Why Do So Many Audiophiles Reject Blind Testing Of Audio Components?

As for the simple question why those who refuse to do a blind test/audition to me there could be a few reasons, and 2 come to mind, being afraid to chose the component that "is best", or being afraid to realize that your position on a subject, for example like you say you can(n’t) distinguish the difference in AC or Ethernet cables is wrong.

I have never bought a component without a blind test, my audio dealer facilitates that. All of his 6 audition rooms are set up for blind testing, all you need to say is I want to audition x,y,z he will also include one or 2 of his choice and then call you so you can audition until you have an ordered/ranking of the components you like best. If you tell him what components you have will will do his best to reproduce them so at the very least you have the reference.

I have walked out many time spending a lot less, and many others spending a lot more :)

The process is as long or short as you want, this is why to me blind auditioning is the best way to let my ears do the choice, and I have yet to walk away with a component that does measure great. As always, there are exceptions, like a PS audio powerplants, I know very well that will not do anything to my components' sound side because they are on the DC domain, but they are a nice looking power strip.

How do you tune a room with blindtest? 😁😊

This tuning process is an addition of many hundred alternative changes, if not thousands on a period of many years for me...

Then saying that i can be afraid of blindtest is bordering on ridiculous...

I passed many "acidental" "haphazard " blind test by unforeseen circonstances sometimes with surprizing results in this journey, confirming the value of my tuning process...

Saying that we are afraid of blindtest is borderline ridiculous argument...

A singular change borderline audible can be doubted for sure and must be, like in a delicate buying option, but a streak of continuous change in one acoustic direction : for example a better timbre perception is always, in spite of errors in this direction which will be rectified, ineluctably programmed by listening non blind numerous experiments...

But i understand it can be useful if someone is in a showroom and must choose between 2 components....It occur with success many decades ago when i was in the same buying circonstance....

But anyway there is no comparison between the same piece of gear BEFORE acoustic treatment and control and AFTER...

Give me any relatively good piece of gear and i will use it with success if i can tune the room for it...The gear choice is LESS important than the rightful acoustic tuning process...Most people for sure think the exact opposite...It is like saying that sound come from the electronic design by itself alone not from his coupling with a room for the most part...

No speakers can beat the room where they are located...

Acoustic/psycho-acoustic method are the key, not blind test.... Which is a secondary tool at most ....

...As for the simple question why those who refuse to do a blind test/audition to me there could be a few reasons, and 2 come to mind, being afraid to chose the component that "is best", or being afraid to realize that your position on a subject, for example like you say you can(n’t) distinguish the difference in AC or Ethernet cables is wrong.

@mahgister Speakers with blind masks like the ones some people use to sleep. :) components are behind curtains(?)/drapes.  I love the masks,  my brain and ears focus a lot more. Yes, I can cheat by looking but then no need to cheat myself 🤣 

The rooms setup are very smart, you can audition 3 different speakers on the same room, they are in a carousel that they can rotate quickly and adjust angles. 

Some have the ability to test 2 different set of components some 3, all can fit 2 turntables..

At the end if you are not sure on the components, you can get them installed in your listening place, there is a charge for the setup, that gets waived if you buy or are a repeating customer. The family is in the business since the late 30s one of the older audio stores in Barcelona and Spain.

Every other month or 2 there is a full day on listening on the store, you can sign up in advance, he also has launching products and clothing and lingerie parties for our wives or partners. 

I do not mind paying a little more not just for the addons but because their customer service is incredible too.

I wish there was something like this in the Seattle area.

 

Interesting indeed...

But my point was about the tuning of OUR  room/speakers relation by our specific ears for a specfic speakers/system.. I dont need blind test for that...

To choose a piece of gear i dont contest that this blind testing store is a good idea... Viva Barcelona!

Thanks for this interesting story...

astolfor

288 posts

04-05-2022 at 07:00pm 

@mahgister Speakers with blind masks like the ones some people use to sleep. :) components are behind curtains(?)/drapes.  I love the masks,  my brain and ears focus a lot more. Yes, I can cheat by looking but then no need to cheat myself 🤣 

The rooms setup are very smart, you can audition 3 different speakers on the same room, they are in a carousel that they can rotate quickly and adjust angles. 

Some have the ability to test 2 different set of components some 3, all can fit 2 turntables..

At the end if you are not sure on the components, you can get them installed in your listening place, there is a charge for the setup, that gets waived if you buy or are a repeating customer. The family is in the business since the late 30s one of the older audio stores in Barcelona and Spain.

Every other month or 2 there is a full day on listening on the store, you can sign up in advance, he also has launching products and clothing and lingerie parties for our wives or partners. 

I do not mind paying a little more not just for the addons but because their customer service is incredible too.

I wish there was something like this in the Seattle area.

 

At home is a different history :) but in general in my ears the qualities of the a component transfer and by this time I already have a good sound map on the different rooms. 

Don't you believe that if 2 rooms are properly arranged for your ears they will sound fundamentally similar but with their own signature?

 

There is an acoustic signature of a room by itself, by virtue of his vibrating body...

All rooms differ...Even if i tune them, why?

For the same reason that the vibrating body of all violins differ from one another for an educated ear even when they are tuned by the musician himself... They always differ and this difference i call it yes their acoustic signature, their timbre ...

Then the 2 rooms like the 2 violins will produce the same musical tonal playing but with a different sound timbre perception, so subtle the difference could be and will be, the difference will stay...

This is the reason that we only know how sound an audio system in some specific conditions when we tune it ourself with the chosen room ...If we listen to it in another acoustic conditions , it will not change completely for sure, because like for the room which will sound different before and after his tuning , the audio system has his own internal acoustic signature which will express itself differently in different room ... It is his "timbre" expression so to speak...Like a human body can play the same tone than any other body but with a unique timbre expression...

This is the reason why there is no absolute room and no absolutely perfect gear system...No absolute timbre perception either...Perfect hearing of perfect pitch is not the same phenomenon than timbre perception itself...

«Pitch allows us to hear intonation in a language and notes in a melody. Timbre allows us to distinguish the vowels and consonants that make up words, as well as the unique sound qualities of different musical instruments. Combinations of pitch and timbre enable us to identify a speaker’s voice or a piece of music.»

Then pitch perception and production is linked to some precise frequency tone, timbre is a more complex phenomenon related to the resonant human and musical body in an acoustic environment ... Timbre phenomenon cannot be reduced to only a spectrum envelope for example there is also a time envelope and way more related to the interaction with the acoustic environment around the resonant body ...

Pitch perception will not change from a different room or from a different singer body to another one...

Timbre will change from one room to another and from a singer to another one....

 

In a word multiple trade-off are at play in acoustic/psycho-acoustic ....There is no perfect room, no perfect instrument, no perfect ears, only perfect musical tone yes...

Then your choice of words is neither true nor wrong...I only try here to convey my own limited understanding from my room tuning process...

Remember that i am not a musician nor an acoustician either, i only made listenings experiments in my room...

Then two room even tuned by me cannot sound similar, they own different signatures that i adapted to my own liking or ears/brain signature... If we put the same system in these 2 room, different in size, geometry, topology and acoustic content my tuning will transform them in something i like yes but different...( the audio system is part of this acoustic content of the room and the same system will sound in a different way in the two rooms)

All of what i just said dont contradict the fact that picking between some different pieces of gear in a room tuned by me is a good idea Why?

Because if i tuned the room i will not need a blind test to chose well... If i dont know the room signature it is better with a blind test yes...

My best to you....

 

 

Don’t you believe that if 2 rooms are properly arranged for your ears they will sound fundamentally similar but with their own signature?

 

When you meet a new person can you look at them for a few seconds and determine how they compare to the last person you met, or does it take time for their true nature and character to reveal itself? 

For me, it's the same with audio components.  It takes time to get to know them.

@big_greg

"When you meet a new person can you look at them for a few seconds and determine how they compare to the last person you met, or does it take time for their true nature and character to reveal itself?

For me, it’s the same with audio components.

It takes time to get to know them."

 

Fair enough, if you believe there might be parallels between comparing a human being with an electronic device - I can't fathom certain human beings even after knowing them for decades but that's another story - but what about those who went around espousing "night and day" differences, yet dare not risk undertaking a blind listening test between a $10 DAC and one costing 100 times as much?

Let’s not forget that human perception evolved primarily to detect differences, which often meant danger. It’s something we’re very good at.

Therefore if it really does take several days/ weeks to identify a sonic difference, which might only be due to a subtle anomaly in frequency response, then just how important could it be anyway?

Furthermore, wouldn’t such delicate differences between frequency response will inevitably suit some material/systems and not others?

In fact you could argue that when the detection of extremely marginal differences (which may well be down to manufacturing tolerances) takes such a long period of time how can we be sure that it’s not our mood/attitude that is actually changing instead of any increase in our perception?

You can bet that the equipment on test will always be slitkre consistent than the human being doing the testing by ears alone.

It’s quite one thing to say I love product X, it’s better built, has better backup service, but entirely another to say it’s clearly sonically better than product Y.

Sonic differences are, I suspect, easily the most important factor when it comes to purchasing new equipment. Audiophiles change equipment in an attempt to upgrade their sound.

I can’t see any reason why us consumers would have a problem with blind listening tests when auditioning potential upgrades. Money and sonic satisfaction are very important to most of us, aren’t they?

So perhaps we should also ask that why is it primarily manufacturers, dealers and reviewers that have an issue with blind listening tests? Instead of embracing an additional way of evaluation, some them seem to be quite hostile.

 

Reviewers/shills/ad men/hacks/sales reps etc seem to be particularly cowardly/defensive/guarded/silent when it comes to reviewing blind.

In fact I know not of a single one that would risk their ’reputation’ in this way.

Not one.

Why is this?

Perhaps their fear of destroying their entire retail business model by revealing the emperor’s new clothes syndrome is real enough.

It should be easy enough to arrange for most, but can you imagine any dealer offering the facilities for prospective customers to listen blind?

Me neither.

@cd318 Thank you for reinforcing my point.  The differences are often subtle and it takes me extended listening to discover those differences and see how I react to them. 

I have nothing "against" blind testing.  Blind test your heart out.  I don't however think it's an effective way for me to judge the sound quality of audio equipment. 

The thing with extended auditioning is that there is a lot of adaptation and not working using short term memory. 

Kind of like going to the eye doctor, the changes in the lenses magnification is deliberately quick because one's brain is working in short term memory and very good at knowing what is good for him. Eye doctors don't send you with a lens to test for a week and see how your eye feel. 

There are a lot of papers discussing this subject in the Audio Engineering Society. I wish I could post some parts but my petition was denied. If one is really interested in these subjects it is worth joining, but be prepared to read long papers with a lot of math and statistics.

Fun story, a few years back, I had my eye doctor and his dad, also an eye doctor, and I asked the young one if he knew why they change the lenses so fast and he said because he usually want to finish quickly, his father almost gave him a spank and asked if I knew or I was being me curious so he told me that  short memory  key in finding the right lenses, because the short memory comparison is key. 

Many times with my dealer we discussed why he plays one short passage and switch, and he says that after their blind test you should have 2 components you like over  the others, and if you are unsure then buy the cheapest.

My dealer also referrers to the long auditioning as a good way to find those things that bother one, like interfaces, switches, esthetics, and anything that is in the functionality domain and see if you like the sound in your home.

All the times I leverage the long term, I only bought something else because something bothered me, I am autistic and some things just don't fit in my brain. Even if the component sounds better, whatever it is distract me from listening. 

English as nth language.

That is why I only like to make changes that are immediately noticeable and not subtle. The subtle ones I am sure add up over the long term, it is just tougher to appreciate and justify them.

@astolfor

"...his father almost gave him a spank and asked if I knew or I was being me curious so he told me that short memory key in finding the right lenses, because the short memory comparison is key"

 

Thanks for sharing that interesting post.

Short term memory comparison does seem to make a lot of sense whenever we have to rely upon our senses. Everytime I look at a picture or a scene and then close my eyes to visualise it, I’m always a little disappointed to find upon opening my eyes once more just how much detail and nuance had faded so fast.

As for autism, unfortunately it still seems to be a mysterious condition, even in 2022.

Best of luck to you.

 

In blindtest to detect DIFFERENCE in sound working with the short term memory is the best yes...

But a difference in sound is an IMPROVEMENT or a DEGRADATION in some direction relative to many aoustical cues at the same time : timbre spectral evenlope, timbre time envelope, imaging, soundstage, dynamic, LEV/ASW ratio, reverberation time, and others acoustical cues relating to the head/torso relation to each speaker for each ears... Then to detect if a difference will be qualified good or bad we need TIME and the detection must be made in a KNOWN acoustical environment with a known musical cues...

To evaluate these changes only relatively long listening session linked to the body/feeling/ brain memory make sense in the acoustical room/ speakers TUNING direction..

We have very short term memory of sound yes but also a body memory linked to emotions associated with past sound long term experiences... It is why hearing sounds must be learned in acoustic and music....The long term memory is not a direct storage of the sound but a feeling engrammation related to the sound...

This acoustic feeling is what a musician use to qualify a sound/music well done... Perfect pitch hearing is another matter...Most musician must learn to reproduce and recognize pitch...They learn how to feel it...And the feeling associated with the tone nevermind the timbre is memorized...It is why a minor chord or a major chord own different feeling meaning...Joy or sadness for example...

 

 

By the way i studied practical acoustic in my room for the last 2 years, i discovered that we dont understand what sound really is...i say that but i am not a scientist for sure...It is my informed opinion based on my listening experiments...

Acoustic is a marvellous very complex field and philosophically super deep....

For example sound is not a wave but the wave is the image of the resonant body source....

For sure without air wave there is no sound hearing, but air also make possible fire but the air are not the fire but a cause of his qualitative manifestation.. To hear sound we need a resonant qualified body to be the source interacting though air wave with our ears ...To have fire we need a combusting matter interacting with air and our feeling body called that "hot".......

Human ears/brain are able to detect QUALITATIVE information from the resonant sound source by the mediation of the wave image...Like blind people use waves image trough a resonant echo to reconstruct without eyes the environment geometry and the object matter various densities around them ...

 

@cd318 Autism is my gift, tool and best feature for vast most part, so much to thank.  I just have some quarks, some find them funny and some they do not know what to do and get kind of scared  so they don't get to know me. I have a great partner, son, adopted daughter, very good friends, and colleagues. To be frank I can't ask more from life. 

I have perfect vision and when something sounds like crap well it sounds like crap, I do not need to compare it to something that sounds good.

A spec sheet tells me shite. 

If it sounds like its spec sheet then swell.

I only accept testing by my ears.

I have perfect vision and ...I only accept testing by my ears...

A spec sheet tells me shite.

If it sounds like its spec sheet then swell.

I’m confused by many things from time to time and am the first to admit my own limitations.

I have yet to get my sensory functions confused, though, especially when it is being sought to demonstrate their infallibility.  Never-mind some inanimate object revealing itself, I can cope with that on Audiogon.

 

audiophiles: trust your ears! my wife can hear how much better my system sounds with my $9000 power cord and she's in the kitchen with the dishwasher running! it's not subtle, a veil is lifted! 

also audiophiles: no I won't do a blind abx test, you can't trust your ears, hearing is flawed. 

keep slurping that Kool Aid.