Fpeel, I didn't realize I was being tested. I still like krell, I have owned Krell, wish I still did. I sold it to aquire a triamp system that is good, but not what the Krell was. |
Why Is Krell the a bad work??? Good Question with a surpassingly long thread of equally entertaining answers! It just goes to show that we are all up to the challenge! We're all more than willing to contribute in every and any way we can. With this said, my contribution is as follows: Krell gear is a bad work because heavy the a expensive and sound the a work not good sometimes but then ok. I know because golden ears I have part time but sometimes the a bad work too. Band aids for all! |
Damn. Once again I leave this forum for a few days and miss a set of very entertaining exchanges. Glad to see Retro wasn't easily scared off. We can use the new blood. Even if it eventually ends up spilt on the streets... |
My experience with Krell service domestically has been stellar. Both times I needed it, it was for used equipment. Once the repaired it under warranty, no questions asked, returned totally cleaned up and buff, the other the unit was not under warranty but they gave me prompt attention. It's unfortunate to hear of your experiences. |
I have several Krell products and enjoy their sound and technical finesse a lot. BUT ... when there is a technical problem (and there are some once in a while (opening/closing of CD player covers, function indicators, AC switches, usually this kind of 'small stuff'), then there is trouble and frustration. Their authorized repair agents in Europe (e.g. Germany), Hong Kong or even their 'home' in Orange, CT, are slow, unreliable and communicate in a way that is not up to the professional level the price of their equipment might suggest. I am right now waiting already a months for fixing a CD-player lid that got stuck. This side of their business makes it difficult to consider further purchases or recommending them to other audiophiles. In this price range one can expect highest quility not only in the equipment itself, but also in the service going with it. |
Retroguy, good to have you here. Post up more often! Charlie |
Trelja, some points well taken. I think that I will join for the long hall, acornfedboy seems to be a decent gent afterall. Hatchets are buried deep. I never meant to indicate that I was some omnipotent audio god. I stated that what I learned in the store was the FOUNDATION of my of my knowlege. I have never stopped learning. I may sound arrogant, but I'm not just cocky. I have studied music and audio through the entire recording chain. I took classes in recording technics not at some engineer in a can type of school but at a working 24 track studio. The tuition was repaid in working the studio. It supplied me with knowledge that I would never have been able to get from a book. This was part of my foundation. my wife used to dance for the Geoffrey Ballet in New York, this supplied me with knowledge of music in relaition to movement and dance composition. I have studied alot more concerning audio than how one piece sounds compared to the other. Agian if this makes my posts sound arrogant or cocky I'm sorry. I'm glad you have such a diverse amount of good dealers in your area. UNfortunately, most of the good dealers in mine have gone to their demise. Bestbuy and Circuit city have taken their toll. You aren't going to find hi-fi in either location. BTW I have been a lurker on this site for around two years. I have done some buisness on this site as well. Everyone have a nice weekend, If I don't get off this computer, I think that I will have only two children to be concerned about putting through college. |
Retroguy, I understand and agree with many of your opinions on audio. I form opinions by experience(in every sense of the word). The way all human beings do. I am not going to stand up, and give you a history of my audio experiences. That would be boring, among many other things. Suffice it to say that if you become a regular member of this site, the person I am(as well as other members) will be revealed to you on several levels. I do not subscribe to buying equipment sound unheard, if at all possible. More importantly, for electronics and/or speakers. You may be under the impression that you have been educated to the point where you feel you know what is important to know. If that is the case, I can assure you that your education is not yet complete(if it is even possible to attain). Interacting with the incredibly diverse and knowledgeable members of this site will teach you more than you would believe. That is, if you are of open enough mind to receive what they so graciously offer. I live on the east coast. For me to drive two hours(in any direction) brings me to an incredible amount of dealers. I can pretty much give a thorough audition to anything I am interested in. And, even more than one time. And I have the type of relationship with several dealers where I can perform a THOROUGH home audition of their equipment. I have learned that not everyone has this luxury. Some people live in areas where they do not have the opportunity to do this. They have to buy things based on our recommendations. That is why many of us offer our help in a heartfelt manner. We are talking about people's money and satisfaction here. Not to mention our own reputations. I agree that it would be nice to become infinitely familiar with a product before purchase. That is however, a utopian idea on many fronts. Working at a dealership is one of the few ways that affords this way of doing things. By that logic, you would only buy things that you would be selling; those being the only components you are capable of knowing on such level. Some could argue that would be more tragic than one who does not audition at all, but solely relies on the opinions of fellow Audiogon members. I think the ultimate goal of this hobby is enjoyment. However that goal is attained. I have found that those who don't espouse their knowledge or listening skills in an "I'm better than you are" mentality usually enjoy themselves more than those in the other group. Hope you take the time to join us for the long haul. I can assure you, it has been a tremendously rewarding endeavor for me. |
Khrys: Thank you for putting my mind at ease. For an instant I thought that I was imagining things:-) |
Dekay: Aren't you a hermaphrodite? Offense could be taken here either way but none meant. I had assumed you were asexual but see you sometimes referred to as a person. Imagine that. |
CFB: Strunk & White for sure. Audio Comeuppance Edition. 164th printing this year. So far. |
Khrys: Aren't you a girl, female - lady? No offense either way. I had assumed that you were but sometimes see you referred to as a guy. |
retro: gosh , i guess you would have written, say, a 3000 word response if i didn't bore you. BTW, i am quite familiar with the home of the fighting illini. i have a couple or three of degrees from the univ. of iowa (hence my monikor). we always called your school simply "illinois." never figured those schools in chicago, etc. were a part of the big 10, er, 11. at least since the univ of chicago last won the rose bowl. betcha i've been in your audio shop, tho not when you worked there. FWIW, i'm not a terrorist, despite what carl_eber rants. bury your hatchet, retro. you'll feel better. peace. |
khrys: i really like your sense of humor. did you teach english, too? english major? major smart guy? spend all evening with strunk & white? |
Cornfed: I know what you mean about the ones that grab you right away with their dazzle or excessive smoothness. I have always used certain source material whether it was vinyl, in the beginning, or CD now, and listen to specific notes and instruments to see how the piece is doing. If it passes a few (five) of these simple tests then I move on to the bigger guns to see how it puts them all together. It is very tedious, but is gets things moving quickly. Right now I am auditioning some new cone points and platforms. My wife is ready to vomit at the sound of some of these pieces:-) |
Cornpone, I'm sorry the name fits, but it does. Apparently you have a good "rapport" with your local dealers if what you say is to be believed. Good for you. Now, UIUC stands for The University OF Illinois at Champaign/Urbana. It is a highly regarded University for Electrical Engineering. Nuff said. My secondary education at the store was much more interesting. When you are able to gleen the minds of such people as Brian Theil, Mark Levinson, Jason Bloom and th like, You have a tendency to retain the information for a long time. When Mr. Nakamichi personally comes to introduce the new 1000 series, you take notes. Yes, my college years have stuck with me. They were the foundation on which I built my system. They do give me the right to say that I can hear the nuances. The word synergy has been used alot in these posts. This is pretty accurate description for most systems. Synergy is a positive out come from forces working for and against each other in an other wise chaotic system. That out come can only be determined by you and your ears. When listening to a new piece of equipment, I will go buy a few completley new CD's. Theycan be by performers that i'm familiar with or a complete stranger. I then see if anything really reaches out to me, if it does I reinstall the old piece and see if it can be reproduced with the same pleasure. If so, the new piece isn't worth going any further with, if not, then I proceed with the new. This usually includes writing a check. BTW I feel no need to kiss up to anyone, they simply posted the kind of responce that is truly worthy of a responce. You, I am done with. I will not respond to you again. I have better things to do with my time and effort. Terrorist or not, I'm done. You bore me. |
Because English syntax is unusually restrictive regarding definite articles and predicate nominatives, in case you hadn't noticed. Asking "Why is Krell the a bad work?" only shamelessly begs the question, which is only all too obvious. |
dekay: excellent post! i've always believed i've had a good aural memory, too. i'm sure, tho, mine's not up to yours. my problem is: i can remember the sound of lots of equipment, the name and designation of which cannot be retrieved from my memory banks. as to the time it takes to audition equipment, permit me this observation: there's certain stuff that upon a short hearing will grab you by the scrotum and lead you to beleive life's not living if you can't own it; longer auditioning, tho, will reveal that the quality that first drew you in is, in fact, fatiguing. krell amps are perfect exemplars of this phenomenon. it is because of this that i distrust short-term auditions. my practice over the past few years has been to audition a piece in my system for at least two days. if i'm seriously interested in a possible purchase after the initial audition, i require at least an additional week's play in my system. recognize, tho, that we're talkin' here of $20k+ speakers and amp/pre/dacs in similar ranges. (without modesty, i should note, i've been at this hobby for 30+ years; if dealers don't meet my expectations, i simply go elsewhere.) |
Retro: In regard to how long does it take to assess a piece of gear, I consider myself to be a "quick study" and I assume that many others are as well. I am also not an audiophile by any means. I spent 30 years listening to and playing live music and I have been at this hobby for 30 years as well (with a big vacation in the middle of it). If I am familiar with the associated equipment and have listened to "my" music in the room for a period of time, I can form a definite opinion at a dealer's showroom on a piece of gear (though it is not as strong as one that I would form at home). When auditioning gear at home, I usually know within the first few minutes if I like the piece or not and if I do like it, then 24 hours is plenty of time for me to make up my mind how it places among my other favorites both new and old. I know what to listen for and I know what I do and don't like. It's that simple. Synergy has a lot to do with it, but a bad piece is a bad piece, IMO. This may sound unbelievable, but I have a fairly accurate aural memory of every piece of gear and system that I have owned and lived with. These memories do include a few memorable auditioned pieces as well, like the B&O 5700 speakers for some odd reason. I also remember conversations as well as music going back many years and I can usually play them back as if they are on a tape deck in my head. This was a big asset (to me) when I was involved in business. On the other hand I have almost no visual memory whatsoever to the point where I do not have the slightest idea what clothing my wife is wearing in the next room and I can even forget what I am wearing if I do not take a peek. I have some trouble remembering written information as well. To each his own, don't expect others to necessarily share your traits. |
retro: how do you form your opinions of audio equipment? does your auditory memory of your college days provide you a reference catalog? how do you know that dealers where i live will loan out equipment only to those who've "built rapport"? or that such home auditions are limited to 2 days? (in fact, you are dead wrong on both these "audition" points.) oh, and what does uiuc stand for? BTW, retro, you're the one who started the name-calling here. the tone of my reposte was meant to deflect the absurd stridency of your second post of 01/11/01. read your words there over again and see if you can figure out why they were met with derision by all who responded, not just me. you're not gonna gain any points here suckin' up to trelja or dekay, or me for that matter. think before you write and reread what you've written before you push the "submit" button. i know, this is mere gratuitous advice but it's offered sincerely as a flame preventative. peace. |
Trelja, How do you form your opinions? Do you purchase the equipment and then live with that equipment long enough to truly get to know the product. Most people cannot simply cut a check for let us say $6,000.00 just to see if the unit will be a good addition to the system, they cannot afford the loss of reselling the unit as used. In some occasions a dealer will charge out a unit to a good customer for a day or two at best. It takes a long time to build that kind of rapport and trust. Even if you do have that option available, is two days enough to get to know the equipment. For those people whom don't have either option available, they must form opinions by simple instore auditions. The variables that affect the audition are so great in number that I really don't how anyone can create a strong opinion that is meaningful and accurate. I don't intend to offend anyone. If I have, you all have my most sincere appologies, except cornpone. UIUC is not a trade school and yes my part time job at a hi-fi store did qualify me to hear very subtle differences in equipment. I heard the best of the best for four years on a daily basis. I was trained by some of the true Golden Ears that have been instrumental in the foundation of several of todays best of the best. I have designed and built loudspeakers for the pure joy of it for 18 years. What is your history? |
Retroguy, I have no issue with your grammar. It is irrelevant to me. I am only concerned with content. While I cannot say your methods will win friends, I welcome your opinions. Whether I agree or disagree. And please give me the respect of not blanketly saying that we on this site only regurgitate what others say. I do not regurgitate opinion. I form my own, and share them. Whether they are right or wrong(if that even applies), is secondary to the point that they ARE mine. |
One more thing Cornpone, I furgot Yee Haw. |
What does my grammar have to do with anything? I suppose that I should dumb myself down to the average, or below. Ok cornpone, I'll give you a break. I'm outta this here place and headed back to the queen of my double wide palace. Stop by sometime, we'll get drunk an shoot some stuff up. |
Or: Pon'tuna'cation, Pon'tune'acation...need more music |
Retro: Nice pon"tun"ification:-) |
retroguy: i guess they didn't require the mastery of english grammar at uiuc (united institute of unctuous cobblers?). anyway, what's your point? you can hear differences others can't because you had a part-time job at a "real highend" store while attending trade school? noone has a right to criticize gear they haven't owned? (that'd be real smart, eh.) give us a break. how is it the the opinions of those who post here, or others likem', is "driving the price of good equipment sky high"? sorry, but your theory makes neither economic or logical sense. care to explicate "retroguy's axiom of audio philosophy"? |
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My problem with people giving help on equipment is that most are simply regurgitating what they have heard others say, very few comments are based on any real empirical evidence. When I was at UIUC, I worked in an Audio store that sold real high end components. Our line up consisted of Krell, Levinson, Cello, Jadis, Magnepan, Apogee, Linn, Sumo, Belles et al. Monday evenings seemed to be the night that the So called Audiophiles would pounce on our store to banter at each otherabout the pros and cons of Audio. Now most of them had really nice gear. Gear that they were intimatley familiar with. Again most would denounce the abilities of one brand versus another with out having lived with the equipment. How can you derive a cogent argument with out knowing the unit as well as you know your own? You listen to what others say, you read what so and so wrote in TAS or some other rag. Soon you have a huge pile of vomitus garbage. Most people tha would argue against Krell, have never owned it! Look at the who RU thread. That was genius. It is suprisingly fresh. Most of the people that responded have very modest systems, yet I recognise some of the tags as being very boisterous about certain products that according to their own admissions, are out of their range. I'm not Clueless ( I did laugh at the movie) and I'm not a trouble maker. Unless you consider some one who is honest enough to say make the decision yourself when it comes to equipment. The person giving the advice might have spent the better part of their youth standing in front of the mains and banging their head. Or they might judge their equipment by having a string quartet play in their great room( I know some one that does this). One final point, this cottage industry is doing itself a great deal of harm by being so damned critical. The minutia out weighs the gross. This is driving the price of good equipment sky high. Can you truly justify spending Fifty thousand dollars on a pair of reference amps. I can hear the difference, I simply cannot justify it. I believe that gear does make the difference, but where does it stop and on who's authority |
Because people Like Carl Eber say its good.Everyone knows carls a knob. |
What were you expecting Retro? This is a gear site. We do discuss music as well, but it is mainly about sharing information on how the gear portrays the music. In other words I understand the music that I listen to but need a little help on the equipment that I listen to it with. Are you that clueless of just a trouble maker? |
Didn't take it personal at all, Retro, and even agree with much of the post in question. Was just pointing out the obvious. So wear the shoe; it not only fits, it matches the outfit. |
Fpeel, thank you for making my point. Your inability to distance yourself from my post shows how petty you are. I pointed no finger at an indiviual, yet you have to make it personal and attack me directly. |
Hear, hear. To Retroguy and Fpeel. |
"The whole thing stinks of petty little personal issues and whiney little people. " Kind of like the post that contained that wonderful insight? |
One simple question- When do go beyond the critical listening and get to enjoying the music? It sickens me to here the banter of this. The krell lifted the veil over the midrange or the plinius sounds so much more robust and authoritative in the lower frequencies. The Cello amps sound so much more liquid and not so solid as the Thresholds. My amp can beat up your amp. It's all B/S. There is one question that most audiophiles need to ponder, Do I love the music or the toys. I won't be visiting this site very often any more, I'm sure this won't upset anybody. The whole thing stinks of petty little personal issues and whiney little people. |
I havent heard Krell so I cant comment on it. I am curious though why people care about how many new models they come out with after they bought theres. I have seen this complaint often and I am just curious. |
Just to add another 0.02 to this ongoing discussion...I think that part of the reason Krell draws so many bashers is that it is a successful and high profile high end audio company much the same as Callaway with golf clubs which draws its share of bashers too. In both cases, a fine but pricey product is produced that may not work for everyone. Trouble is the companies are almost mainstream (ie. not overly esoteric) so they may attract a certain segment of the market that has "more money than brains". BTW, I have Krell in one system, Rowland in another and Rotel in a third. |
I've read the same about Mark Levinson gear. I have a ML333 amp and never read more opposing reviews on any other product. But I went with my ears and felt it was the truest sounding amp in my system. Quality power is key for amps and this has that. |
Everyones tastes are different. My personal opinion is that at first I love the crisp dynamics and powerful bass of Krell amps. I feel the sound is true and very exciting for the first 20 minutes or so depending on the material played. It is after extended listening that I feel it is too analytical and I don't feel drawn into the music. It becomes to sterile...just no sweetness to the music. At the price point of the Krell FPB line I would personally spend my money on another brand but I still think they make a fine product and the build quality is first rate. These observations are only of there class A amps and not of the KAV line which I think are a near sonic match with Parasounds line which make the Krell KAV line way over priced IMHO. Definately different strokes for different folks!!! |
krell is good! owner of krell monos and pre,as with so many things ,its what you think is best that counts, dont let manipalitive people try to convince you other wise.let your ears lead you! |
I have never posted before which I think makes me a "lurker" in internet newsgroup jargon. But I can no longer sit on the sidelines and remain silent with respect to Krell. I received an extremely high pressure sales pitch from a NY dealer to chuck my beloved hodge podge of high end compnents for a Krell system and I think it SUCKS. I regret the day I sold my other equipment and I have never enjoyed the Krell stuff. I have found it hard, very bright and fatiguing to listen to through my B&W 800s which sounded magical with Conrad Johnson. It is true, Krell is overmarketed, over rated mediocre junk. |
Vegasears, just sit back and listen to the music and enjoy. No matter what you do someone is going to disagree, in particular on this web-site(no offense guys). I have listened to krell amps in my stereo they just never seemed to 'mate-up' as well as other products, does it make Krell junk? definetly not. I have heard some krell that sounds great, and if that is the case with your stereo(it sounding great) then there is absolutely no reason to make a changes. Enjoy your amp and happy listening. |
c'mon ben, you're starting to sound like mr. eber. he thinks there's only one guy in cyberspace who dislikes his opinions/rants and sez so thru multiple user names. i agree that some of this stuff is repetitious garbage but, hey, it's likely heartfelt garbage. ;-0 |
I'm actually starting to think that everybody that posts to Audiogon is actually the same person!!!!A deranged audio enthuasist with multiple personalties.....which means I'm not real...ah now everything makes sense...... |
it sounds like hifi, period |
The problem with the Krell is their product line-up decisions. Who else but Krell would discontinue a brilliant preamp KRC-HR and keep lousy KRC-3. Who else but Krell would stick a 'c' without an upgrade path to the FPB. Seven years ago, I bought a KRC-2 and KSA-100. Two years later, upgraded to KRC-HR and KSA-200S. Some time later they brought out FPB. Now they have the 'c', the CAST and whatever. Seven years ago I bought a ML 30 & 31. Now I have a 30.6 & 31.5 - the originals upgraded. Krell does not seem to want 'faithful customers' - so, to hell with them. There are other, and better products out there. |
Vegasears: You should just enjoy the FPB you have. I certainly do. Don't take other's opinions personally. Krell 1 and Nanderson made great comments. I always thought those who have STRONG anti-Krell opinions are strange. When I hear thoughtfully justified critiques against Krell gear then I can respect their opinion. As has been said, their are plenty of threads on the topic. I'm really happy with my almost all Krell system! |
No, it might not be everybody's cup of tea. I have been buying and selling audio for about 20 years, and have owned tube and solid state high end equipment. I bought my first Krell amp about 7 years ago and got hooked on the impact, dynamics and control that it offered. From then on I assembled a KRC-HR,300S,MD-10,Studio DAC,B&W 801's, and PAD cables. This system I believe has a balance that I am not willing to part with. I have listened to new Krell equipment (and B&W's), and I do not care for it plus mine is paid for. I have converted and attracted many non- audiophile friends to wanting what they never thought was possible. All manufactuerers use certain equipment in the "voicing" of their equipment, and that is the type of synergy that should be persued. I also have heard that C.J. and CAT pre amps are great with Krell amps. I also feel that I can play any type of music on my system and it will closely portray what was intended and not robbing the energy. But remember, in the end you have to live with the system of your choice |
sorry rosey, 12:30 a.m. New Years eve. gets easy to mix things up. Any way this aint no freakin English class. I do not care if you like Krell or not I don't even own any of it, but everybody has an opinion. Just cause you do not like it does not mean everyone else shouldn't. |
