |
