Dear @noble100 : HT and stero MUSIC reproduction room/systems needs are different.
Maybe that's why you are the only audiophile I know that can't be aware of the difference using a high-pass filter in the stereo music main speakers and with out that filter even the wider frequency range in those bass drivers. Not only that but you said you preffers with out the high-pass filter because better bass quality performance.
Seems to me that or you are overall bass " oriented/biased " or for a stereo MUSIC your room/system bass has poor quality levels. Something is not " functioning " for a stereo MUSIC/sound listening experiences because the differences with that wider bass range in the main speakers drivers are not " subtle ". Something is wrong or was wrong when you tested about, it's impossible not to be aware of those " huge " differences for the better using the filter.
I can't be sure what is happening down there other what you posted in this thread.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @phusis : In the overall subs subject problem with some people as atmasphere is just igonrance levels/low knowledge level even this person has no subs in his system, go figure.
As you and me Noble 100 confirms that we can have really good bass managment with two true subs. Noble likes 4 because he used as HT too.
As you I only need one seat position to listen MUSIC and the only seat position is in front-middle of the main speakers because is where belongs the mid/high frequency ranges that only has one and only position to enjoy it.
At least we have first hand experiences that attest our coincident statements .
The other issue in almost all the bass threads in this forum is that almost no one cares about quality of that low bass ( only cares to room evenly bass reproduction. ) and many just do not care about the critical importance of the bass below 20hz but as you said: " that's just me ".
R. |
atmasphere: Certainly you need to learn a little on the whole bass management subject.
Certainly is not false my statement that was confirmed by the Harman white papers in his great bass management scientific abstract and I said abstract because they do not try to sell us nothing but only sharing critical information. From those WP:
" Four subwoofer at the wall midpoints (configuration 11) was the best practical configuration in terms of MSV. Two subwoofers at opposing wall midpoints (configuration 6) was nearly as good and also offered stronger low-frequency support. Configurations with more than four subwoofers were not found to be advantageous, especially when cost is factored in. These results appear to be generalizable to reasonably dimensioned rectangular spaces [19] . ""
Things are that I have no single problem in my system with two true self powered subs at one seat position.
R.
from those WP:
""" However, through the use of multiple subwoofers the seat-to-seat variation in the frequency response can be reduced significantly, allowing subsequent equalization to be more effective. Three methods to reduce seat-to-seat variation are described, including a novel approach based on simple signal processing. The desired result in each case is to allow the system to be equalized over a seating area rather than just one seat. Results are shown for several listening rooms. """
In my case I only need one seat and I’m " in ".
and remember: Why the fascination with subwoofers? when you are not using it yet but like to post and you have the rigth to do it.
I can't go on due that you have some " lawyers " here that will come to .............? ? |
Dear @noble100 : Yes, with two true self powered subs for one seat position. We don't need more for that target. The Harman white papers confirm it.
I think that even that we agree in some bass management subjects the reality is that we can't agree and not because " we can't " as is but because looking your streamlinen system your targets and mines are totally different.
I don't use my system for HT and two channels listening MUSIC. My system was and is developed exclusively for listen two channels MUSIC, nothing more. Music coming from digital and analog alternatives.
As I told you my main target is to stay " nearer/truer " to the recording and to achieve that target I need a very high resolution room/system that means very high quality performance of any single link in the overall audio system chain with true accuracy and the lowest any kind of distortions I can achieve.
Obviously that to achieve all these we have to take care for the minimum details where in HT no body cares and even in two channels system some audiophiles not cares either.
I gave that little explanation due that you said that using the high-pass filter you was not aware of differences in the quality level performance in the mid/high frequency ranges in your system.
After looking your system I understand now why you been not aware about: your system has not the resolution need it for even that very wide frequency bass range in the Magnepans.
As a fact you are not trying to put all kind of distortions at its minimum you can and that's why you gave me an answer that THD in the quasi-subs you own was not so important when in reality is way important with true self powered subs in a only two channels system. Everything is important and with high priorities in a two channels room/system when we want to stay not so far aways of live MUSIC as normally we are.
Mi reference to achieve my target is live MUSIC seated at nearfield position ( 2-3m. ) that's where the recording microphones are positioned.
For me is really important and was one of the reasons I choosed my servo controled Velodyne's that check every second 16K times the woofer excursions to mantain at lower than 0.5% the THD. Other than Velodyne I don't know other true subs where the manufacturer gives the THD in its products.
I think I already mentioned that the JL very well regarded subs measured through Stereophile review around 6% on THD other subs reknowed subs are worst that that and certainly far away from that Velodyne figure.
I totally understand your fascination for your 4 quasi-subs bass array because for that price is almost imposible to achieve what you like in your system.
The manufacturer design must had to make " serious " compromises to stay at that so low price for the complete bass 4 array.
Anyway, at the end you have what you and me were looking for and if both of us achieved our targets then this is the more important fact.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
|
Dear @noble100 : I did not knew which is the crossover frequencies in your 2.7qr and now I find out:
Low-Pass 12dB/octave @ 650Hz Band-Pass 6dB/octave @ 500Hz-950Hz
those " numbers " makes me to tell you it's almost and " emergency " and your speakers are " shouting " for that high-pass filter ! ! Rigth now you have good bass and you can have an exceptional mid/high ranges in your system adding that high-pass filter. IMHO it's a must that you do it because the IMD distortion levels is to high and in a very wide range up to over 900hz. It's a serious compromise to leave it that way. A compromise is that you can have a better quality " equilibrum " with your bass range if you can achieve better quality levels in the mid/high frequency ranges. As I said before is up to each one of us. Btw: you said that the CD's and other digital sources you own/use does not goes below 20hz. Maybe you are rigth but always exist a dude because your system does not have the ability to shows you if in reality goes only to 20hz or below it. R. |
Dear @noble100 : """ All DBA systems will provide accurate, detailed, smooth and natural bass that has an effortless quality to it. """
as can do it non DBA subs system. As you said maybe a different way " to see things " but DBA is not the only or best option. Clearly is for you and other gentlemans but exist other very good alternatives to it.
Not only you but other audiophiles are running their passive main speakers in its full range way and I can’t understand yet why what @phusis and before him me posted here and in other related subs threads ( at least me. ) the main critical advantage when any one integrates two or more subs to his system using a high-pass filter that permits to put at minimum the main speakers IMD kind of distortions.
The rewards doing that with passive speakers is not some thing tiny, no it’s more significant perhaps that to have those additional low bass octaves. Of course that we can understand it only when we have that experience.
I posted in that linked thread that my main discovery when I integrated my subs to my system ( where my main speakers goes down to 16hz. ) was the overall " impact " that was developed by lowering the main speakers IMD kind of distortions. Yes I know your targets are different from pussin or mines but you must try it in some future time and if you test it then the XO point can be at around 80hz and subs wired in true stereo fashion.
I think that we can’t diminsh the IMD developed distortions by the main speakers no matters what if I was you at least I will try and if you don’t like it then always come back at the original status.
Normally the owners of planar type speakers are " against " to run the main speakers as a " satellite " one that is the " rigth " way to go ( for me. ) because that high-pass filter makes a paramount difference.
Yes, my high-pass filter is inside my 20.6s amplifiers where I don’t need to use any kind of external active/passive XO due that my amps are coupled by small caps.
Anyway is up to each one of us, only an opinion that can improve our daily MUSIC pleasure.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @phusis : I concur with what you posted because those were and are my first hand experiences in my room/sysrtem for several years now. Through those experiences I decided to in 2005 to post this thread ( I already postyed here but you don't read it, here again. ) that goes/coincide with your takes in the overall bass subject:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058
Btw, the planar speakers develops too Inter Modulation Distortions and are benefitiated by those subs and the high-pass filter. No matters what. The planar owners must test it before post it does not works because this is the idea they have. I posted the link og those Apogee The grand speakers that says it works and I have first hand experiences with the top of the line big and great sounding Soundlabs with and with out that high-pass XO and difference is for the better through that XO. But is up to flat speakers owners. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @atmasphere : All cartridges has its own tracking abilities determined not only for its compliance level but the tip mass, cartridge weigth and ceratinly how good is matched with its couple tonearm ( resonance frequency in between. ) but today tonearm that are well damped and even not very good damped but with good bearing design does a good work about.
Of course that the TT platfform has something to says: if good damped or not so good, speakers sound vibrations and overall room vibrations. Analog rig is very complex to achieve a " perfect " job.
Ok, for my part is all on these regards because the main bass thread subject is different.
R. |
Dear @atmasphere : What I really mean was not a LP limitation perse but an analog rig limitation because cartridges just can't track with applomb very low bass grooves.
Telarc 1812 is a good example where I own over 120+ cartridges and only a few can track those cannon shots with clean and pristine true applomb.
Between other things cartridge self abilities is always a limitation and not only at very low bass.
"""
For this reason, the recording engineer has a phase inversion switch on every channel of his mixer but he may not have thought to use them. """
So, recording engineers do not really care about and even to check the microphones phase in between.
Thank's for your explanation, makes sense.
R.
|
Dear @noble100 : As you I continue in the quest and each " day " nearer to.
Now and for the low bass stereo or mono. How was recorded stereo or mono?:
after some days of hard work and a lot learning sessions listening to CDs containing true low bass, at least to 16hz and even lower that that, as these CDs recorded in different times from early 80’s to today days. I listen it mainly Motion Picture Original Soundtracks ( lovely !. ):
Telarc 1812, Casper, Black Hawk Down, Vangelis 1492, M:1-2 ( Mission Imposible. ), Gladiator ( second recording where the titles does not appeared in the Picture, was part of the Zimmer overall takes before decided which use it for. ), Glory, The Thin Red Line, Blade Runner ( first picture. Vangelis. ), The day After Tomorrow, Interstellar and Alita.
The low bass comes recorded in MONO as you posted in the other thread but now I’m totally sure about.
Even that still is one point that I would like to have clear and is if the low bass information is recorded mono from 50hz or 40hz or 30 hz down these frequencies. I ask my self which is the bass frequency range recorded in MONO and from where starts to recorded Stereo ?. I don’t know, yet.
I listening to those CDs first whith all my system playing in stereo and mono fashion, then single channel in stereo and mono fashion, after those I started to listen only to the information coming from the subs and when I try to find out that bass frequency range recorded ( from-to. ) is impossible to find out by listening it because the very low bass dominates the subs response and ( at least me. ) can’t distingish any thing about.
Anyway, my test experiences were to confirm or not what you posted and you are rigth: MONO is the way is recorded and those CDs producers/engineers are loosing out on the opportunity to make the CD recording with the bass information that the microphones pick up at the recording sessions.
Seems to me that because the recording of LP’s during the cutting proccess the bass information must goes in MONO due to the analog/LP limitations the producers/engeneers accustom to never think to make CD recordings taking advantage of the digital alternative that has no limitations about ! ! ? ? ? ? Maybe exist something in those very low bass information that the microphones pick-up that could or can makes useles doing it in Stereo fashion, who knows?
Well I hope that some one there can do it in the near future or at least try it/test it and decide about.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
|
Dear @noble100 : The Sounddoctor is a point of view as can be yours, Audiokinesis or any one else and there is no reason that we can read it and the ones with more knowledge levels in the bass regards will took what is " rigth " and diminish what's wrong.
From some time now, I try to read the more I can on that regards.
When I started I did it alone with out knowing Harman or Geddes papers I just trust is what my nearfield live music experiences told me. Yes I took more time to achieve that " there " mentioned before that's what must be an audiophile target.
I have two true subs in a room with out bass traps and no equalization of any kind and I'm lucky enough to stay " there ". You are closer to that " there " so go for it, makes a difference and you will know when you experienced in your room/system.
Btw, I'm in this thread and in the other bass thread because I'm learning from almost every one.
I think that other than the Harman white papers no one is owner of the " bass Bible ".
I know that reading " here and there " and following making some additional tests or making very little position changes or the like we can learn and perhaps a new kind of improvement. Well this is the way I think and the way I'm moving in my room/system, overall not only in the bass management.
My main target is to stay nearer to the recording.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @rodman99999 : I own both Virgil Fox LP volume's ( if I remember: white vinyl. I don't listen it for several years now. ) and just great if you have the system that can showed.
One recording with true subterrean bass range is the Dorian CD with the transcription scores of Pictures at an Exibition by Jean Guilllou. Always not only very good score quality performance but a true test for any system especially in the bass range.
I own too an LP ( I can't remember the label. ) with the Mormom Tabernacle Choir that I remember wa really good recording.
As a fact and as I posted there are " thousands " of recordings with true low bass range and with very good overall quality performance.
Other labels that comes to my mind is Wilson Audio, Athena, Denon, Delos, Chalfont that along Cristal Clear several more are a must to listen it.
Is just grandioso/magnificent that we truly can appreciated in all its grandiosity all those " historic "recordings. Good that some of us can do it.
R.
|
Dear @noble100 : """
I've learned that realistic reproduction of the majority of the bottom octave (16Hz–32Hz) doesn't require large woofers in large enclosures, 4 subs with 10" woofers """ well with the ones design you owns you phisically can't achieve that octave ( 16hz-32hz. ) but from 20hz up. A small driver as 10" with that " motor " can't do it at over 110 SPL and with low THD. Yes maybe some one could design a true sub with 10" woofers but this is other subject, yours can't do it. """
I'm not a Bass-Head but I admit ..... "", me neither. "" But I also believe in setting the crossover frequency as low as possible so the subs only engage when required for accuracy and not for an artificial general system bass boost. """ well in my case as low as 78hz. "" I've also discovered that bass quality is vastly more important than bass quantity. "" Always in agreement with but my main discovering using true self powered subs was the IMPACT that MUSIC we are listening makes when the IMD distortion kind goes way lower in the main speakers: mids/high ranges really shines with. As a very important side benefit is the quality level we accomplish in the overall system bass management. We have to remember that the MUSIC foundation and MUSIC frame belongs/lives in the bass frequency range and its quality levels. Not for you but for other gentlemans this link could help to understand better the overall bass management:
http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @audiokinesis : """ You can get good bass in one sweet spot with two equalized subs..."""
and that’s the target of almost any audiophile at his room/system. Makes no sense to me to have several bass seat positions when the mids/hig frequency range has only one seat position and no one audiophile listen only bass range.
I know is your business but not the one for a home audio system audiophiles.
In my case at my place in my room and with my system I don’t need but 2 subs but as you posted: " you can get good bass in one sweet spot with two equalized subs "", that in my case are not equalized at all.
Now I remember what you posted that +,- 3dbs at 100 and 20hz that I read at your site. Thank's.
R. |
Dear @audiokinesis : "" I didn’t design the Swarm to go below 20 Hz """
of course you did not and certainly not at your market price. I’m not with an attitude to make a critic or something against your product what I’m doing is to post some facts for the people really know where are " seated ".
As you I have more than 25 years with the " fascination " subs ideas because is a true fascination when you are " there ". I’m a simple music lover and audiophile.
The people that own your product could think they are " there " but in reality they are not yet.
The true and complete room/system bass management premise is that the audio system can handled bass frequencies below 20hz at real/live event SPL with lower THD we can achieve in our room/system ( other day we can talk about the importance of that THD. ) and to accomplish that we need self powered true subwoofers and we not necessarily need 4 subs we can do it with two true subs. The Harman white papers proves that.
Of course that if we are not satisfied with those two true subs in our room/system then we can go for the 4 solution.
My target is to have the best solution ( rigth now with two true subs. ) at one and only one seat position where the mids and higs are spot on.
There are alot of very valuable music information below 20hz in hundred/thousands of recordings and we can enjoy it in all its splendor if we have the system for reproduce it.
The differences between a quasi-bass management against a true bass management is not little or tiny but higher that what any one of us can imagine. We have to experienced to understand it.
Now all those gentlemans that already has the four not true subs only have to change it for true subs where maybe they will not needs 4 but only 2 but this depends of the room/system, which true subs were choosed and eacvh one of us targets.
I understand the " fascination " that have your customers that are living with and they already think they discovery the bass " panacea " when it’s not that way. They are close to that panacea but needs to " work " to achieve it.
So, my posts were not a true critic or something against to, not at all. Only facts.
Btw, I take a look in your site and I don’t find out which are the 3 +,- db points in those 10" units. Could you share it?. Appreciated.
Only for your records: I bougth my ADS L2030 ( that was not and stritly massive market product because was not designed for consummer market. ) many many years ago and when I was absolutely ig norant about bass management and its importance and with out knew nothing about the Harman papers. I bougth it in Laredo,Tx. because the vendor convince me about and because in those old times we can seen ADS advertasing in all audio magazynes as High Fidelity, Stereo Review or Audio.
Well these sealed/acoustic suspension ADS design between other drivers has two 14" woofers and line source for the mids/higs and its bass specs at 3 +,- db are: 22hz and 18hz at 5+,- db an 16hz +,- 4 db bi-amp fashion using its dedicated active C2000 crossover that I owned and I think still own.
Well, ADS was choosed ( with out knowing for my self any information about this.) by Telarc for monitoring all the Telarc recordings and the first recordings Telarc used ADS speakers designed exclusively for them and powered by Threshold. Latter on Telarc ask to ADS for a better full rage professional monitor and was then when ADS designed the L2030 that was runned in bi-amp fashion with the C2000 and Threshold electronics. The man behind the desin of ADS L2030 speakers was Mr.Kelly whom rigth after this his last ADS speaker design ( he was the engenner in chief in ADS. ) founded the very well regarded Aerial Acoustic that between other things has true subs in its catalog line.
Well, even all those at some time of my audio life all was not enough for me and I started with subs till today where my self heavy up-graded L2030 works as satellite speakers in my room/system.
I post this history because no matters how low the speakers goes if are passive design always will be a huge benefits integrating to those speakers with two true self powered subs.
The subs market development and growing is just starting because from a few years now audiophiles are starting to learn that true subs are not for HT but for a stereo system in our places. So the best on regards is forth coming and this is a very good news for we audiophiles and people like you that are manufacturers and good designers.
Good to know you and meet you here.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOPT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @atmasphere: The main thread subject is about bass management, so I will answer to you on the tigth regards for last time:
I'm not speculating nothing, I never do. I was very clear that we have ( is a must to. ) to have several experiences in different venues and with different kind of MUSIC in live events seated at near field position and it's from here from came my " speculations ". Rodman, bdp and noble explained very well.
Period about.
R. |
Dear @atmasphere : If the post is to me then I'm sorry but I don't get it. What do you try to say about what?
Maybe you are rigth in your posts but I don't know to what you are refering to.
R. |
So, in my point of view no one with those four subs array really can listen all the information that is recorded in those LP/CD's because are not tue subs, have low bass but not the very low bass like true subs and believe it or not it makes a difference.
R. |
When I said " several times " that was in one week all seven days because the speakers were sold.
R. |
Dear @pwhinson : """
point of 28hz. BUT of course there's just very little music down there....""" there are a lot of recordings with usable music information below 20hz and in both formats: LP and CD's. Some like these ( exist hundred of recordings, this is a enunciative list/examples. ): almost all Telarc recordings that not only goes below 20hz but as low as 6hz-8hz like in the 1812 overture, many Reference Recordings as Dafos and Berlioz Fantastique, obviously organ scores by Bach and other composers, Sheffiel Labs in its Firebird recording and in other recordings by them, M&K D2D has some recordings too, many rock music recordings, two notables here are The Wall, Dark Side of the Moon, last live Hotel California recording, hundred of Original Soundtrack Motion Picture in CD and some in LP too like: Glory, 300, Gladiator, Vangelis 1842, Blade Runner ( first picture ), the old " The Mission, et, etc. All those comes with information below 20hz and only if we own true subs that performs at least at 14hz-16hz can we " discover " the beauty of those recordings. A true subs is not the one that goes to 20hz but the one that gows way down below 20hz with low THD. To achive that subs needs at least 12" to move the air need to and very good design. Ideally subs need to have at least woofers from 14" and up. For a 10" woofer ( as the four subs array posted here. ) is almost imposible to handled frequencies below 20hz at over 100dbs ( SPL. ) and with low THD kind of distortion. Btw, one of the ribbon speakers I was refering in my other post to you was the Apogee that I live with for a couple of months at my place ( several years ago, when Apogee was the " week new speaker " name. ) with the Scintilla's powered by my Classé DR3-VDH that was one of the few amplifiers to handled the speaker so low impedance of 1 ohms or the like. Well I listen too several times through the audio distributor its top of the line that was a full range one with hybrid design due that came with a integrated subwoofer and I can tell you that contrary of what the Magnepan designer thinks performed excellent but I did not have the kind of money for buy it. I'm not talking of the Diva that was a great performer too but about The Grand, here you can read that exist only fortunated 25 owners all over the world:
http://www.reality-audio.com/the_grand.html
So don't be afraid to make the same and enjoy your system better than ever before or after ! ! ! ! Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @clio09 : Here a definition of the word artifact: """ ar·ti·fact/ˈärdəfakt/ noun- 1.an object made by a human being, typically an item of cultural or historical interest."gold and silver artifacts"
- 2.something observed in a scientific investigation or experiment that is not naturally present but occurs as a result of the preparative or investigative procedure."widespread tissue infection may be a technical artifact"
do you think that what you listen at near field position ( this near field position is very important for the subject we are analizing. ) in live music experiences in different venues and with different kind of MUSIC is an " artifact " ?
because at least for me is the very first time in my life that I read that word in reference to bass management and I think rodman9 too.
What noble100 posted: " when you hear it you will know , has nothing to do with artifact " but gin if that’s what you understand after those several nearfield live MUSIC experiences it’s ok with me but think a little about.
Anyway, can we go on on the bass management whole subject?
R.
|
Dear @rodman99999 : As @bdp24 you explained very well in what you posted before. That " artifact " certainly means nothing about what clio ask before.
Noble 100 posted something very good as an audiophile, something like: " when you hear it you will know. "
For that " will know " we must to have a near field position live music experiences in different venues ( several of those experiences. ) and with different kind of MUSIC.
Obviously that clio has not those experiences because if he has it then why to ask for or maybe he only want to confirm what he knew. ! ? ! ? but if he knew then what about that " artifact ".
Certainly: artifact is not the answer for me but for he is the rigth one, good even that maybe he had not those experiences. Who knows?
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @pwhinson : You have great passive speakers but even those could be improved making changes/up-grading in the bass range.
I would like to know which is the frequency range ( wide. ) handled by that quasi-ribbon bass " module ".
The specs says that from 25hz but does not mention a crossover frequency range and was not mentioned too if that 25hz is its +,- 3db point because if not then those 20.7 in reality perhaps goes not more than true flat 30hz.
Even that are quasi-ribbon design and normally low distortion levels exist true distortion levels in the kind of IMD developed by the bass driver that affects all the other non-true bass frequencies handled by that driver and this IMD generated could goes lower.
I know that the Magnepan designer does not like hybrids designs but other ribbons designs came with integrated subs and works really great.
From my point of view the noble 100 solutions are only an opinion and for me not the best option.
You said that maybe there is no much information below 25hz and I can tell you that even below 20 hz exist recorded information that's really valuable if youy room/system can shows it. The Swarms solution goes down to 20hz only: 18hz in ported/vented fashion or 22hz in sealed fashion. Is it a complete solution?, not for me: it's a quasi-solution.
The 20.7 crossover frequency is a must to have before you take any solution about . Subs are not only to have evenly low bass room/system response and goes deeper in the bass range but perhaps more important that those is to take that IMD distortion levels at minimum and with this your overall quality performance levels will go higher and you will enjoy those 20.7 better than ever before.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @noble100 : As the other gentleman I already posted you are loosing the main focus of bass management and you are doing because as lewinsky you are deffending some one that does not needs no one deffended him because no one is attacking him. Please read my last two posts. I only disclose facts, attacking no one in any case he is " attacking " him self for what he posted.
Last but not least: he has not first hand experiences with the subs overall subject in his own room/system.
In the other side I know very well whom is atmasphere and maybe better than you. Period.
R. |
Dear @lewinskih01 : but how can a universal amplifier design handled woofers ( passive speakers. ) in better way that the dedicated amplifier on a self powered subs that was designed in specific to fulfill the woofer needs?
makes you sense too?
I'm sorry but now your last posts to me make no sense at all. Please don't lost or move from the subs focus/specific subject. Forgeret about atmasphere but not because you want to " deffend " it ( that tehre is no reason to do it because you have to deffend him for nothing because no one is against him. ) lost the main subjects in this thread.
R. |
Dear @lewinskih01 : Good that make sense to you but I think that you are losting a main critical premise/parameter/characteristic on the subs overall subject, been 2 or 4, and is that separated subs ( 2-4 . ) is the way Harman speaks and I additional posted that a main target integrating ( at least. ) two subs is to put at minimum the IMD levels in the main speakers and both targets, the Harman and mine, can’t be accomplished in the way your " common sense " says to you.
Got it the huge differences? 2 or four subs permits to place it in the ideal position for the room/system and the same time that the IMD in the main speakers goes way lower than ever.
You can't or maybe is almost imposible try to find out/playing with several positions of two subs along the main speakers woofers . Normally the main speakers mid/high frequency range we already has/set up in the rigth main speakers position and we can't make many position changes to see if the bass improves and with out lowering the main speakers IMD ! !
In the other side and again makes no sense to me follow talking of more than one seat position to listen a stereo room/system because exist only one seat position that is " rigth/correct " to listen spot-on the mid and high frequency ranges.
Who cares other than one seat position to listen it if really does not exist. Makes sense to you? or is that you only listen to the bass range? ! ? ! ? ! !
My post is not against atmasphere and again I’m only disclosing facts that he showed don’t understand very well yet. I’m sure that when he already have his two subs his way of think could be a little different or maybe not ? !.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @bdp24 : You are rigth, live event experiences is a must to have and understand the home system bass management.
We need ( as you already have. ) first hand experiences trhough live event experiences seated at nearfield positions ( in different venues. ) to try to approach that live bass experienced.
We always will be not even near the live experiences but at the end the end our target must be to " approach " it.
Maybe the bassm management range in home systems is the most complicated target to achieve in the best way we can. Always will be trade-offs where we have to choose in between.
R. |
Dear @lewinskih01 : Only common sense. As I posted to you a few months ago that " seller "/atmasphere ( other time I will explain about that word " seller " because it’s no matters in this thread. ) said that his syatem goes down to 20hz no subs needs at all ( in that dicussion what we was discussing was that any passive speakers needs the integration of two self powered subs. ). His answer ( what he posted in that thread. ) only showed his ignorance of the whole subwoofer/bass management because even his field coil speakers and his system will be improved through the addition of two self powered subs not 4. Suddenly in this thread he gaves opinions as if he really been a true expert on the whole subject when even today he has no first hand expeiences in his room/system with subs, go figure. From where he already knows for sure what is posting. I’m not attacking him but only disclosing those facts. That he be a tube electronics manufacturer does not means knows everything about everything in audio because at least in the subs/bass management whole subject it’s ignorant as you, me and any one else are ignorants on several subjects/topics in audio. Look, I took around 1/one full year to integrate my subs in my room/system. A full year with " thousands " of tests till the subs were very good integrated to. More than 16 years ago I was thinking exactly as atmasphere that because my ADS L2030 speakers goes down to 18hz I just do not need subs in my system. I was totally wrong and was till I try and learned about subs that I added to my room/system and igf you look to my subwoofer thread that I posted in the analog forum its date is 2005, this is almost 14 years ago. The first discovery for me was not if my system bass was now " rigth " but the paramount differences ( for the better ) that makes that I put at minimum the IMD of my ADS L2030 and till today I still think is the main improvement followed by all what we subs owners already experienced with. No one can try to shows him self as a knowledge man just reading with out first hand experiences in his room/system. Btw, for me makes no sense to have 3 or 5 bass evenly in any room/system because for the mid and high frequency range exist only one " rigth " seat position no matters what. What we have to take care in deep is that at our room/listening seat position the bass, mid and high frequency ranges stays spot-on and that’s it. Two subs are enough to acomplish that. Harman tell us in precise and scientific way: 4 are the ideal but two are enough. Ideal for more seat positions but 90%/95% of the quality performance levels we can accomplish with two subs, yes it will takes a little more time to do it but we can do it. No, not one full year as I took where the main reason wa that I was totally ignorant on the whole bass regards and I did it alone with no advisors or the like and really was a huge learning lessons because I learned several other audio subjects other that the bass management. I know that you already has very good knowledge levels with the subs but for new comers about this link could help: https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/crawling-for-bass-subwoofer-placement Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. and he still posting that he needs only two subs because his speakers goes down 20hz ( solid hz. ): so what?, that confirms that he did not understand yet the overall subject in this thread and in the reality of any room/system. |
Dear @lewinskih01 : First than all you ask to a man that's a seller always. That person not even has in his system that four subs array but already making advise about and telling stupid things like that : " that's exactly how it works ", and this with out first hand experiences in his room/system. I don't care that he is a tube manufacturer because this at the end means almost nothing on what we are talking here. Audio kinesis is a seller too. Of the people that I know is not a seller and has first hand experiences with more than two subs is noble 100 and he has no interest to sell you or at any one nothing but only shares his first hand experiences. Btw, that tube manufacturer a few months ago posted in a hot discusion with me in the analog forum that he did not needs subs in his system because he has a very good system response down to 20hz with passive speakers. Obviously he has no idea about and even today he does not knows what's talking on this specific low bass/subs management and he will know when he finally has first hand experinences at his place, not before. Measurements always can help but if I was you or @mitch2 I must ask my self: with the two subs I have and at my seat position have I good low bass perception: tigth, full, no resonances, no overhang and pristine definition on that range and great midrange/highrange performance? if the answer is yes then we have to add nothing, two subs are more than enough and if yes then that means that the subs location is just rigth. Will improves in remarkable way adding two subs for a way better quality performance at my seat position?, maybe you even can't say was a true up-grade. With low bass your ears will know all about if you know how low bass performs in a live event seated at near field position. If we don't have this kind of experiences then we need ( a must to ) to live that experiences before any move /action regarding low bass/subs. It's up to each one of us. If you need more than a one listening seat position the a third or four subs could be better but even with 2 subs maybe you can ( ? ) do better moving a little your subs today locations, not drastically, only little movements with. Additional you always can use a parametric eq. for those subs and all these before adding two more subs. At the end the " move/action " we make belongs to each one of us. I like the Harman white papers because are an abstract work/research/modeling that try to sell nothing only sharing first rate information about. Here two links that can help all of us:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=48286
https://www.bringtheruff.com/using-multiple-subwoofers-to-smooth-bass-response/
@noble100 , I already " finished " my tests on that low bass stereo/mono recorded or not and the response on what we are listening. I will post about in the other thread following our dialogue. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @millercarbon and friends: You are rigth about that full range speakers down to 20hz not only are expensive but don't realy gives the " rigth " low bass not only to 20hz but almost does nothing for below 20hz frequencies that exist in the recordings. The first problem with those " 20hz " speakers is that are working through electronics ( amps ) that was not designed to fulfill the specific needs of those speaker woofers , there is no " total control " down there with universal amps and if those amps are tube electronics the problem is worst. Other problem is the frequency response that those woofers handled by design, normally goes to 150hz to even 350 hz depends the overall speaker design. When the recording signal ask to reproduce a 20hz frequency those woofers at the same time must be reproducing other way higher frequencies/harmonics making the the IMD goes really high making a damages to all the system frequency response at the seat/listen position. In my point of view and along the other disadvantages that others of you already posted " against " full range speakers in reality is a big mistake to invest on it. Even those full range speakers can be up-graded with a pair of self powered sealed subs working in true stereo fashion where the full range speakers will be working as a satellite part of the room/speaker system. I agree with @noble100 that low bass is a separate music reproduction signal and mid range/highs an independent signal reproduction system. I already posted in other thread the next link that's a scientific papers made it by Harman International where they stated all what we need to learn about the use of subwoofers in general and for home systems:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/00da/51387c572cfd27c0256cb15e44e976a1a72e.pdf
coming from that link we can read: "
Four subwoofer at the wall midpoints (configuration 11) was the best practical configuration in terms of MSV. Two subwoofers at opposing wall midpoints (configuration 6) was nearly as good and also offered stronger low-frequency support. Configurations with more than four subwoofers were not found to be advantageous, especially when cost is factored in. These results appear to be generalizable to reasonably dimensioned rectangular spaces [19] . "" They are not talking about wired stereo or mono. So at our seat position normally two subs are enough and I'm for sealed subs designs against open/reflex ones that gives some problems on way up resonance frequencies. If you takes the Wilson Alexandria or MAXX 3 bot that goes to 20hz have that problem and both are reflex designs. I can't remember who speaks in the thread about the integration of very fast ribbob/electrostatic speakers with " slow " subwoofers and here an explanation about that tells us does not really exist that " slow " bass subs response other that the one coming from each instruments:
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm
The other subwoofers " main approach " to even or disappears standing waves in the room in reallity are not the main targets for add a pair of subs but to put at minimum the overall speaker system IMD kind of distortion as I already talked here:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058
the other main target is that the low bass system " management " if we do " perfectly " always we will have a way better whole room/system frequency response due that are the low bass range and its developed harmonics whom tame and put the overall signature at the mid range and high frequency range. The low bass range is the frame of what we are listening at our seat position. So as better room/speaker system low bass range as better quality whole room/system levels. As a " side " advantages adding subs gives better low bass quality, deeper low bass, tigther bass response ( less overhang. ). When I said deeper low bas I'm not saying down to 20hz only but even lower that that where belive it or not exist more information that what we could think. In other thread I said the importance that the subs it self can comes with a truly low THD at 20hz and 100db SPL, mines around 0.5%. One gentleman there tolds that is not important if the response is evenly in the low bass but I think that we can have evenly bass response with low THD and evenly bass response with higher THD. Maybe I'm wrong but if I was any one of you I always will look for a low THD for my susbs: this is a good place tostart along sealed kind of design. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
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