Inept, Show me the brakes. Seriously, I did finish 5th grade. Actually went a little bit further, let's just keep that between you and I. For at least my benefit, please demonstrate the criterea you use to make your diagnosis of my current malady. Any cars, planes, boats(!), trains, motorcycles, or any other thing that rotates, and is slowed or stopped by the use of drums? That was built in THIS CENTURY? I put the boat in there just in case you think they have "brakes" by ANY classical definition. My boat TRAILER does in fact have disc brakes on one axle. I missed the dynamics part, where was that? I swear I don't remember expounding on vehicle dynamics. I was saving that for another post! Can you cure this malady? Can you fix any of the other things that are wrong with me? Shall I make you a list?
128 responses Add your response
Z,I'm not old enough to have a grandson....I lied, I am but have none!!...As to anything influencing a newbee,who cares?It's not the job of a hobby/discussion forum to create market interest,IMO! Yet,I know "we do" agree on balance.You and I..BUT..I don't think any of my posts are going to influence anyone that I am anything other than a "sometimes/often-times" bloviator.One that has an enthusiastic approach to a fun hobby.Someone that likes to "rap audio".Something I was accused of in my college days!While helping to take over my dorm,protesting the Vietnam war.Even though I was, "in actuality", just trying to pick up this "way hot" militant chick,who blew me off anyway!! Best. |
Sir, Perhaps there will come a time when we disagree, this is not it. I too appreciate the enthusiasm and passion of this other member. Once again, it's the REFUSAL to accept that anything newer can be better. We have enough challenge (fun?) convincing the next gen that Vinyl is our highest resolution source (not now, tape guys!) without someone who obviously has no idea what current SOTA is, preaching his ideas as ALL THERE IS. THAT is the problem here. Read the posts. Seven hundred and fifty some "answers" and no questions... Very telling. Sure, you and I might know what to take with a grain of salt, but someone might actually believe the guy! My turn to go a bit off topic; if your grandson was walking across an intersection in the rain and the light goes yellow, do you want the guy with SOTA drum brakes to be in the vicinity? Or the guy with ABS, all other things being equal? The guy with the drums can preach all he wants, nobody is listening, they haven't been for twenty years or so. This "other" member could have listeners and the junk he claims is SOTA can be obtained. CHEAP. Worse yet, installed and used! Point is if a newbee stopped there, the 99 dollar "Best Buy" uni will sound better. And we have lost another one. Not to mention, now my 45's cost 60+ bucks not 50+. These forums are a great place for folks wanting to share a better idea, or an OPTION, not a revisionist history class. |
"light weight compared with drums, was the main advantage." What about resistance to fade and ability to work in the wet? Now we have REALLY gotten off topic, so back to the OP. My guess is that some manufacturers (starting with VPI I believe) saw an increasing availability of tangental arms as new product development responded to the resurgent interest in vinyl. Since the biggest advantage with tangental arms is reduced tracing distortion, decisions were made to develop arms longer than the standard 9" that might reduce such distortions without involving other issues for tangental arms. The fact that new design, material development, and manufacturing processes could overcome some of the high mass and rigidity issues from longer arms manufactured 30 years ago has been a bonus. A second factor could be the overall upgrading in resolution of tables and cartridges so that performance of tonearms has been demanded and appreciated, whether by 12" or tangental arms. And peace Raul. I understand that in your experience, you have not found such product development to outweigh basic system matching/compatibility. But that is another story and does not address the OP question. |
BTW,"Z",I happen to like the person you seem to be critical of.I like his enthusiasm,and his well meant intentions!!Always have!! Like everyone shoud do with my comments(I must come off as hot air,often)some things should be taken with a grain of salt.So,I like when we get ALOT of varying opinions.I've gotten myself into alot of trouble with my own poor interjection of some of own opinions.I "think" I've learned from "posting" experience,over time.The opinions I disagree with I throw out,and the other ones I attempt to learn from. Don't take this as a wrist slap,'cause you are a very interesting poster. Best. |
Mr E, Back when your cars had drums (I think they were actually called Horseless Carriages, right?) the vehicle didn't last 60,000 miles, come on! Your perception of increased stopping power is correct. As power increased, and traction improved (or are you in the bias ply camp too?) wear, temporarily increased. Ancient history. Lighter weight, not so sure... Certainly not today. (Think ceramic) You posted from a computer, yes? The "good old days" really weren't, were they... Z. |
Okay, This ought to be good! Please tell me what I am missing here. I can't find a drum anywhere. My '67 XKE had discs. (poorly executed) That was, by my math, at least 40 years ago. That's "19"67... Let's check in shall we; this IS 2008, right? A Nissan Sentra has discs. A Hyundai has discs. My BICYCLE has discs... Back to fifth grade science again; metal expands as temp increases, with me so far? Drums GROW when used, (the whole idea behind brakes!) The shoes get FARTHER from the drum the more they are used. Becoming ineffective. (opposite of the whole idea behind brakes) Ever wonder why those runouts are built on the DOWNHILL side of the road? Got any idea how they slow a FREIGHT TRAIN down? An Airplane? You are just messing with me, right? Discs are bound by the same physics (sorry, it's true) they also GROW when hot, getting CLOSER to the pads. Becoming MORE effective. You are laughing, aren't you? Same goes for carburetors too, right? Blows fuel injection away, when it's done right? How about you rattle off a few examples where that applies! If you are still using a quill pen and an Abucus, how did you access this thread? OH NO, not utilizing modern technology! NNNOOOO!!!!! Z. |
Inpepinnovations...When my cars had drum brakes the shoes had to be replaced at about 60,000 miles. At that time the drums would be turned (remachined). Nowadays, with disc brakes they go in as few as 25,000 miles, and the rotors are so thin that they can't be remachined, so you need to buy new ones. But the disc brakes do work well. Disc brakes were first used in aircraft, and next in race cars, where light weight compared with drums, was the main advantage. |
Sir Albert, (oohh! I like that!) Sir can always be used to great effect. Apparently, not good enough to land me a 312s, however. The Alka-Seltzer link reminds me of a song...(hey, you have your show, Sir) I won't rest now until I dig it out. Is it STYX? "Too much time on my hands". Mr Porter Sir, don't you think time would be better served disassembling and carefully packing the 312? We, Sir, are also dealing with a very serious matter here in this thread; A gentleman with perhaps 10k total investment, along with HUNDREDS of hours of wasted time, claims his system approach is the ONLY way to go, and further Sir, that it performs better than what you and I have achieved COMBINED! Alright Sir, I should leave you be. Remember: righty tighty, lefty loosy! Tracking # ? Z. |
Hey, that's as good a response as any other, "Sir." Don't let that keep you from watching "Law and Order" they use that term to great effect. Now if you had been referring to him as "Speedy" I would have known where you were coming from. No confusion between Sirspeedy and (say) Speedy Alka- Seltzer (or, see link below). Speedy, not Alka-Seltzer |
My Dearest Sir Mr. Porter Sir, Sir is short for Sirspeedy, Sir. Although this gentleman commands the respect, I call him Sir mostly because he agrees with me! We aren't facing down any criminals, just attempting to convince another gentleman to remove his head from way too deep inside of his you-know-what. So that he might be better able to hear the voice of reason. Can I borrow the 312S, Sir? Z. |
Sir, I have done more than my share of similar demos. I use a slightly different tactic: I start with their mp3 then play a CD, then the same mat'l on SACD. By this time there are several pools of drool to wipe up. THEN, the same mat'l on vinyl. I love to watch the head scratching, the audible questioning of their own sanity, and the inevitable "what is behind the curtain?" kids that just can't quite believe it. Big fun, you're fighting the good fight! We may actually be getting somewhere with "you know who" !! I see in the last response a glimmer of hope, "one way/road". Perhaps, there is another/several? Yippee!!! Pretty soon, we may see an aknowledgement that even perfectly executed 25 year old drum brakes are, in deed "second rate". I will not hold my breath for "I am/was wrong". But you Sir, can come over any time. Z. |
Dear Onlwy61: +++++ " On topic -- I'm in the camp that the best sound is achieved by the implementation of a technology rather than being specific to any given technology. And at the user end, exacting setup, and at least at the high end, system matching can easily trump "better technology". " +++++ Right on target: know-how!, well this is one way/road. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Z(love that name-tag,btw),definitely agree about the willingness to listen "thing"!! Many potential "new" hobbyists have no clue as to just how "supremely special" a superb high res system can be. I had a few of my son's med school friend's hear my vinyl recently.They knew "Andrew's" dad was "into" music.I always told my son not to advertise my system/hobby,but this was one situation where this group was very curious about how the "old stuff"(LP's) sounded.They knew I had something "special" behind my "locked" door,to the music room. One proclaimed that he had heard vinyl was "interesting",but had never heard a record.The rest of the group basically were curious,but not expecting much from the "old stuff".....Actually,when they viewed the walls "lined" with LP's there was an interesting sound of awe, seeing all that music,shelved to the max! Heh,heh....here was my "shot"!!!I knew I had to open up the listening session with a bang,so I chose an old direct disc of "superb" percussion music."MUSIC",not percussive sound effects!!!Like works by Charles Wourinen,George Crumb,Ernst Toch. Chose the prgm material carefully(for these fairly opinionated fellows). Basically,after about two hours,they were "amazed" at what can be accomplished with a simple(not really),old,two channel system,using "almost gone" technology.There was a complete sense of "I didn't realize how great those old records could be",universally proclaimed by each guy. I'm frequently asked to "play it again",whenever one of them comes over....Felt good!!Really good!! Sorry,as I know I'm not being thread specific,and DO get carried away alot.Will stay on subject more often. Best. |
Sirspeedy, we agree once again. Openmindedness (is that a word?) is at the crux of this forum. Halcro puts it so perfectly. I, as an example, continue to listen to some old lps. It is the rare exception, rather than THE RULE, that the old ones sound better than the latest crop. The thing is, neither you nor I are in a position to "decree" that old stuff "unfortunately" is so much better than the current SOTA. Or that only new is good. SO WE DON'T! Our community is "blighted" by any member who opposes this common sense approach. Like I said, my mail box is full to overflowing. At retail, I have in excess of 100k just in cabling in my system. You better believe that I tried VERY hard to take a different perspective, to stand back, to ask, not answer, before opening my wallet this wide. Then I tried again! (MY wife) You and I Sir, we get it. As does most of the membership. Our mission, should we choose to accept it (we must) is to spread, even if just a little, this common sense, this perspective, this openmindedness (once again), this willingness to listen and (maybe) learn. You can still come over any time... Z. |
Z,guess I'm getting a bit too uptight-:) Trust me,I am fanatical about "fine" equipment,and probably love the stuff too much("wife not happy"-:).I could have put both kids through college for what I've spend on the hardware alone!Don't get me started on the software!! Thanks for the reinforcement of my point,but though we mutually agree,sometimes I like to view things from different perspectives,sometimes.Kinda keeps me grounded!! Basically I'm stating that one should not be so quick to be an audio snob(nobody in particular),due to the ownership,and exposure to the best componentry around,and don't be so quick to blow off another person's product choices!!Even if old!!One can be really surprised with the ingenuity of musicophiles/hobbyists!!There is very little I,personally, have not heard,and what I am currently listening to will definitely keep me in the running for a long time.Yet.... The ONLY reason for my dumb rant,is that SO often I've been exposed to less costly,or somewhat older(but fine) gear,in very well thought out set-ups.Seriously well thought out and carefully matched!Yet,not close to new,but amazing for it's own values.Charles King,the Stelavox tape player re-mod specialist( a genious) demonstrated this to me,with a "low brow,but face on the floor good" little set-up,that blew away anything I had heard for the previous six months.I was exposed to the BIG NOLA four tower system "two months prior",and with the ASR stuff,in "the" room,to "do" that particular system,and liked it,but no lovefest,after realizing the Charles King set-up just "had magic"!.Hey,it's just my ever changing taste! I may have definitive critical views,when in "my moods",but after being at this hobby as long as me,exposure to unique/different takes on how some folks like their music reproduced is very enlightening! I am a very open minded listener,and won't pigeonhole myself into believing the latest has to be the best.Too often it isn't!Though my pal's new Magico Mini/Rowland/Audio Research/Phantom/Orpheus set-up sounds amazing!!...Well,it just does!! It takes a long time to "voice out" a really good system,and having new stuff(probably half of what I own is quite new,and too expensive,btw)is not the road's end. Of course next week,someone will probably put out a thread which will more than likely ignite the other "snobby" side of me.I'll embarrass myself,by going on about how my exposure,or ownership,of some new "figamajig" is the "only way to go",and that the "someone" does not have it maxxed out! That's one reason why all my posts(from day one)should not be taken too seriously.Just hobbyspeak! Best. |
Some people are really impressed by themselves. I could more easily accept it if they were to add something positive to the conversation. On topic -- I'm in the camp that the best sound is achieved by the implementation of a technology rather than being specific to any given technology. And at the user end, exacting setup, and at least at the high end, system matching can easily trump "better technology". Finally, since any two audiophiles seemingly cannot agree as to what constitutes "the best" does any of this thread really resolve anything? |
Dear, And I do mean Dear Sirspeedy, I have been in agreement with you all the way through this thread. I too am in it for the music. I offered an answer to the OP early on, and a member with almost no logic or science to support it, offered advice that if followed, would make us all look bad. I responded again, and started getting tons of mail from members (that I had never had contact with!) cheering me on. This gentleman has a system that sounds like, well, Halcro put it best, "second rate". I can almost give the guy credit for being so stubborn, but he is so far off base... In a contest between this fellow and the world (which it seems to be) I'm bettin' on the world. Know what I mean? Anyway, if my house was on fire, I'd get as many LPs as I could FIRST, and leave the gear. Most of which is, arguably, SOTA. BTW, that was a 15,000 dollar turntable you just let get away! You can still come over, any time. Z. |
Zieman,I don't disagree with you at all!!I love SOTA stuff....AND,I hear the difference,like you claim you do!!Surprisingly(maybe to some,like you)I believe that what I have put together in my own dedicated two channel room is close enough to not have to worry about the nuts and bolts for at least "three months"!OK? BTW,my best audio buddies have non to shabby stuff,ranging from BIG Pipe Dreams,Magico Minis,Big Infinity four tower speakers,CJ ART,etc....I hear the difference,and our little get-togethers OFTEN spill blood,from frequent critical observations......I've made the investment myself,but we STILL split hairs too much.....TOO OFTEN!!....I say,don't stop...but...take a step back,"sometimes"!Well,maybe not you!!OK? I guess you did not like my Andy Rooney routine-:) Sorry. |
Dear speedy, I have been collecting lps for about 30 years. At last count I had over 6000. I quit counting some time ago... I still have the turntable I bought before I bought my first lp. It would be my pleasure to point you to the shelves and say "pick which ever you want" and we will play them. First, on my 30-some year old turntable, that looks and performs better than new, and was "state of the art" 30-some years ago. Then we will play it on something quite new, though SEVERAL rungs down from SOTA. You can tell me/us which one made the music more enjoyable for you. I think I know the answer, and if I'm wrong, you can HAVE the new turntable! How's that? |
I don't want to give the "suspicious" poster the impression that I am downplaying the "top" stuff of today.Also,I basically can't state that the superb retro set-ups I've heard are comparable,in all "meaningful" areas to such componentry. What I am saying(from being lucky enough to hear a ton of differing system approaches)is that we(myself included)can easily get caught up in the "gadgetry race".Sometimes over-thinking/analyzing the mechanical aspects of "our" hobby can be a detriment(not always),and this can easily become an expensive game of musical chairs. I assume(hopefully)that the majority of us got into the hobby for the love of the "music" firstly!I did. Once one gets into this hobby,deeply,it is very easy to get too into the "gizmotic"(made that word up)aspects of why our stuff sounds so good.We like the reinforcement of industry folks,like good reviews,and good word of mouth to make us feel better about what we have invested in.Also,it is very cool to get good feedback from other owners,and see posts of how they,like us,love some familiar products. There is a large contingent of music lovers/lp collectors that think that the equipment aspect of the hobby is there ONLY to serve the music.No big stretch there,and almost everyone feels similarly....BUT,these guys(many of which I've met over the years at The Princeton Record Exchange)"really get off" only on the music.The equipment is "nice" to them,but to hear them "go off" on a particular LP "find",and the performance held within the grooves,really has made me feel "sort-of" too materialistic.Liking the "hard work" I've put in, and sonic attributes of my mechanical devices,used to play "music",maybe a bit too much! I am not eloquent enough to put across the point I am trying to make! I think that if you have spent alot of time "collecting" and putting together a GREAT music collection(dwarfing the legitimate viability of the materialistic aspect of the hobby)it is far easier to become enraptured with the way music affects us. There REALLY IS A TON of "not the latest",but "SO" enjoyable systems out there,that it is not hard to become adjusted to different sonic approaches taken by some, in this hobby! It's nice to "let up" a little on our inner "critical listener",sometimes....When things sound "right"!! Some time ago,while collecting at Princeton,I ran into this exchange student,from Korea.WHAT A LOVELY GUY!!! A real music lover/lp collector.He got SO enthusiastic about the hobby(he liked equipment too,but could not afford the latest)during our discussion,that he asked me if I wanted to give a listen to some of his LP "finds" that he had made,during the ONE semester he would be in this country.He was like a little kid,showing me his new toys.Such enjoyable enthusiasm.Instant commradery! So,I decided it would be worth while to get another "take" on how someone else,from another culture approached the hobby,while in my community.He loved RCA,Mercury,Decca classical stuff,like me. I was bowled over by this simple setup!!!Not a large room.Not very pricey stuff.Just "truly" wonderfully reproduced "music".He surely knew what he was doing!! I had a great time...The fellow lost hid grant,soon afterwards and went back to Korea,but I know a LOAD of good LP's went with him!I've not heard from him since,but always show my wife,and daughter the little yellow house he lived in,when we pass by. Good equipment could be had,quite easily.Getting those priceless LP's would be alot harder! Sorry for my rant! |
Raul, while everybody appreciates your enthusiasm, it sure does seem to be difficult to get you to benefit from more knowledgeable members. You posted that only the manufacturers could answer the OP. I suggest you do call or write to Tri Mai. Mr. Triplanar, as I'm sure you know. This gentleman is perhaps one of the nicest, most affable, most knowledgeable folks I know in the business. He could most certainly explain the differences that have lead to dramatic improvements to a tonearm you claim is no better now than 20 years ago. Will you believe him? Next, I suggest a phone call to Mr. George Merrill. I'm sure that name rings a bell? He would be happy to talk to you. There may not be another person on the planet who is more qualified to help you get the most from your vintage equipment. He can also explain why, and which components have come the farthest in the last thirty years. The average age of most of your system. I look forward to hearing from you after the conversations! Z. |
Dear Halcro: +++++ " ...it's not telling us anything! " +++++ well, IMHO I think that today are " different " TT/tonearm/cartridge gear but unfortunately those "different " does not give us a bettter quality performance. Seriously, I would like to travel to your lovely country but I can't do it. The Agoner' quote: maybe has several interpretations, what I understand is that the know-how and audio/music experiences can/could be more important that buy high price ( new kid on the block ) audio items with out that know-how. Of course that if you have an in deep know-how and you are wealthy then things could happen more easy and faster ( I'm talking about achieving audio system stellar performance. ) Dear Halcro, Sirspeedy put that subject in the right perspective. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Raul, Thank you for pointing out the derivations of certain pivoted arms. As there are basically 2 commercially successful methods to achieve the pivoted arm principle (unipivot and double gimbel bearings...the Schroeder double magnet bearing is still essentially a unipivot), and as there are hundreds of different models and/or manufacterers over the last 30 years alone, it seems reasonable that they are all variations on a theme. It's like saying all turntables are derived from the belt-driven platter, the direct-drive platter or the idler-wheel drive. In other words...it's not telling us anything! OK Raul, I have a 30 year old Technics 1200 with Nagaoka MP11 MM cartridge and you would be amazed at how it sounds. It will easily equal the sound of all the new high priced turntables/arms/cartridges available today. Come to my place and hear....you will be surprised....you can try it? And please stop using that ' Agoner' quote??......it has no meaning in either English OR Spanish! |
Dear Halcro: Thank you to give all of us the opportunity to talk and understand about: +++++ " Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TTÂ’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, IÂ’m not saying that some cartridges designs donÂ’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today KoetsuÂ’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones donÂ’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them " +++++ this is what I posted in other thread along with this: +++++ " Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment " +++++, and I can add: cables. I'm still supporting those statements. Now, you states: +++++ " In my experience, the greatest advances in analogue playback have occurred in just the last 10 years with arms, cartridges and turntables! " +++++, that is totally contrary to my statements ( and there is nothing wrong with that. ). We can take a look to the " today " analog gear design against some " old " designs, examples: Triplanar design ( I already heard some samples of this tonearm even in my own system. ), IMHO this " today " design is a very old one that over the last years had/has some mods but the main design does not change. SME, this " today " ( that I own ) very good design is a real " old " one. Do you know how much years has it? Morch, this " today " ( that I own ) design " comes from an " old " Japanese Highphonic tonearm design. Graham. this " today " very good tonearm comes from the Japanese Audiocraft " old " design. Btw, if I can remember the Phantom use a magnetic design for the antiskating, well: do you know that the Lustre GST-801 ( that I own ) not only has a magnetic antiskating but a magnetic VTF too? and the Lustre is a 30+ tonearm design!!!!! VPI, comes from SAEC. Brickmann, comes from the " old " Swiss Breuer. and I can go on an on!!!!!!!! IMHO only the Schroeder is a real new ( very good and clever bearing design ) tonearm design, oh yes the WT too. New build materials in the " today " tonearms?, well IMHO many " old " tonearm designs were the ones that start with " new " materials that many of " today " ones are using it: ceramic? SAEC, Titanium?, Technics, Boron/Titanium? Technics, carbon fibre? MS, wood? Grace, etc, etc. Do you know that no one ( other than Schroeder ) of today tonearms can even the Technics EPA-100MK2 so low bearing friction?, far from there and perhaps this is ( overall ) the tonearm to beat for any " today " tonearms. Do you know all the technology design ( at every design level ) that this Technics use?: bearing, build material, damping, etc, etc, IMHO no one " today " tonearm is near it and this Technics is a stellar performer. BTW, do you already try/tested it with your today audio system?, please do it. +++++ " To compound the problems I have with you, all your arms appear to have readily interchangeable headshells which presumably have plug-in electrical contacts? " +++++ well the Graham and Morch comes with the same " problem " design. Btw, there is no perfect audio item ( including tonearms ) and you have to choose your own trade-offs, almost always!!! +++++ " Your most 'modern' turntable appears to be the Acoustic Solid from Germany. I have heard their Mambo and I'm sorry to tell you that this is not comparable to the Raven AC, Continuum Caliburn or Criterion nor the Walker Procsenium or Rockport Sirius. " +++++ I totally agree with you if you compare the Acoustic Signature/Acoustic Solid with out any kind of isolation on it. I already posted somewhere that the Acoustic Signature comes with a heavy/terrible isolation problems but if you make your part on this audio game and find how isolate it then the AS is a top performer and a very clever ( bearing and power supply ) design. I already heard ( in very good audio systems ) all the TTs you named but the Continuum, are very good ones and perhaps the best today examples but the " old " ones like Micro Seiki 5000/8000 or the SZ-1TVS+SZ-1M ( this one is a statement of TT by any today standard ), Nakamichi TX-1000 ( its center record computer technology is very far from any today TTs, well no one of today TT builders care about!!!!!!! This TX-1000 TT technology is UNIQUE all over the analog gear world!!!!!!!! ), do you already try it with your today audio system? or the Micro Seikis? well I did, Technics SP-10MK2 and MK3 ( I own it ), Final Paruthenon?, do you know it? a 1984 design: stellar performer!!!! , Yamaha GT-200X, Denon DP-100, etc, etc All these " old " designs compete and could beat many of the today ones including yours. Cartridges?, well other of what you can read here: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&read&3&4& I can tell you that many " old " MC cartridges not only even the best today cartridges but some can/could beat them. Examples: Goldbug MS Brier, Victor MC L-1000, Sao Win SMC 10, Audio technica AT1000, FR MC-702, Ortofon MC 2000, etc, etc. How many of these cartridges do you already heard in your today system? how many of the ones that I named in the MM thread? Btw, the last one today cartridge that I tested in my system was the Air Tight PC-1. +++++ " Your claim that the old technology of arms is as good as, if not better than the new, is demonstrably false just as your beliefs that the older cartridges (both MM and MC)are legitimately comparable to the newer LOMCs. " +++++ I don't think so because I can prove it, what I think ( IMHO ) is that you can't prove what you posted!!!!! +++++ " seems to me to indicate that the sound you are able to extract from the vinyl is decidedly second rate. " +++++ well you can't prove this either but if you take that long flight to America and hear it you will be just shocked!! and could have a very nice " new " music/sound experience. Sirspeedy posted: +++++ " One just has to look at the better(quite a few)cartridges,and with a good table(there are many),and tonearm(quite a few "decent" choices,too)the serious vinyl hobbyist/collector can have a field-day at his/her local used record store!!! Too much fun for one lifetime!!! " +++++ and I agree with him but that statement does not means that the quality sound reproduction is better than with those " very old " analog designs ( tonearms/cartridges/TTs ). Dear Halcro, like some Agoner told me: " High end is who you are, not what you buy ". Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
BTW,one doesn't have to own the absolute "latest/best measuring/highest tech level" stuff to get "fabulous" sound! I've heard many(domestic settings)systems that had somewhat retro equipment which just "HAD IT",in a very musical way!!The owner/hobbyists knew what they wanted to accomplish,and modded,and voiced these systems to a stunning level of enjoyment.There are MANY systems of this nature that actually embarrass some of the newer,highly regarded set-ups being marketed today. Of course with a good amount of understanding,and alot of cash you will still do extremely well with todays TOP stuff,but it does not negate the legitimacy of MANY classic designs.....Think "Marantz 10B",as an example. Also,if one reads Raul's equip listing,and his steps to eek out the best from his set-up,I'd bet it is darn good sounding!..Just some thoughts. Best |
Raul, There will be no miscommunication once you cough up this list! Have you finished the reading I assigned yet? Did you learn anything? Do you have any questions, or do you remain the only one with ALL the answers? How did any of us ever get along without you and your vast experience with ancient hi-fi? Halcro, you give Acoustic Solid FAR too much credit! I'll put a Scout(!) up against their top piece. The US importer provides speaker cable margin on this line. At retail. Which is so unrealistic, words fail me as to how I might draw a comparison. Fishing line, tied in a KNOT for a belt! NO, that can't be audible! Raul, How is that list coming, buddy? Z. |
I CAN agree with Halcro,in that IMO the last few years has brought a "major" improvement in vinyl reproduction!!! One just has to look at the better(quite a few)cartridges,and with a good table(there are many),and tonearm(quite a few "decent" choices,too)the serious vinyl hobbyist/collector can have a field-day at his/her local used record store!!! Too much fun for one lifetime!!! |
Downunder, I was quoting you re the walker kills the Phantom. Or did u mean the air tangent?? Sorry I did not make myself clear, I was referring to Walker beating the Air Tanget as I had them at the same time. I also had the Versa Dynamics and the older Graham 2.2 mounted on a Basis Debut Gold MK 5. What does the air tight bring to the sonic table that beats your Koetsu Jade's?? The Air Tight is faster, much lower distortion, higher resolution and detail, tracks better and images better. Another benefit in my system is the output voltage. Koetsu Platinum is .2, Air Tight is .6. My phono (Aesthetix) is all tube, so this higher voltage (by default :^), lowers the noise floor, giving the first stage input tubes a lot more signal to work with. |
Raul, sorry my poetic license for the use of "crappy" However You quoted " I change six long tonearms for the short ones because I can't find a real/true quality sound improvement in the long ones" Therefore you must have the same tonearm's in 12 and 9 inch and as you have indicated the 12 inch versions offer no sound improvements over the 9 inch version. Please tell us what six 12 inch arms in your opinion offer no performance upgrade to their 9 inch versions. I am certainly interested and I am sure a lot of other people are too, so we don't potentially waste our money upgrading to the 12 inch versions :-) cheers Shane |
Raul, whilst we all appreciate the experiences and comparisons that you bring to this forum, I think that Zieman has a point. Your claim that the old technology of arms is as good as, if not better than the new, is demonstrably false just as your beliefs that the older cartridges (both MM and MC)are legitimately comparable to the newer LOMCs. In my experience, the greatest advances in analogue playback have occurred in just the last 10 years with arms, cartridges and turntables! Your most 'modern' turntable appears to be the Acoustic Solid from Germany. I have heard their Mambo and I'm sorry to tell you that this is not comparable to the Raven AC, Continuum Caliburn or Criterion nor the Walker Procsenium or Rockport Sirius. The arm I have discovered since mounting the Continuum Copperhead, is just as important as the table and the differences can be quite stunning. Once again all your arms cannot bear comparison to the Copperhead, Cobra, Phantom, Triplanar et al. For you to claim that you have heard all these tables and arms and believe your tables and arms are just as good, means ALL of us can happily make those SAME claims about all OUR equipment as well. It doesn't unfortunately, make it so. To compound the problems I have with you, all your arms appear to have readily interchangeable headshells which presumably have plug-in electrical contacts? For decades, most reviewers and arm-designers have eschewed removable headshells because of the sonic degradation involved and extra electrical contact points. The sum total of your 'less than SOTA' turntables with your dubious arms with removeable headshells, seems to me to indicate that the sound you are able to extract from the vinyl is decidedly second rate. The differences you will still hear between cartridges, but the validity of your opinion is severely compromised by the real lack of nuance and detail that you are missing. Now it is absolutely fine for you to be happy with your set-up and system.....but when you progress to making absolute decrees on the universal quality of arms and cartridges to readers who have little experience,it can be dangerous and misleading. |
Dear Downunder: IMHO I think that looks like a misunderstood from your part. In any of my posts I told that the 12" tonearm are not good tonearms or that are crappy ones, I don't know from where you have that on your mind!!!!!, this is like if I tell you that your CJ preamp is a crappy preamp!!!. Downunder till today I never bought/own/owned any " crappy tonearm ", now you are clear of them. Maybe I have to add some explanation on why I'm using the 9" tonearms: after that its performance is a great one ( with no single advantage from the 12" ones. ) the overhang on all those tonearms that I own ( the short ones ) is exactly the same and this fact make me easy the interchange of cartridges between them and this single fact is of paramount and critical importance to achieve the best from any phono cartridge. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Raul, We are waiting for this list of "crappy" 12s. Although I doubt there is much risk of any of us picking up any of these crappy/vintage/obsolete throwaways, you owe us an answer. I see looking at your system pics a very real reason you may be having so much trouble making accurate comparisons that might lead to actually improving your system. Any first-year engineering student would understand the negative effects of having more than one tonearm mounted. You essentially have four antennae picking up room energy, at four different freqs and feeding all these resonant freqs into your phono stage. In the form of distortion! Take all that junk off and have a listen. You can thank me in the morning! Z. |
I did not read what Valin wrote, but if he likes the TW Acustik more than the Walker, that will be good for TW's sales. As for your comment that the Walker arm kills the Phantom, I don't know if that is true and probably no way to test. The Walker arm only works on a Walker turntable and the Walker table will not accommodate a Phantom :^). Or is Valin due to give back or sell his permanent loan and he is looking for another :-) Unknown, I am not close to Valin. It's not by choice, I just don't know him well enough to have "inside" knowledge. When I spoke to the owner of TW Acustik at the show, he had several tonearms mounted, including a Phantom, a Tri-Planar and something else (I don't remember). I ask what he liked best and he said "The Phantom, with Air Tight PC-1" I certainly agree with him on the Air Tight PC-1, I have two of them now and no Koetsu. If you know how crazy I was about Koetsu you know how big a change that was. I also gave the PC-1 product of the year award at PFO where I review. I did not get these as "samples" or reviewer freebees :^). I bought them at a reduced price, but no better than clever audiophiles and dealers get. |
Albert Interesting that Valin in TAS liked the TW Acustik / phantom as much or better than his reference - the fully decked out Walker. Is the TW table that much better than the walker table? - given that the walker arm kills the Phantom. Or is Valin due to give back or sell his permanent loan and he is looking for another :-) |
Dear Albert: In some ways we are talking and agree on the main subjects. I only want to be precise that I'm not against the 12" tonearm ( I still have it and like it ), I'm only saying that it is not better than a 9-10" one only because is longer. Btw, nice to see that you have the pivoted SME one. Design, execution and well matched cartridge ( obviously, like you posted : set up. ) is the " name of the game " in any tonearm. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
I have a Walker Proscenium Black Diamond with linear tracking tonearm and a Technics SP-10 with SME 312S ((Magnesium) conventional pivot tone arm. I absolutely love both of these arms! So I defend the guys at Hi Fi+ for their enthusiasm about 12 inch arms. The linear track arm is always perfect, zero error. The difference between arms is more than tracking. I also owned the Air Tangent 10B and it was terrible. It's execution was excellent, appeared to be as high quality as the Walker, but wouldn't beat a 9" Graham. The Walker KILLS it ! Execution is paramount, not to mention the care of set up. The design is critical, but execution can over ride a (potentially) superior technology. |
Raul, Even after Downunder explains HIS question to you SLOWLY, why do you refuse to stay on topic? Do you still prefer drum brakes and carburetors as well? Ignoring, or not having a basic grasp of the laws of physics won't make them go away. Perhaps having a garage sale and purchasing something from THIS CENTURY might change your mind. If you have some romantic attachment to obsolete/vintage gear, that is cool. And your perogative. I have some myself, I keep it to remind myself of times when I did not know any better and couldn't afford anything better. You may have your own reasons for clinging to the past. You do however, look really ridiculous trying to convince the OP that it is HE and not YOU who does not understand HIS(!) question, or any of the answers. There are many elementary books and classes to help you with the basic science that is being discussed here. Keeping abreast of current materials research and manufacturing tecniques may prove more difficult. There is however, no voodoo or magic involved in answering the OP. Please read, SLOWLY, and perhaps several times, the article by MR. SME, a gentleman who has forgotten more than you or I will EVER know about vinyl playback that discusses material relevant to the focus of this forum question. This may take you several days to digest, if you have trouble with any of the big words, I'm sure there are many members willing to help you. Myself included. Good reading! Z. |
Much earlier in this thread, I said the same thing Raul just stated -- namely that the tracking error reduction from a 9 to a 12 inch arm will be sonically insignificant compared to other factors. I think it's also important to remember that the original reason for having 12" arms was for playing broadcast 'transcriptions' which if I remember correctly were 16" in diameter -- it had nothing to do with reducing tracking error. |
Dear Downunder: Well, it seems that the only one that changed from 12" to 9" was me and let me tell you that I change six long tonearms for the short ones because I can't find a real/true quality sound improvement in the long ones, maybe my music/sound appreciation and music/sound priorities are totally different from yours, that's all. +++++ " Me I have had two 12 inch arms for a few years now so I can appreciate the better tracking at the end of a record compared to my 9inch naim ARO arm.... "+++++ IMHO this kind of performance/behavior is almost totally dependent on the tonearm/cartridge combination and not because one tonearm is longer than the other one. Here we have to remember that the Aro is a unipivot design that are not the best trackers at inner record tracks. For you can get to your conclusion you need a 9" Aro against a 12" Aro and even here the result is dependent with the cartridge match with either tonearm model. I had that experience with the Audiocraft AC-3300/4400 and the Morch DP-6 where the only variable were the arm wands size and there is no differences that I can say: " it is because the arm wand size ". As I already posted in a well tonearm design and well tonearm execution ( build ) the arm wand size can't make " the differences " for the better in a 12" against a 9-10" one, there are other factors that are more important and critical for the quality sound performance and I'm not saying that the size is not important it is but not at the level you or other reports about but because of its disadvantages against it " theoretical " advantage. It is the same for ( IMHO ) the false assumption about the " perfect/mimic " cero tracking error advantage of the linear tracking tonearms, there are a lot of other factors that have a huge influence in the whole tonearm performance. Of course that some people like the linear tracking or long pivot tonearms but that does not means that are better ones and for the reviewers that support those tonearms designs we have to think/take in count that they have/must support to their advertisers and to the today products: specially the " new kid in the block ", very difficult to really trust on them: they are part of the audio business, I can and understand that. IMHO you can/could obtain almost perfect/stellar/excelent quality sound reproduction from either tonearm design: long or short one, obviously with the right cartridge in either tonearm design and I can tell you more: either of these ( well cartridge matched ) pivoted tonearms outperforms ( overall ) a well matched linear tracking one. Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
I think the discussions and debate's that are ongoing is great. My original point of the post was really to see if any folks had changed from a 9 inch arm to a 12 inch arm and what were the results in your system. Clearly Zieman has seen positive results in changing to a 12 inch arm and that mirror's RG's review in hifi+. Me I have had two 12 inch arms for a few years now so I can appreciate the better tracking at the end of a record compared to my 9inch naim ARO arm on my LP12. |
