wilson ad; absolute sound;issue 162. page 12.... dave wilson states in his ad that wilson loudspeakers have one of the [ lowest ] profit margins in the industry. My question is should wilson make public their profit margin percentage's to back up their claims or is this more hyperbole from a high-end audio manufacturer...
Drubin- Shipping is typically born by the purchaser. The other points you raise are post production and not considered part of the production cost so they don't alter the model as I presented it. The ads in question seemed to state that Wilson enjoys a smaller margin than other manufacturers. My figures represent an educated guess as to how that might not be true. I don't claim to know any facts and figures. However, even if the margin is any smaller than any number of other manufacturers, the volume and unit price still land him among the gentry. None of the realities of Dave's finances really matter here as long as the assertion in the ads is correct. The numbers as I see them probably contradict that claim.
Two days ago, I phoned Wilson to request information on the Watt Puppy 8. I'm a brochure hound, I admit it. Today, I received a large folder containing a personalized letter, as well as contact information for the Wilson dealer closest to me. In the packet were printed reviews and individual catalogs for every product they sell. The last speaker manufacturer I phoned for a brochure sent a photocopy of only two reviews, and this after I had to send them six e-mails and phone them twice over a 3-month stretch. Each time, the sales rep had said "it's in the mail". Incidentally, they are in the same price range as Wilson. You can draw your own conclusions, but to me, this packet attempts to say that they value the customer as a person, not as a price. Hence the reason many people use the purchase to reciprocate the same sentiment.
I like Macrojack's comments on the "real" (somewhat relative) value of any speaker. What he is trying to bring out is that we really need to take a step back and see what we are paying for, his moto and mine would be "by paying more, you may not get more". macro goes on to say , how anyone cares to spend their money is their business, he just wants to get things in focus, he enjoys making critical assessments of price structures. I like his approach. I hate to keep briing up the Seas (stop HYPEING the Seas' would ya please!!!) I added up the price of the drivers as sold retail on madisound add in the Xover parts, + finely made cabinets, attractive, the price comes to very close to exactly what I pd for the kit. Sure I had to pay Richard Grey a fair price (he charged much less than what I actually gave him), took him all of about 30 minutes for BOTH!. Speedy on the gun. Then considering whats in it for the designer of the xover, Dr Apolito, nothing really. I can account for every $ in my speaker. Whats its true value, well each has to make his own conclusions after hearing. You may find its not for you at any price. For me its adifferent story(that is I'd pay much more). The B7W's I bought a few yrs before the seas' kit, cost me $800 for the 602's. Frankly after knowing their sound after a few yrs, they are not worth what i pd. I;d say $500 is fair price new. I see they've come down in price to $700 new/603's, taller cabinet. . Macro asks, "are you getting value for what you are paying for?" Its a harmless question, but one that should be asked, especially as our $ is shrinking in value in this current economy. Look it was Mr Wilson that opened up this 'can of worms" in the first place, with his ad statement. No one is bashing Wilson, just trying to put things in proper perspective. I actually heard the Wilson line 6 yrs ago, can't recall the associated components, or the exact sound, just know what I heard at that time.
>>>"No one is bashing Wilson, just trying to put things in proper perspective." <<<
I'm still chuckling at that comment. Obviously, you haven't read the thread through, or decided to skip over the posts that were full on baseless attacks, numbering at least a dozen.
MacroJack did a good job of describing basic economics and margins within general commercial enterprise--not high end electronics or speakers however. He wholly skipped many fundamental equations. Using gross anecdotes and generalities is no smoking gun nor evidence of poor, moderate or good value. What the ad says can stand or fall on it's own merit. Based on Wilson's history, standard of quality, incredible used market value and top-line dealer support, I'd say the ad is more true than not.
It's easy to take on-line anonymous pot shots. Another thing altogether to put your procuct, business, reputation and _word_ on the line for any Tom, Dick or Harry to scrutinize or belittle.
Dave's done it for years. Who among AudioGon rock throwers cares to claim the same?
It amazes me how these threads predictably run ad nauseum.
For me, my mantra has "ALWAYS" been....."let your ears and your wallet decide. It should be that simple. If someone is happy with an $800 DIY kit, I have no problem. However, why is it that the same people all too often try to inflict their economic beliefs that those on the other side are either wrong, arrogant, seeking status or etc, etc?
Bottom line is that there is no correct answer other than for each of us to do what lights up our ears and rocks our sonic boat. I have owned at least 25 different sets of speakers over the past 35 years. Over the last 10 years I have worked my way up the Wilson line from WP 5.1's,WP 6's, MAXX's, X-1 Series 3 and now the X-2's. I couldn't agree more with the comments as to their absurd price. However I have toured the Wilson factory in Provo and seen the workmanship as well as the quality control that goes into the production of a pair of these speakers. It takes at least 2 weeks to build and finish a pair. The quality control is exceptional and the customer service is secondary to none.The staff at Wilson audio are always receptive to a phone call to give advice as to one's concerns. I have also visited Dave Wilson's home to hear a demo between the X-1 and the X-2. That was in October 2003. Just when I felt that I had the perfect system, I knew after hearing the X-2's, my X-1's sounded broken.I have done this hobby for 35 years. It is what I enjoy after a busy day at the office. It is rest and relaxation.I ordered my speakers in November 2003 and had to wait until April 2004 to take delivery as only 2 pair per week go into production. The wait was worth it. For the installation my dealer flew 2 installers to my house to take down my X-1's,crate them up and arranged to ship them out. They spent 2 days at my house setting up the X-2's and fine tune the system. In the course of those two days, many phone calls were made to Wilson Audio to ensure the exact positioning of the upper modules. When they left I felt that everything I have strived for in audio over the previous 35 years had been reached. What other company in the speaker business provides this same degree of customer satisfaction? IMO there just isn't a better speaker in the market today than the X-2. Certainly there are many in this price range or even higher. It is curious to me how it is only Wilson Audio that always takes the beating for his high priced speakers. Dave is sincere in his passion and quest to bring audio nirvana to we audiophiles. He is an absolute gentleman. Was it expensive for me? Absolutely. Based on my mantra, that is my story. I am certain however that I will never buy another set of speakers. My journey is complete.
However, why is it that the same people all too often try to inflict their economic beliefs that those on the other side are either wrong, arrogant, seeking status or etc, etc?
Because we live in a culture where everyone desires financial success, and yet most are begrudging of those who have achieved it.
Boa2 "..everyone desires financial success, and most are begruding toward those who have achieved it". First I'll say I do not have money, nad Katrina made that even worse (no job) and even if I did , that is have BIG $'s the wilson's would not even be on my list, not even a consideration. I do not see any unfair comments made by us "the poor and the dejected" towards wilson's speakers. Only saying what we know. When spaekers are the topic we should mention all the +'s/-'s of each line. I heard thE wilson's 5 yrs ago at a local shop in New Orleans, and frankly was not impressed in any way/shape/form. btw you do not see post much in the amp forum, beacuse everyone will have his particular taste and amps have a much greater range of characteristics. Ecah can pick and chose as he pleases. But when it comes to speakers then I'll have my opinion in this most critical component. Are you buying the Wilson just because YOU can afford it? See that comment works both ways.
That you heard a Wilson speaker in a N.O showroom and disliked the sound is no surprise. Some dealer set ups of Wilson speakers are sub-optimal. Was it Wilson Audio (no relation) or Audio Resource where you heard the speakers? Can't recall which carries the line.
>>>btw you do not see post much in the amp forum, beacuse everyone will have his particular taste and amps have a much greater range of characteristics. Ecah can pick and chose as he pleases.<<<
Please tell me your kidding. I don't think I'm out on a limb in stating that speaker/room type/setup are _by far_ the greatest arbiters of the end result in sound quality in _any_ 2 ch. system.
Amp/speaker interface is a distant second--but that's a shortsighted analogy as all factors, source. pre, power, signal etc are important-- but speaker room/set-up are #1 with a bullet. Screw that up and nothing else matters.
I'm not saying Wilson should be for everyone, but it does strike me-- the number of people with negative things to say that have _no_ direct experience with the Wilson speakers other than stating "I heard it at a "dealer" or a "show" as if that constitutes valid opinion compared to in home audition.
I'm not a Wilson defender. I have enjoyed a great many speaker designs in my day and would never critisize others choices or imply anyone is a dupe or has more money than sense in their speaker choice, ---yet that is exactly what is occurring here, with posts inferring the choice of a Wilson speaker is status related--what absolute nonsense.
With so much business in speakers, electronics and cables going to China, Taiwan etc from the US, I'm surprised there's so little latitude given, by so many, for a US company that keeps everything in house. If anything, we should keep that in perspective. Do you have _any_ idea how much it costs for a US company to keep production stateside versus overseas? I do.
You want Chinese made product translated to speakers, keep it up and you'll have your wish.
Compromised Chinese made products at inflated US prices. Think I'm ill informed? I've got a set of faux US set of Chinese golf clubs to sell ya.
We did not start this. It was Dave who wants to kiss and make up. No doubt due to sagging sales. No matter how successfull there are only so many units to be sold in high end audio. Dave figures there maybe some people who want Wilson's but will not buy because of misconceptions about price gouging. In WIlson's defense he has the line covered from top to bottom. Around $6k for the Cubs all the way to the top.
To be honest I did hear the 'slamms with cj art 2 and premier 8's sound good. It just seemd I could do better for less.
Maybe Dave should make a turntable. They seem to be the new"chic".
I was watching this old house and yes there was a high end turntble setting on the counter. " A good turntable can sound better than CD". Yikes!!
Oneobgyn-your system remains the envy of audiogoners and no one thinks you were ripped off.
BOa I understand that you did speak in a general sense. No harm done. Grant, as much as I admire a particular amp designed in germany/built in china, I'd never buy a chinese speaker, unless of course it was designed by the Danes with Danish parts. The chinese will never make a speaker on their own, worth my interest. The chinese may copy some things in the future, but never to match equally the best Danish drivers. If a amp made in china can deliver what Im looking for(sound quality/build quality) at a very fair (low/cheap) price, I'm gonna go for it. Sure I feel for the US/brit labs. They are about to "take the hit", maybe a big one. I just took the "katrina hit'. Life is not fair, such it is. I heard the Wilson's in a fair setting, no disadvantage at all. What amp it was/cdp I cannot recall. I look at it this way, Wilson sets himself up for criricism. Why? Because at those prices you should expect a sound that matches. When i go to hear a expensive speaker I kick my critical era up a few notches. Nothing gets by me, I nail down every fiber of the sound. I zone in to each range of fq to see whats really going on. i disect the sound, and also do a macro imaging test, soundstage = does it sound lifelike, vividness as someone called it.
"all prices covered...the bottom range at $6K..." Not many of us can afford that asking price, though i know used they can be had for half. Still I think I can do better. I guess Tvad balances out my comments on Wilson with his "Wilson magic". I realize Wilson is directed to a specific high end market and alot of attention goes into his product. If you want big sound, maybe its the price you gotta pay. Whatever.
Tvad, not refering to Von Schweikert. What I was getting at it China may build some electroics/many designs copies from french, or designed in europe, when it comes to speakers they have a ways to go to catch up to the Danes. I realize many here do not want to see ssales on amps go to the chinese, but this is what the new world economy is all about. Think about this, the latins from all over central america come to this country for decades now, and in ever increasing numbers, which i have no issues with. Miami is the "capital of cuba". But for some reason they ALL (90%) buy Toyotas. That is (used to be 100%) a japenese car. Don;'t you think if they REALLY love this country they'd at least consider a Detroit car? They do not. I do not post much on the amp forum cause everyone can pick and chose his style. Speakers is a different animal, for the most part. Some are in fact better than others.
Tvad , have not even 1 Tyler. I am basing my opinion on the fact he uses the same drivers as my seas' kit. I figure the sound msut be close. I have plans to pick up a pr of Systems 2, the 3 way, sometime next yr. Wish I could offer a more solid opinion. There is areview out on Tyler in one of the audio mags, this month.
I have to say that this question is simple. If you look at many of todays loudspeakers, and the availability of parts, Madisound, parts express, sonic craft etc..., software for cabinet sim and x-over design and the web for complete cabinet drawings it is a DIY dream. The DIY speaker world, is wide open, you can create a kit, or even a complete home brew, that will sound great and look fantastic, it may even rival the best out there, of course most folk that say that are always a victim of Beraneks law (Beranek's Law It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.) This can save you, in some cases thousands of dollars, of course in most cases there are some flaws, the drivers were not matched and measured individually and the x-over was not matched to the drivers, more likely they were soldered and installed. This again may achieve great result for a good price.
This is where the Wilson comes in, NOBODY could build a Wilson in there Garage, for less money, it would be much more expensive to build a direct DIY copy of a Wilson. This is not a speaker that looks like a Wilson made out of MDF, but X and M, machined parts, custom spikes, perfect paint, perfect copy, good luck it would cost the amount of a small house for such a project. The Wilson love them or hate them are a engineering masterpiece when it comes to overall build quality, the DIY world cannot order machined ports from Madisound, you will have to go to a machine shop and have them make you a few, big money if you have them finished like Wilson. The difference in price between plastic ports ordered directly from a parts house or a custom machined port will be 20 fold. I implying the machined ports will be superior sonically to the plastic, but more to say that it is not the same as a Wilson. There are many high-end speaker that with some design exceptions (of course the ones that matter to me, driver and x-over matching) you can get pretty close out of your garage for less money. Wilson will cost you more to make at home, and you will still not come close to a perfect copy. If you feel they do not sound good, do not buy them, but they are a very expensive speaker to build and a design that cannot be done DIY for less money, so in my book they are an extreme value. If you think, I am wrong then build a perfect copy of a Wilson cheaper again not MDF and stock parts, and bad paint, a perfect copy.
L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.)
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