Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?


Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.

For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.

Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.

If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.

So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?

IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.

Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!

I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.

Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.

I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).

I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:

over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.

Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).

I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.

First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.

Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.

Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.

When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).

I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.

Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.

So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.

All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.

I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!

You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.

All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.

Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:

first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.

we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.

we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).

I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.

I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.

I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.

Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.

I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.

All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.

Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.

Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.

Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs.
Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.

I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft.
All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm.
Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.

Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.

What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.

The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.

This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.

Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””

Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!

There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for.
These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.

Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones

I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.

If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:

Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.

There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.

The other ones are very good too but less refined ones.
I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers.
I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.

What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.

Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.

Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.

I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Ag insider logo xs@2xrauliruegas
Dear Maxson: In the sample on your link ( thank you again ) what it is totally sure is that 47k on load impedance that it is the manufacturer advise is almost out of question, I wonder why the manufacturer of that Shure MM cartridge ( like almost any one else MM manufacturers. ) gives that cartridge operation specs.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Dear Lawrence: Thank you for the link, a learning one.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Hey Raul

your welcome I have 4 of the MA 2002e cartridges these are very problem little buggers on works almost correctly the other 3 have major problems I am going to disect the bad one and see what makes it tick....

anyone here have experience with fixing these cartridges?

Lawrence
Dear Lawrence: Which kind of problem have with those cartridges?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
bad channel or channels one channel puts out more voltage then the other etc....

Lawrence

Raul if you would please email me @ used-hifi@comcast.net
having just installed Micro Acoustics 630MP I can say this cartridge is very special indeed.
Jlovey,

I think that it will be difficult to find such a cartridge. The key reasons are that they have many 'different' presentations and that these will be reflected differently in different systems and in light of different listening expectations. I certainly enjoy my Nagaoka more than my MC2 Finish. Obviously, YMMV!;~)
Dear Jloveys: A hard call not only because the Allaerts MC2 Finish Gold is a remarkable performer but because any one of us have different music sound priorities and it is almost impossible that anyone of us already hear/heard all the cartridges out there.

I own/owned several cartridges and heard/hear additional ones in other people audio systems.
I could think that if Allaerts top of the line is the Formula 1 then this one could be beter performer than the MC2 Finish but I don't know because that one I never hear it.

I like a lot the MC2 Finish and I can live ( easy ) with it all my audio life but certainly there are IMHO some other cartridges that overall even it and others that could beat it. Everything the same ( in no order and in my audio system ) come to my mind : Colibri ( very low output ), Ortofon 7500, Lyra Olimpos, XV-1, Ikeda REX9, FR 702, Technics 305, Signet TK10ML-MK2, Audio Technica ATML 180, Goldbug Brier, Ortofon M20 FL/E Super, B&O MMC 1/2, Sonus Dimension 5, Technics 205MK4, AKG P8E, ADC TRX 1/2, Empire 999/1000 ZE/X, Stanton LZS 981, Grado Amber The Tribute.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Dear Siniy123: Yes the 630 is very good and a top contender.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Dear Jloveys: When I say " everything the same ", this include that the MM cartridges are loaded at 100kOhms/150pf, not at 47kOhms.
I forgot the Nagaoka MP50-Super is a top contender too against the great MC2 Finish Gold.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Dear Jloveys: Over the time of this thread I receive several emails telling me that they alredy test/try a MM cartridge that I name here and they like it but think that are not really better than their MC they own.

I agree with almost all them because almost no one of them can load the MM cartridges in their systems at 75-100kOhms so they are not really hearing what those MM cartridges can " show " and from that point of view are in disadvantage against the MC ones.

The other very important factor is the quality performance of the MM phono stage.

Till today the analog high-end source was/is the MC cartridges, almost all the high-end manufacturers put their best on the MC stage and almost no one ( even there are phono stages that does not accept MM cartridges. ) cares about MM cartridges.

I posted ( trying to give you an answer ) " everything the same ", that betwen other things means that both: MM and MC phono stages have the same quality level.
Maybe you could think that the quality level of your phono stage is the same running MM than MC cartridge and maybe it is in that way but normally it is not, IMHO the manufacturers design for the MC needs that are different than the MM needs ( again here the MM carridges could be in disadvantage too. ), fortunately I have two separate phono stages dedicated one for MM and the other to MC and IMHO at the same quality level, this permit not only to evaluate the quality performance of different cartridge design but to enjoy both " worlds ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Dear Raul : for the Nagaoka MP 50 MM cartridge I use a dedicated MM phonopreamp GSP Revelation SS 47K load, maybe the 100K load makes the whole difference ? The LOMC phonopreamp I use with the Finish has no MM option.
How difficult is it to upgrade an 47K to 100K MM phonopreamp?
Thank you.
Jean.
Dear Jean: That depend on the phono stage design. Usually it is a resistor at the input, if this is the case then changing that resistor ( solder it ) fro the right one is all about. Sometimes it is not easy or the phono stage can't perform optimally, depends on the circuit design.

Always is advisory to contact directly to the manufacturer looking for its support.

Btw, yes the load impedance/capacitance makes a difference.

Nice to see that you own a MM cartridge, which tonearm are you using?.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
MM system: TD 124 MK2 / SME 3009 2 / MP 50 / Graham Slee Revelation
MC system: VPI Twin TNT/ Phantom 2 / Finish / Tron Seven LOMC.
The MM system is quite new for me since my mother just gave it to me one month ago. I listened to my first Beatles records on that Thorens when I was 10 years old ! I am back to vinyl since 4 years, I am 52 and try to build SOTA analog rig, as you know, than a month ago I listened to the old TD 124 as it is with the original Shure M-95 ED and I was amazed by the sound. So I decided to keep the vintage rig as close as original because every part was voiced around MM cartridges and make an MM system out of it, with upgrades that might finaly compete with my MC system.The TD 124 will be Shopper modded and slate replinthed,recabled SME 3009 rebuild, and following your advices for the phonopreamp. The Nagaoka MP 50 I bought recently on this thread avdice is on Nagaoka Magnesium headshell, is more detailled than the Shure, but the vintage Shure is so silky sweet sounding that it makes me think that every part of this system was voiced together for the best in 1966 with that era engineering maestria !
Thank you for this thread Raul.
Jean.
Dear Jean: Well those TD124 are legendary ( as that Shure cartridge ) and with the up-date that you make seems to me something special. Good to know that you are enjoying the MM alternative too.

Now, there is a very god alternative where you can use your MC system with a top MM cartridge, try to find the Stanton LZS 981, this cartridge is very low output ( near the MC2 Finish ) and must be running in a MC phn stage, I'm loading mine at 100 Ohms but you can use a different load between 100-500 Ohms. With this cartridge option you can compare your Allaert one and a MM design in the same analog rig.

Btw, the Astatic MF-100 is another top contender.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Dear Jean: I don't have a source about. Time to time could be a ppear on Ebay. Other similar cartridge is the Pickering XSV 7500 .

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Raul, maybe you can tell us the story of how the MC cartridges "won" over the MM cartridges and why in the minds of most vinyl aficionados MC cartridges are superior to the MM's? Are those classic MC cartridges like the Kiseki Lapis Lazuli, various models from Koetsu and Fidelity Research really that good and are they still that good even by today's standards? It reminds me of another non audiophile story: did you know that in the 19th century salmon didn't have the exclusivity that the fish enjoys nowadays but was rather a "poor man's" tidbit?

Chris
Raul,

You are absolutely correct with your assessment of MM cartridges. Recently I sent my London Decca Jubilee($3000 USD) off for repair and installed an original NOS 1980's Garrott Bros. P77 that I bought on Ebay for $130 after reading about your findings. Wow is all I can say! It is a very neutral and natural sounding cartridge that reminds me of listening to magnetic tape in a recording studio. Not quite as detailed and exciting as the Decca, but something that I could live with easily.

I did want to ask you about the loading of MM cartridges. You mentioned loading at 100k ohms instead of 47k. Does this mean you added a 100k ohms resister to a phono stage already configured for 47k which combined = 32k ohms, or does it need to be at 100k ohms actual value? I think I will start out with the Y-adapter method before changing things around in my phono stage(which is factory set at 47k).

Thanks again for all your efforts and sharing it with the rest of us. You are a true maverick in the analog world(IMHO of course).

Best,
Steve
Dear Steve: In my case my Phonolinepreamplifier comes with the option to 100K. The total impedance value has to be 100K.

Btw, I really think that the MM option is very good and worth to try it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Regarding the efficacy of loading MM cartridges at around 100K ohms instead of 47K, I discovered this myself many years ago by accident. (I soldered in the wrong resistor; when I then replaced the 100K one with a 47K one, the sound was definitely not as good.) A few years later I converted to an MC cartridge and forgot all about my finding. I thought at the time that it was some special quality of the particular cartridge I was using (maybe a Grado TLZ) and the preamp, etc. It is interesting to learn from Raul's much more vast experience that this appears to be a general fact of life for MMs. I wonder why this is so. One would not think that the difference in R at these high values, where the cartridge is essentially unloaded in both cases, would do much. Maybe it has something to do with the capacitance of the loading as well. Quien sabe?
Dear Chris: I really don't know ( for sure ) how the MC " won " over the MM.

I can tell you what were my experiences and what I " think " about:

the very first time that I heard a MC cartridge was the Denon 103 and what I remember about is that its quality performance was better than the MM quality performance ( on those time audio systems, including mine ), the "big " difference was that the 103 (and latter the 303 and many others ) was " alive " against the little " softer " MM sound, it was better at frequency extremes and that " alive " sound really like me and in those times I don't have ( either ) the right audio system and the know-how to " tweak " the MM cartridge set-up to make this one a better performer.

Then I start to read the " underground " magazines (Stereophile and the like ) where the reviewers already had a " cult " for the MC cartridges ( a very special for the Koetsu ) and where almost all those reviewers ( like today ones ) own/owned MC cartridges but no MM cartridges ( maybe two or three of them use MM ones, like today ).

I don't know for other people but in those times for me the very high price of the MC cartridges told me ( a mistake ), due to my non-experience, that it must be the best cartridges out there where the low price MM ones does not have a place on the " high end " niche of market.
You know, if you wanted to belong to the high-end community you must own/owned a MC cartridge!!!!!, period.

Many myths surrounded the MC cartridges makes with no precise/absolute arguments that the MC ones are the " best ".

Chris, I remember 3-4 years ago ( maybe more ) when I " speak " about MM cartridges and or DD TTs that the people in this forum and in other non Agon forums " laughing " about.
IMHO the today non-sense cult for the MC cartridges, BD TTs or tube designs tell us what " ignorance /non-know how " can makes in favor or against audio items, many people does not want " to see " other alternatives: why?, this is something out of my mind because it suppose that all of us want to grow-up and looking for a better audio system quality performance but we don't take a chance to " try/test " a different alternative even if that alternative can/could be better.
Gentlemans, we not only have to grow-up but we have to be better over the time, we need to help the high end to quality improvements and we all customers have the key to do it.
For many many years you and me were " manipulated " on purpose or not on purpose for magazines, reviewers, audio dealers, audio manufacturers, etc, etc, I think that sooner or latter we must to stop all them.
The most important " opinion " of what we customers needs is our " opinion " not the other " opinions ". We have to try to even our opinion to all those other audo market opinions.

Many people say that I'm " dogmatic " and I think that I'm dogmatic in almost the same way they are but on different subjects.

The high-end cartridge market is so MC oriented that are top phono stages names that are exclusive to MC cartridges and they don't give you a MM option!!!!!

is better the MC design over the MM one?, IMHO I think that both designs are really good if we have the right phono stage, in the right anolog rig with the right set-up.

I think that we have to have both options. The MM option is so good that many people in the high-end are loosing not only the pleasure to enjoy the MM option but are loosing that great opportunity at a price level that is incredible low and are missing the opportunity to have a " new " ( really new ) great analog experience. I'm talking here with everything the same to both designs: MC and MM.
I'm sure that many of you ( if give you the chance ) will be prefering the MM alternative.

About your question on those " old " MC ones against the today MCs I can tell you that some of those " old " cartridges are ( at least ) at the same top level than the " today " ones in either design:MC/MM.

Well, Chris I have to stop because this post put me a little " angry " of what is happening in our beloved high end.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Sometimes it is good to ventilate your anger or frustration Raul. I think this forum is a good place to do. I have to say that in spite of your "highly charged emotional state" (or perhaps I should rather say because of that) we still can learn a lot from you. So I would say: go ahead and spit it out! We like it!

Chris
I'm now listening to Technics EPC-205CIIL cartridge. Sounds incredible. Strange, but I've never seen MM cartridge with such low DC resistance of 30 Ohm.
Dear Hxt1: Surprising good!!!!even that my sample is new and needs more playing hours, it even easy the V15V for a lot less money, I like it ( the 100K load impedance is a must with the 97. )

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Dear Raul,

I am new to the world of moving magnets but wouldn't mind trying them out. I know there are always variables, but what do you notice for sonic differences in your system when comparing the ATML-150, Shure M97, and Nagaoka MP50?

Do you need to increase the imput impedance to 100K for all three of these cartridges? In case it helps you to know I am using the Artemis Labs Ph-1 which has input impedance of 47.5K

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.
raul, how do I change impedance loading? I have a bottlehead seduction at the moment, but I also have a solid state phono that I am not using...
Dear Hxtl: Normally the phono stages comes with 47K on default impedance so we have to add or change the input resistor to achieve 100K. The effort is worth it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Dear Siniy123: From the Technics 205 series I own the 205CMK4 and like you I can say: sounds incredible.

The other MM cartridge that I know with a low internal DC resistance is the Stanton 981 LZS: 3 Ohms!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
jumping on at the end here.
recently i got a Decca jubilee MM and its does what my zu 102 denon mono does with punch and fat directness where the sound starts at the speakers surface in stead from inside the speakers.
but the decca has a reality and life likeness and has a naturalness that i didn't know i was missing.
its like opening a window.
also its quick and sharp and like cd where you don't think you are missing a note, but the Decca is alive and the cd isn't.

Dear Acee: +++++ " but the Decca is alive and the cd isn't. " +++++

big difference. The Decca cartridges are truly special ones, I'm looking for it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Dear Raul,

Do you have an opinion on the sonic characteristic differences between the ATML-150, Shure 97, and the Nagaoka MP50?

Also, I'm wondering if you feel that all moving magnets need a 100K load or just certain ones.

Thank you for your contributions.
Dear No regrets: Sorry for the delay. IMHO and with the ones that I already try/test it all them benefit from the 100K load impedance along a low total capacitance ( 100-150 pf ). You can run the MP-50 at 47K and sounds good but example the 97 at 47K is a poor performer against it self at 100K

Now, those cartridges that you name it are different between them.
The MP-50 and the AT are more similar in its presentation and the main difference is that the tonal balance in the MP-50 has better equilibrium and natural behavior, the At is a little on the bright side and not so good on the low end frequency.
The 97 is very good for 60.00, easy listening but still not close to the MP-50. This one is a " sophisticated/aristocrat " performer against the more " urban " 97 one, even that the Shure is well balanced ( btw, I like it more with the " brush " out. ).

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Dear Raul,

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us. You are a great asset to the forum.
thanks Raul, I'm going to dig out that 97 and see what all the fuss is about!
Raul,

I've jsut ordered an Empire 999 XE/X and an Empire 1000 ZE/X. I'll try to post my impressions once they've arrived and I've familiarized myself sufficiently to form a useful opinion.

Cheers

Dgob
Dear Dgob: I own the 999 ve/x and a 1000 stylus that I can use on it. I don't test it yet in either way.
As a fact I have several cartridges that I don't have the time ( yet ) to test it, right now due that I'm in deep on the tonearm finish tests I don't have enough time to do it.

I will report too when already tested.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
To my surprise Ortofon M20FL Super is indeed a very good magically sounding cartridge.
Dear Siniy123: Yes, just first rate and the 20E too. Nice to " see/read " that some one else confirm my appreciation on it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
raul.
Dear Raul,

I got the Empire 999 XE/X and an Empire 1000 ZE/X. The latter is said to have been their top cartridge for that generation and I've decided to do my testing on that one. I also got an original unused (NOS) Empire stylus for the 1000 ZE/X and have just commenced auditions. Strangely, switching from my Nagaoka MP-50 to the Empire has reaped widely varying results with different mats on my Acoustic Signature Mambo.

Will speak more when I know more

Cheers

Dgob
Dear Dgob: Thank you for your time and support on the subject.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Hi Raul, can you tell me more about the astatic cartridges? I recently picked up an Astatic MF-100 and the MF-400. Can you tell me the differences between them? TIA
I own the Astatic MF-100 and have a copy the spec here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7794685@N03/3352033169/

I don't know about MF400, but I guess that it might probably have an elliptical or spherical stylus and/or probably not a nude one. I'm basing it on the fact that MF300 has an elliptical on from www.cartridgedb.com
Dear Genesis: Well, those cartridges are at the MF Astatic series " extremes " where the MF-100 is the top of the line and the MF-400 the lower model.

Both cartridges " prefer " over 70K on load impedance and no more than 150pf of total capacitance.

The MF-100, even for today quality performance cartridges standards, is a very good performer and not so easy to beat. It is a very high compliance ( 50cu ) where the MF-400 is " only " 35cu. The balance, frequency response and separaion on those cartridges are really different, even its VTF: 1.25 for the 100 and 2.0grs on the 400.
The spherical MF-400 is totally different from the Shibata ( type )-parabolic stylus in a tapered cantilever that use the MF-100.

I can tell you that if your MF-100 is in good operation condition then you are so lucky to own it, congratulations.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Dear Siny123: In those times Astatic had a lower cartridge model than the MF-400: the IM10E, this cartridge does not used the moving flux principle than the MF series.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Thanks Guys. You have been great help. Yes my MF-100 is in nice shape with box etc. Listening to it on my SP10 mk2/EPA100. Yes, @1.25g, I can see that it is a very high compliance cartridge. Just got the MF-400 and using it on a Denon DP-59L tracking @ 2.0g. Both sound really good.

Raul, can you tell me what damping setting on the EPA100 for the MF-100?

Thnaks
Dear Genesis: Normaly we can use the 4-5 position but it is important too to mate the MF-100 with the right headshell, well is almost impossible to find the right/perfect one but at least try with two-three different headshells and see which one works in that set up with your own priorities.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
I tried a couple of the vintage mm cartridges Rual mentioned on this thread.All were used with my Lenco with PTP3 toplate mounted in a slate plinth with a Technics EPA 500/501H tonearm.I tried the Empire EDR 9 and 600LAc.Technics 205CIIL,205CII and a Signet TK9E. I ordered a TKN10ML-III stylus to try with the Signet,didnt receive it yet.They all sound better than I expected.I like the Signet best with my system followed by the Technics 205CIIL and 205cII.The EDR9 has a realy nice midrange but I couldnt get the highs to sound as clean as the Signet and Technics cartriges.The 600LAC sounds nice to but i liked the others better.I bought all these carts for less than I paid for a nice Mc cartridge.Thank's Rual for reccommended these mm cartridges.