Why are the vocals on some records hidden behind the music on my system?

@scooby2do - before you get playing records - sounds like you are adjusting tracking force to set the VTA?

The upper limit tracking weight should not be exceeded. You should not use it to set VTA/SRA

Most cartridges(but not all) are designed such that the top of the cartridge, that mates to the arm, should be parallel to the playing surface - this almost always ensures the SRA is correct or within acceptable tolerances

Some cartridges do respond better with a "Tail-up" or "Tail down" alignment, but that is accomplished using the VTA adjustment feature of the arm (if it has one) - not the cartridge tracking force

The following is from Soundsmith on  VTA/SRA

Stylus Rake Angle

Firstly, let me explain a bit about VTA vs. SRA. This is a complex subject, one that is one of the most misunderstood aspects of cartridge design, manufacturing and alignment.

VTA is a term that describes the CANTILEVER tracking angle. Soundsmith uses cantilevers with VARIED designs of VTA. The universe of cartridges have historically been made with varied cantilever tracking angles over the many years, from as low as 15 degrees to as high as 30 or more.  The angle of the cantilever is of little value, as it describes only the design of a particular cartridges use of a particular cantilever/stylus design. What is finally important is always the SRA, or Stylus Rake Angle. That must always be 2 degrees, raked back towards the direction of the incoming groove in the record – that matches the way most all records are made.  

Soundsmith uses varied cantilevers, with varied VTA’s; these can change slightly from unit to unit as there is often variation in the mounting of the diamond as well as the faceting of the diamond. Many cartridge manufacturers do not take this into account carefully, and as a result, the resultant SRA can vary badly from unit to unit. Michael Fremer did an expose’ some time ago showing a very expensive NEW cartridge where the VTA was correct, but the SRA was not “just a bit off”, - in fact, it was not even close to being -2 degrees, but was PLUS 10 degrees. He posted a picture of it.

Recently the use of USB microscopes has brought a plethora of “experts” who believe they are viewing the SRA correctly. Often, they are fooled by the optics, an issue also complicated by the fact that by not realizing that by viewing the “shank” of the diamond they are not viewing the actual facet angle which traces the groove walls. This facet edge position VARIES from diamond to diamond within a single diamond stylus design as the shaft of the diamond is not always held perfectly in the tool that is used to hold it while the facets are being made. It can vary as much as +/- 4 degrees easily – WITHOUT the ability of being easily observed.  

So, while folks believe that they obtaining correct SRA by viewing either the edge facet itself, the cantilever VTA or the diamond shaft, they can still be very far off. Knowing the VTA of a particular cantilever/diamond design is therefore of little value. Also of extreme importance is the fact that a STATIC view of SRA - versus how the cantilever moves UP when the record is playing, offers additional degrees of ERROR when using a USB microscope to determine proper SRA.

An interesting case is the diamond we use in many of our models, including the Sussurro. Many who view that diamond with optical aids are shocked to see that it is raked back by what appears to be as much as 20 degrees, and have questioned Soundsmith’s ability to mount a stylus.

This particular diamond we use in several of our designs has a “HIDDEN” facet at the bottom, thus returning the SRA to 2 degrees raked inward. A discussion of our stylus in this regard, and the explanation,  can be found here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=927659

The most important thing to know when setting up ANY cartridge is that if it lucky enough to have been made correctly, that when the cartridge is mounted, the tone arm should be parallel with the surface of the record. SRA adjustments up and down from there can be made, and there are many ways to do this by ear, with advice coming from many sources – sometimes with opposing views - all posted on the web.

Soundsmith cartridges differ from others in this respect; since we well recognize the many extreme variables in mounting, manufacturing and attaching diamonds and cantilevers – as well as the SUSPENSION differences from cartridge to cartridge in ALL types of cartridges, we make every effort to adjust each of our cartridges individually to the variable nature of the true SRA of each cantilever/stylus assembly.  

Therefore, we assume that people who know about mounting and aligning cartridges know that one always starts with the tone arm parallel to the record, and adjusts up or down from there to listening preference.  

So as you can see - the stylus angle should NOT be at 90 degrees.

It may sound better, but you may be doing damage to the stylus or your albums

Regards

One additional variable to consider: have you played with capacitance in the phono preamp? Like Fremer, I have found the high-output Soundsmith moving iron cartridges benefit from extra capacitive loading — the effect is to generally sound “fuller”, which might be what you are looking for. 

williewonka- I think I see what you are getting at especially after read the info you took the time to post from soundsmith . I wasn't trying to adjust the vta/sra via vtf on purpose, but I guess that .2 grams extra might be enough to cause the cantilever to bend enough to do just that. And if that is the case then it would mean that the vta still is to high, right? So now the problem is how to actually find an accurate way to find 90 deg.for the tone arm and then make the up and down adjustments that will then fail in the vta. My thought is to find something that can be laid on tt that is known to be straight and then view the gap at both ends of the tonearm to this item when viewed from the bottom side (as long as the tone arm is a straight tube )  I have a laser level but I would have to build some kind of jig to mount it on to focus it on the plane along the pivot point of the tone arm. So I'll back the vtf back to 1.6 grams and start over again and hope for the best from there. I do acknowledge that the previous fix was more of a bandage instead of a real life fix. I'll let you know how this effort works out. Who knew HI-FIing was so hard (lol)

well once again I fixated on the wrong point for setting vta. While trying to find 90 degrees using the tone arm (which showed no improvement) I figured out that it is the head shell that is to be used as the reference point! Now that did make quiet a difference in the sound. Kudos to willewonka for pointing out article for soundsmith because where I was and where I am now might be 1/4" lower and sounds way better (not to say fine tuning may or may not help?).I think my next move will be to look into a TT with a vtaotf tone arm because there is no doubt that vta has a great deal of difference in the sound. I have learned a whole lot of things during this forum and hope to learn even more , this is why I came here in the first place was to learn.Thanks for all the help and ideas I'm sure I would have given up long ago if not for all of you taking an interest in my problem.

scooby2do

well once again I fixated on the wrong point for setting vta. While trying to find 90 degrees using the tone arm (which showed no improvement) I figured out that it is the head shell that is to be used as the reference point!

You seem to be confused about phono cartridge alignment. First, you do not want a 90 degree VTA. VTA should typically be in the range of about 15 to 20 degrees. SRA should be in the 90 degree range. Perhaps you are confusing the two.

In any event, proper phono cartridge alignment doesn’t rely on the headshell as a reference point, but the cantilever (and stylus) itself. Your failure to recognize this goes a long way towards explaining the trouble you’re having with setup.

IMO, the whole confusion between VTA and SRA stems from the fact that it is not possible to adjust one independently of the other.  FWIW, arm manufacturers describe this adjustment as VTA while a corresponding SRA adjustment feature in a cartridge is not available.  Regardless of what the geometric adjustment is called, the idea is to get the stylus to the correct vertical relationship between its edge profile and the grove of the record.  While the -2 degree specification that Soundsmith insists on is a good place to start, the cutter heads on record presses may or may not hold that geometry.  That's why an audible difference can be observed even between the 2 sides of the same record.

The issue of VTF is also a concern because it is affected by VTA.  Physical adjustments have to made (e.g. changing VTA by removing the mat) to accommodate for the height of the scale tray relative to the combined OAH of the mat & vinyl.  This is necessary to obtain a reasonably accurate VTF measurement for actual playback conditions.  Every tonearm is a bit different, but a long-standing rule of thumb is to get the VTF set when the arm wand is parallel to what will become the vinyl surface.  That will minimize VTA (inclusive of SRA) errors due to variations in vinyl thickness as well as minimizing induced VTF changes.  As the OP has discovered, it's also a very tedious process in fixed VTA arms.

These points of geometry are precisely why I am such a big fan of VTA OTF capability in tonearms.  Setting VTF becomes a rote task.  VTA (again, inclusive of SRA) becomes something that can be unambiguously controlled in real time.  It sounds better or it doesn't.  Stop adjusting when it sounds as good as you can get it.  The best arm and cartridge combos can resolve even minute differences to drive profound results.

Not everyone is willing to address all these minutiae simply to play recorded music, but the effort is worth it to me.  That's why audio is such a great hobby!

cleeds- read the article above provided by willewonka from soundsmith. It states that they think you should start with the tone arm is to be placed parallel to the record surface. Is that not 90 degrees? that is what I was referring to, but after finding what I considered parallel (90 degrees) I adjusted up and down to find that by setting the head shell mounting plate at close to 90 degrees (again parallel to the record) resulted in the best sound with the vocals out front. If you have a different method to find vta explain in more detail and I will be more than happy to try it out. In that same article it also states that their styli have a hidden facet that can be up +/- 4 degrees from 90 degrees so that sar is unreliable to use as a method of set up. Their words not mine, so how do you think I should proceed given this information. I have no problem attempting a different method if it can give me better results. Right now it's not bad but I do feel like it might be possible to attain better sound but chasing around in circles without some idea of which way to go and a way to get there does me no good. An observation I made today was using what I call the walk around test. After making a change and setting in the "sweet spot" for awhile I would get up and walk to different point in the room to see the effect in those locations. Sometimes it was better that the SS and other times it was not, but at some point it should sound good at all most all points. Now it may take some room treatments to make that happen , but it was just interesting to observe .

Kudos to Williewonka for pointing out the precision setup which is required for that stylus. I had one on a rebodied Denon 103R here and it is indeed a bit*h to setup; it is by far the most demanding stylus out there to set up IMO and extremely small setup errors or deviations can result in very poor sound quality from it, unlike many other line contacts (Peter's standard line contact among them) and micro ridges. Everything is absolutely critical with that stylus: VTA/SRA, alignment, VTF and azimuth.

Effischer is also correct about VTF as directly noted above and one thing that is not often realized is that unipivots with underslung counterweights like the VPI arm will tend to over-read VTF unless it is read EXACTLY at record height, which is why VPI in the past often recommended VTF at the highest recommended manufacturer setting or even slightly above.

So Scooby, if you are using a typical digital stylus force gauge with a platform that might be even 2-3 mm above actual record height, which is not much, the read you would get with that gauge would potentially be .2 to .3 grams HIGHER than the actual VTF.

So if you were using a fairly standard Canrong type gauge on your VPI and setting VTF at 1.3 , your actual VTF was probably closer to 1.1 which could have resulted in mistracking, poor sound quality etc. If you're using that kind of gauge and are set at 1.8, you're real VTF is probably closer to 1.6.

The article from TNT Audio linked to below discusses the mis-read; it is generally inconsequential with many arms, but with the VPI (or as I said earlier any unipivot with an underslung counterweight) it is a very big deal that can cause a lot of people grief.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/in_balance_e.html

@scooby2do - In my previous post I mentioned that the top of the cartridge should be parallel to the playing surface to achieve the correct SRA

How do you accomplish that?

Some arms - like the rega has a tapered arm tube, so setting the arm parallel to the playing surface could be slightly inaccurate.

Take a look at this link and then scroll down to "Setting VTA" - it shows a little device I made to accomplish this - cost about $5 :-)
http://image99.net/blog/files/04fdba8476cfd21bdd7a5fdf38c8cdf5-28.html

Hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction

Regards - Steve

willewonka- So after you set the pin to the height of the front you move it to the back and back and forth until they match (same height at both ends, then it should be level (i.e. parallel to the record) at which time you can make your up or down adjustments. Sounds easy enough, thanks for the tip, I'm sure I have stuff lying around to make something that simple. This is what I attempted to do and you are right doing it by eye balling it is not easy. I wish I had a way to add your micrometer adjustment feature (I have two that I haven't used for years)

scooby2do 0cleeds- read the article above provided by willewonka from soundsmith. It states that they think you should start with the tone arm is to be placed parallel to the record surface. Is that not 90 degrees? ... I have no problem attempting a different method if it can give me better results

I'm familiar with phono cartridge set up so I'm sorry, but you're confused. A parallel arm will not give you a 90-degree VTA. It should result in your VTA being around 15 to 20 degrees.

I've previously explained what I think is the best approach to phono cartridge alignment. Start with tools that align the actual cantilever/stylus, such as the Mint or WallyTractor devices. Use a VTA gauge to actually measure the VTA. Then, make final adjustments by ear.

@scooby2do ...

So after you set the pin to the height of the front you move it to the back and back and forth until they match (same height at both ends, then it should be level (i.e. parallel to the record) at which time you can make your up or down adjustments.

Yep - you got the idea.

I did look at some of the commercially available products and they all had their drawbacks, especially when it comes to cartridges with angled sides/ends

The only Cartridge this device cannot align with any precision is the angled Ortofon cartridges that have the "drooped snout" look - but then they tend to use a non tapered arm tube, so that can be used to gauge the level.

Good luck with the setup - keep us posted as to your progress

Cheers - Steve

FWIW, Linda Ronstadt's 'Hasten Down The Wind' album is a classic example of the singer being lost in the mix.  The musicians completely overwhelm her voice.  I thought it was maybe a pressing mistake, so I sprung for a half-speed Master.  Money well wasted.  Her voice is still buried by the band.  My opinion is that some mixers/engineers simply didn't have a clue or were too high when they made an album.  Others had their act together and put out a well balanced sound.

I've tried equalization and other electronic compensations in the past, but the results were not satisfactory.  If the source material isn't good, I just don't listen to it any more.  BTW, I'm pretty finicky about VTA, VTF, and anti-skating, so those have already been considered.

just my $0.02