Timel, Where are you located? Indiana? We had snow this morning and then torrential cold rain ever since. Yuk. But my wife and I just went out and had a fabulous French dinner in Georgetown to celebrate our anniversary. Hooray for us.
The pages you cite do not address the issue of shape, except to say that panel thickness of a given material affects resonant frequency, inversely. But the assumption is that the shape is that of a homogeneously flat panel. Shape is what I am interested in. |
Regards, Lew: Western Ky. Sometime today I'll clear the 6' drifts from the driveway & re-engage with civilization. Meanwhile music has been good. Have been watching the gauges, beginning to *imagine* an association between humidity & level of (this) listener's involvement. Congratulations to you & Mrs. M on your anniversary. :) The majority of information concerning resonance (that I've found) is largely oriented to the realm of either physics or architecture resulting in analogies rather than conclusions. If considering acrylic, a couple of DIY plinths illustrating application: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=405770: Peace, |
I would never do a plinth in acrylic. The genesis of my interest in this arcane subject is that Clearaudio once made the claim that their pure acrylic plinth had favorable resonance characteristics (the definition of which could be almost anything any audiophile wants it to be), because of its piano-like shape per se. And, as I noted, they have since abandoned this selling point entirely in that their most recent generation plinths are in essence rectangular and use materials of several different types in order to achieve CLD. I always wondered whether their earlier claim for their pure acrylic plinth had any merit. It does seem to me that a highly irregular 3D shaped object made of a single pure material might (or might not) ameliorate resonant peaks just due to shape, but I know of no theory that treats this subject. |
Hello Timeltel, i think Kentucky and area got blasted with snow weeks before we did here in Canada, well where I am anyway. Regarding plinth material I helped out on a few projects the most recent were two VPI tables, one a TNT 4 and a Superscoutmaster both belt drive. The factory plinths and feet were discarded and replaced with two layers of 30 mm thick B25 Panzerholz laminated together in combination with Newplast plasticine as damping test done on that stuff on Audioqualia site. This elevated the performance of these tables according to the owners especially notable was the superscout master which may erk me to find a used one to modify, but I have to directly compare to my tables before committing, this winter.
So one alternative material that is high lighted on Audioqualia site. I don't know what type of panzerholz Albert Porter uses for his plinths but he was willing to spend 10 times the amount for this alternative material after experimenting with other material. Timeltel this spring I will have some more b25 panzerholz if your interested in installing your Pioneer dd table and arm in some.
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How about we start the New Year off with a horror story with a happy ending! Of the 2 Virtuoso's that I own, the Black with the Sound Smith's cantilever/stylus is the one kept in rotation. The original Red Wood with factory stylus/cantilever has been occupying shelf storage space. I discovered early on that its stylus guard also fits the Signet TK10 MKII cartridge in which I bought guard less. The TK10 also is kept in rotation so I have been storing the Red Wood guard less. Well a couple of months ago, while fumbling around looking for something on the shelf (wearing a sweater), somehow the bare stylus caught on my sweater sleeve and was flung across the room, bouncing off the far wall. After staring in disbelief, the only word that came to mind was S**T. I should of ordered a spare guard. Well, a few weeks ago, when my wife asked me what I wanted for Christmas, my quick reply was a Jico/Shibata stylus. After explaining to her what the hell I was talking about, one got ordered. To make this long story somewhat shorter, it has been received and the necessary trimming of the stylus housing has been accomplished and said stylus/plug installed. Well, upon first listen, I was not impressed. Thin, bass shy presentation. I tore everything down and reinstall/adjusted everything, No change. My first thought was surely Clear Audio didn't voice this cartridge to work only with the cheap ($33 at LPtunes), AT 95e stylus ! Perhaps, letting it run in for a few hours might change things. High hopes I did not have. Well, it didn't take a few hours, but only a few sides of record playing. I've never had a cartridge change so dramatically. Day/Night difference. It will be a few days before I get to compare it to my other Wood (the Sound Smith version). I can say that I am impressed with the added midrange clarity that is now quite noticeable. The Jico was money well spent, but not an operation for the faint of heart. I had considered transplanting the cheap AT95e for practice, but if "smart" was something I practiced, I would have bought a stylus guard many months ago. Thanks to all that brought this stylus/plug transplant to our attention. Fun exercise. Updates to follow. Regards, Don |
Regards, In_Shore: I've a JVC TT-71 deck on the back burner, have been giving consideration to matching it up with a MS-505(S) TA which gets good ratings from several trustworthy A'goners. Also have a spare EPA-B500 (base) with choice of either the curved 250 or straight 500H wands. Should you have Panzerholst remnants available this spring, please give me a reminder. The Pioneer PL-70L-11 http://audio-database.com/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/player/pl-70lii-e.html is in excellent condition. Have both straight & curved pipes, a treat to both eye & ear. Best wishes for the new year & Peace, |
Lewm . My two cents worth. I have been building TTs for over 30 years now. Some have been disastrous and some ok and only a few were good Plinth materials have been. Slate, concrete, aluminum, MDF, hardboard and finally acrylic using lead in a CLD laminate. Both acrylic and lead get bad press. This is in my view not justified provided they are applied correctly. If you bond acrylic to lead with a hard exoxy glue the resultant laminate has most interesting properties. One test I conducted during my research into plinth materials was to tap the plinth with a pencil and listen to the plate with a stethoscope. All of the materials were glued to lead and then subject to this test. The concrete slate and aluminum still rang slightly. The MDF and Hardboard gave a slurred sound indicating a smearing effect. The acrylic gave a short, sharp and loud tic. It took me some time to appreciate what this meant. The conclusion is that there is minimal storage of energy " short, sharp" and that it conducts this energy quickly " loud tic" The trick is to glue with a hard epoxy. I adjusted the Hardner ratio to get a material that was the same hardness as acrylic. In this way the acrylic is effectively fused to the lead. Lossy, soft glues were disastrous. Listening tests were conducted in a search for the material that gave the maximum difference between LPs. Since each LP sounds different, by definition, greater audibility of these differences implies less coloration of the TT itself. The second and probably most important test was to listen for a connection to the music. Did I connect with the musicians, how did it make me feel. Again Acrylic lead scored the highest by these two metrics
I have not tried panzerholst but can report that Albert Porter gets excellent results with his highly engineered plinths.
Regarding material shape, I have no scientific input on that interesting question. The triangular shape chosen was to facilitate the three feet whilst almost eliminating any part of the plinth from being cantilevered outside of these feet. This approach seemed to be logical. That said it may be wrong regarding resonance control. I also find it pleasing on the eye. An agreeable byproduct. |
Regards Griffithds, I was reading a thread on Karma and someone asked LpGear/tunes if their Vivid line replacement stylus was made by Jico. Their reply was, it is not. These ATN95 styli also do not appear on Jico's site. There was some conjecture about the identity of the maker(s), but no conclusion. Of the available styli suitable for replacement or transplant, the ATN7V is quite good. Cu is nearly identical and nude .2 x .7 elliptical performs well, good detail if not as sweet as the shibata. Quality control on the replacements isn't perfect. Of the 2 examples of shibata I bought, one was better. I suspect you got a good one. Regards,
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Hi Fleib, Your comments are one of the underlying reasons I bought mine from TurntableNeedles.com. Their add states Jico manufactured. Actually never had a problem with either suppliers but truth in advertising being what it is, well, stated Jico, I went with them. I had taken notes from some of your statements pertaining to this transplant and did have on my list a ATN7V. Now that I have done this opperation, I just might do a 152LP that I have lying around next. Maybe my 440MLa (also not being used). This just might be fun. You are one of the people I must thank for leading the way in this transplant. Thank You! Regards, Don |
Dear Richard, Your research in the area of plinth design and construction dwarfs my own very limited experiences. It seems that I am doomed to be misunderstood here; I meant no slur on acrylic in my previous post. I only meant to say that it is not acrylic per se that I wonder about but merely what is the effect of shape, assuming a plinth made of any homogeneous material. Since acrylic lends itself to shaping perhaps better than most other commonly used materials (wood, slate, lead, granite, etc), and since Clearaudio in fact used acrylic, the discussion happens to center on the use of acrylic.
As to your other experience, I often wonder whether tapping on the plinth tells us anything at all about its goodness as a plinth. But I have very firmly come to think, like you, that combining two or more materials in layers, so as to affect CLD, is the way to go. I was very happy with my all-slate plinths for a long time until I had a carpenter make me a baltic birch and cherry base for my Mk3 slate plinth. I then affixed the wood base firmly to the bottom of the slate, using 5 or 6 large diameter bolts threaded into inserts that I epoxy'd into the bottom of the slate, after drilling holes for the inserts. I then bolted the Mk3 chassis thru both layers, using very long metric screws (the total plinth is now nearly 6 inches thick). The result is a huge improvement vs slate alone, in terms of total "neutrality" (the holy grail). (Using also Albert's idea of the bolt that engages the bottom of the bearing housing so to transmit vibrational energy to a large brass block mounted below the chassis. Albert uses brass bolt/iron block. I use brass with brass.)
As to what materials sound good, I only know that MDF sucks. |
Lew, while I can't offer any commentary re how the shape of a material might affect it's sound (resonance characteristics) in a turntable plinth application, I can tell you that the shape of the material is an important consideration for musical instrument makers. I see no reason why some of the same principles would not apply. I am not talking about the shape of, for instance, the bore of wind instruments or the shape of the resonating cavity of string instruments. In those examples we have a case of a vibrating column of air and it is much easier to understand (and is well documented) how altering the shape of the cavity created by same materials of the same mass would affect it's resonance. Take the case of a clarinet barrel. The clarinet barrel is the small piece of tubing that is found between the mouthpiece and the upper of the two main, and larger, parts of the clarinet. It is a kind of interface between the mouthpiece and the main body of the instrument and is most directly affected by the reed's vibrations. There are two design parameters that have the most profound effect on the response/sound of the barrel, the shape of the bore and the shape of the barrel itself. The impact of these two parameters in design choice are at least as significant as the choice of material. You can have a barrel that looks like this: http://backunmusical.com/product/fatboy-barrels/which has the exact bore taper and dimensions, and uses the exact amount of material as one that looks like this: http://backunmusical.com/product/moba-barrels/and they will each have entirely different response characteristics and sound. Barrels are typically constructed of various types of wood such as cocobolo, rosewood or grenadilla, hard rubber, plastic, or metal. It is surprising how small the differences in sound are between the different materials compared to the differences due to the shape used. I think that it is entirely plausible that the shape of a piece of metal or acrylic (homogenous) would have a significant effect on the way that it resonates due to externally (ambient) and internally (motor) caused vibrations in a plinth application. |
Lewm - you should probably start with another thread on plinth shape. If you are embarking on a new plinth you should really start with a comprehensive project definition listing your requirements. What are you trying to achieve, what are the deliverables. For example the plinth requirement for a vintage idler, which has more shake rattle and roll than Elvis' hips, in my mind would be vastly different than for say a Direct Drive turntable, most of which the motors are mounted in a resonant pudding bowl. The resonances generated by each drive system would be quite different. Do you want a dead plinth ? Do you want a plinth that deals with the vibration & resonance of your particular TT motor drive ? These could yield radically different results depending on your goals. What arm and cartridge are you going to use ? What are their resonant characteristics and grounding requirements ? Does the intended tonearm use dampening or does it require energy to to dealt with by the plinth ? What are you going to place your TT on ? Wall shelf ? Stand ? What type of stand ? What materials ? Even if we assume Richards solution is nigh on perfect, the resultant structure will still have fundamental resonances and at some point at least one will be increased in amplitude relative to the initial impact. But what would your fundamental resonant peak requirement be ? Assuming it is in the musical bandwidth - then where ? What is going to do the least damage to the music ? Most of the plinths built are tone controls, a cacophany of complementary colorations that 'sounds better because I spent so many months & $ building it' it IS better. Did you strip off the wood from the slate to check what had been traded off for the gains you heard ? As I said above start by writing down a list of your requirements, then let's debate that, before we start on materials & shape. You might like to engage your local university or technical college, where with Fourier Analysis software quite commonly available you might find a student interested in taking up your question and doing some modelling for you. Ideally they may have measuring gear that can determine the resonances inherent in the TT drive system to start with.
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Mainly for Raul, My friend....I propose that you need to do ABA type of evaluation for those fuses or any other audio comparison.... along with putting some time in between like live with it for a month then go back to your original fuses or what have you... and redo your evaluation...also your music selection is bogus thats a studio recording! WTF?!
Raul my friend you seem to want to get to audio nirvana (like live music) but you have done no comparo testing as in ABA
I will say that i am sure i am much younger then you and have a better audio memory and hearing or at least we maybe on the same level but my point is... irrational quick decision making is non productive...maybe if you like to play with your audio components and get yourself off....... but IMO you will never get anywhere.....
my reasons for saying this is depending on the time of year time of day your mood etc....you need to average it out in a much longer evaluation
now i Know there is no absolutes in audio but personally if I am going to spend time and read your postings please write something worth reading...IMO your getting audio goofy on me...
and for Christ sakes get some good non molested live music for your comparisons patrica barber?! Really!!!
Lawrence Musical Arts |
Hi Don, LOL the one I didn't like came from TTNeedles. The good one came from LpGear. I suspect they were from the same mfg. They looked identical. I doubt if Jico makes them exclusively for others, while they don't sell them themselves. Who knows?
If you check the bottom of the cart of the 120/440 series, against the 3400 (95, CA) series, you'll see that the cantilever angle is a little different. If you have 2 respective plugs with stylus and compare them, it's easy to see. An alum cantilever can be bent down slightly to work in the 95 plug, but beryllium and boron tend to break. Isn't the 152LP beryllium? If so, I hope you have better luck than I had. Maybe I'm just getting too old, but I broke a beryllium and a boron trying to transplant from a 120 series to a 95 plug. One of them was an irreplaceable 152MLP. Such is life. Regards, |
Dear Dover,It is an old tradition to try to nail subject matters with categories or classifications. Those however are verbal and belong as such to language. The other part is called 'reference' while the aim is to point to the so called 'reality'. We need both to discovere the truth. Well the reality is that among others our Lew is unbelievable eloquent and even more inquisitive. Why should he split his curiosity in different threads? I enjoy reading his post and prefer the same place or thread to find them. I am sure some other members will agree with me but, of course, not everyone. Those however can chose among many other threads to satisfy their 'categorical needs'.
Regards, |
Well then the answer to Lewm's question is yes - shape will affect resonance. You can mathematically model a proposed shape using fourier analysis, but the traditional method of measuring resonance is the use of accelerometers to measure the resonances induced by applying a frequency sweep to the item to be measured at multiple points. The pencil & ear test does not really do much here as I would surmise that it is checking the dampening behaviour at 1 frequency point only for the particular mass, size and shape of both the pencil and the sample material tested. The "sound" of the tap will vary with the positioning of the "tap" on an irregular structure as well. Of course if you add feet - 3 or 4 - then you have built a trampoline and the resonances induced will be quite different to no feet, or varying the location of the feet. The more complex the shape the more nodes there will be that need to be factored into the calculations. A concave plinth will have more nodes and the maths will be more complex than a flat plinth for example.
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Dear Dover, I have no problem at all to admit that I was wrong. Anyway if math. is involved I usualy skip the whole subject matter. And I just started to like you. How about 'Fourier analysis' as a separate-separate thread?
Regards, |
Richardkrebs you may find Audioqualia.uk is up your alley so to speak, I believe the owners name is Richard also. A few years ago I sent him damping material to test and post results on his site, however you will have to contact him as I have no idea if he still does this for experimenters. Personally I like my own plinths with pivoting arm boards using solid bronze , high grade stainless steel or panzerholz. I liked the ease of direct comparisons between tables using any particular arm and cartridge that I have, sometimes with surprising results.,...Dover owns a very interesting table I would love to see and hear in action if I ever get to his beautiful country for a holiday, of course only by invitation.
Another problem then trying to tame resonance you don't read too much about and virtually every turntable manufacture but only one from the past ignores is off centre spindle holes in our records, anyone remember a product from the 1980s called Center-A-Disc?
Timeltel
the Micro Seiki 505s arm is a real pleasure to use and to look at, the factory head shell the first hole closes to the tube sets pivot to spindle distance just set it over the spindle, the last hole for over hang, but I would order a Mint Trctor. The other adjustments are equally fine to use. My last remnant slabs of B-25panzerholz went all the way to southern California, the shipping cost was scary,but if your still interested by the spring Kentucky is much,much closer.This material is quite good with a well thought out design, off the shelf material is no contender. |
Hi all, Does anybody owns the Stanton TH 981 ? I just got one. The prefix 'TH' refer to Thorens and means or imply that Stanton made his 981 HZS for Thorens. As far as I know the only Thorens worth mentioning were those which were sold without the tonearm. Anyway the celibration data included by this cart are:
Tracking : 100 microns with 1 1/4 gr.; Channel sep. : 35 dB ; D.C. Resistance: 626 Ohms; Inductance : 308 mH; Vertical compl.: 30 mm/Newton Output : 1.01 mV
I hope someone who owns the 981 HZS will compare those data and report about possible differences.
This cart was designed as an improvement on the 881S and I compared them. While the 881 S is a very good cart the 981 is much better. If the primary reason is the new cantilever and stylus ( I have read this assumption somewhere) then we should elaborate on the so called 'aluminum cantilever' first. This means in my logic 'aluminum is not aluminum'. Axel mentioned to me that those aluminum cantilevers differ in 'quality' but was not specific in any way. I heard about 'aluminum alloy' but never what is mixed with aluminum to get whatever aluminum alloy. Looks to me something for our Professor, Fleib and Dover to enlighten us.
Regards, |
Hi Fleib,
LPGear is in my understanding, the US distributor for Jico. Do you think Jico grades their stylus (grade 1,2,3,), then ships to LPGear? They (LPGear),then distributes to say TurntableNeedles and others, keeping the grades 1 for their own sale. Sounds like a good business decision to me. What you experienced kind of proves it. I think I'm going to start making all my Jico buys confined to just LPGear or Jico direct! The Beryllium cantilever is my favorite and what I would like to install in a Virtuoso. What that cantilever (with shibata tip), did to my Goldring G800 still to this day has me absolutely stunned! I haven't intended to cut up the housing of either of the previous mentioned stylus (152LP or 440MLa), but do a transplant to a much cheaper AT95e (LPGear $33), green in color housing in which I would cut up to fit into the Virtuoso. I understand it to have the screw for stylus removal. I've experienced far to many bend stylus by accidents. I have no desire to start bending them on purpose. I remember reading somewhere that during the removal of a Boron or Beryllium cantilever, that just the backing off of the screw, shattered the cantilever so I'm a little nervous about this! Considering your past experience and knowledge in this process, If you have additional or corrective input, it would be much appreciated. Thanks again Fleib for opening my eyes and ears to a this new experience! Best of Regards, Don |
Dear Nikola, The 980 hzs shows:
Tracking : 3/4 to 1.5grams channel sep :35 db D.C. Resistance : 850 ohms Inductance : 450 mh Compliance : ? Output : 0.8mv |
Dear Acman, According to the calibration data sheet each cart is individualy calibrated so the info provided by a cart appllies specificaly to the measured cart. By my specimen the vertical compliance is 30 mm/ Newton as I already mentioned. The discrepancy with your specimen is the resistance : 850 Ohm versus 626 Ohm (my specimen); Inductance 450 mH versus 308 mH (my specimen) and output 0.8 mV versus 1.01 mV (my specimen). So there are some obviuos 'deviations' between the two but I have no idea how important those are. There are much more difficulties by the so called 'identity relationship' while my quess is that the cause are the names and not the objects themself.
Regards, |
In_shore. Thank you for the contact. I will see if I can track Richard down. I have found damping to be a Pandora's box. It needs to be applied judicially. It is so easy to go too far. Yes I agree that there are many other materials of merit to choose from for plinths and arm boards. I would add to your list some of the zinc alloys, and even bamboo composite. The fun of all this, and our hobby as a whole, is that there are many roads to enlightenment. I think we should celebrate that. |
I think there is probably something wrong with your cartridge. You better send it to Texas to be checked out.
The 980 is uncalibrated. Also the output is .8 mv/cm/sec. I did not have to turn the volume up to get proper sound. Let us know how it compares to your LP s. |
Dear Acman, There may be something wrong with your cart. Why should you assume that your cart is ok and my 'wrong'? Both are individualy measured with explicite mentioning that those measurements apply only to the carts by which the data are provided. 'The 980 is uncalibrated' according to you but I don't see any relevance of this statement for our two specimens because both have calibrated data sheets. Anyway you are nearer to Texas than I.
Regards, |
It seems I should have used a smiley face. I live in Texas and I was kidding you about sending your better specced cartridge to me for a listen. The 980 HZS has a generic sheet of specs,As I gave them to you. It is not individually calibrated.
Sorry for the confusion. :) |
On the usaudiomart.com web site there is a Virtuoso Wood with a slightly bend stylus for sale. Concidering how easy and cheap ($33), to actually get a replacement stylus, the asking price of $250 seems down right cheap. If I didn't already own 2, you would of never seen this HEADS UP! |
Dear Acman, If I understand you well you actually wanted my 981 in Texas in order to switch your 980 for my calibrated 981 ? OK but what kind of compensation do you have in mind? |
Dear Nikola, I am fine as is, but thanks for the offer. The Santon 980/981 is great. When I was told it was better than than the 881s I knew I would like it, but never dreamed it was this much better. I hope you enjoy your new find. Let us know what you think about your Th 981. |
Hi Acman3 and Balkin comrade!
Never heard of the Th 981? Surprised at amount of difference between the your 2 cartridges numbers! I didn't know/realize actual readings could be "that" amount of difference. Regards, Don |
Dover, Frogman, others. Thanks for your thoughtful and informative remarks about shape. I think it is a given that shape (and mass) affects resonant frequency. Now the question is whether there is some shape for a given homogeneous composition that will have a flatter/broader resonant peak when excited, as compared to some other shape? For example, I can envision that an irregular polygon might do better than a sphere in such a test, because the waves of energy will be more randomly be dissipated as they reach boundaries (in this case, the boundary between the acrylic object and air), for the latter shape vs the former. I just want to know whether Clearaudio's claim for their former acrylic plinths could have any merit.
And no no no no, I never want to build another plinth in this lifetime.
And it's fair to say that the subject is OT. I apologize to anyone who finds it distracting or beside the point. By now, I feel like we are all old friends; we can sit around and shoot the shit about anything related to audio without busting a gasket. |
Hello Don, I recommend AGAINST transplanting the 152LP. That's how I broke my 152MLP. Beryllium is even more brittle than boron and a small amount of bending is required. The 120 series plug, to which the 152 belongs has the cantilever exiting at a slightly different angle than the 3400 series plug, to which the 95/CA belongs. I suggest sticking with aluminum cantilevers for transplant. If you're looking for an interesting candidate for your ATN152LP, LpGear imports the AT-100E. This is a normally Japan only cart. It is a lightweight like the 440, but the generator has identical specs as the 150MLX. It comes with a cheap bonded stylus but I'm told that the 120 series fits. Inductance is an admirable 350mH, and I believe DC resistance is 800, and impedance is 2.3K. Also uses PC/OCC wire - $90.
Yes, LpGear is authorized dealer for AT and Jico. I think they supply TT-Needles and possibly others, with product. Needles might have bought up a lot of old Pfanstiehl stock, they use their numbering system. Once I ordered a stylus from LpGear and the return address was NY. Needles is in Brooklyn so I assume they have a working relationship. I don't think Jico even makes these or they would sell them too, which they don't. Quality seems pretty consistent, maybe the cantilever was slightly twisted on the one that didn't sound as good. Glad to be of assistance. Regards, |
Hi Fleib,
If the slight difference in cantilever angle was quantified, lets say 2 degrees positive, could you instead of bending the cantilever, just place a thin, very thin tapered wedge on top of the cartridge body at installation to the tone arm/headshell/arm wand? Wedge could be made from ebony, lead, carbon fiber or whatever to satisfy resonance questions. Would not a tone arm with VTA adjustment on the fly (like my Graham 2.2), be able to do the same thing? If we are talkin slight angle adjustment of the cantilever, seems to me that this method would be a simple answer. Perhaps I'm not mentally seeing something? Regards, Don
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Regards, Nandric: The Washington Monument was begun in 1848 but funds ran out and it lay partially completed through the American Civil War. A radical group calling themselves the "Know-Nothings" assumed the project, funded by selling inscribed stones which were then incorporated in the monument's construction. These can be observed from the stairs inside. Little progress was made so after four years Congress rescinded the "Know-Nothings" permission and for 22 years there was no further progress towards completion. Congress then appropriated funds for resumption of construction. The project was completed in 1884, the year in which the cap was hoisted to the top. Aluminum was used for the pinnacle, this because at that date aluminum was rarer, and more precious, than gold.
"Fun" facts: Aluminum is pure to 4n's in it's most highly refined commercially available form. There are 1,475 listed alloys, the most frequent are alloys of magnesium and silica. In electricronic applications, gold, iridium and palladium. There are two broad categories: Heat treatable and Non-heat treatable. Heat treatable alloys can be wrought, others must be cast or machined. Annealing involves heating to a critical temperature, then cooling. The speed at which a metal is cooled determines it's malleability relative to brittleness, or temper. Strain tempering involves a 5% deformation between the steps of heating and cooling, all of which dictate the quality of tempering.
Aluminum can also be anodized, an electro-chemical process resulting in an oxidized surface tougher than the base material. I'm unaware of spluttering or vapor depositing applications, perhaps due to either the relatively low melting temperature of aluminum, or possibly it simply serves no purpose..
These precesses determine the mass, Young's modulus and for our purposes, vibrational or resonant characteristics of the material. Dynamic and static damping then become considerations. To the audiophile, the required degree of control in producing a good quality cantilever also results in a cost/weight factor comparable to that of the pyramidical cap on the Washington Monument.
Dynamic damping determines "compliance". Static damping has the effect of spreading vibrational discontinuities over several elements and allows a smoothing of harmonic formation and growth. This effects a vibrational control which balances characteristic harmonic slopes relative to output impedance, if anyone (Fleib? Lew?) can describe this more succinctly or provide more specific information it would be appreciated.
Peace, |
Don, the problem with a transplanted cantilever (120 series to 3400 series), isn't just SRA angle, it's clearance of the bottom of the cart. If you want an exotic cantilever on your Virtuoso, I suggest sending it to Axel or Soundsmith. It's unfortunate, but there are no factory 3400 series high end styli available. I would go for beryllium/Gyger, but I suspect ruby/micro - Soundsmith level 3, would also be excellent. Regards, |
Regards, Griffithds: Relating to the AT/CA cartridges, a 2* change in cantilever angle, 20* to 22* (for instance) may result in the V-magnets changing their relation to the pole pieces by the same degree. Shimming a cart, although a good idea, is an external adaptation and will not influence the internal magnet/pole relationship. Just a thought.
Peace, |
Thanks Fleib, I don't mean to be a pest over this. This angle difference must be far greater than I have been mentally picturing it. You still have given me additional options with your previous sugestions. Thanks again, over and out!
Best of Regards, Don |
Nandric, Timeltel, As I understand it, compliance is a measure of springiness, and static or dynamic is measured in standardized units (cu) as the names imply, stationary or tracking. Things like rigidity, length, and VTF would all be determining factors. I think damping would be a secondary factor limiting the amplitude of excursions.
Regards, |
Tom,
"Just a thought." Yea, and a very good one! Thanks to both you and Fleib. I'm not interested in having someone else change the Virtuoso. I wanted to do this myself. Yea, a fool and his money are soon parted but sometimes that's how we learn. Asking questions and having people like you two also contributes. Thanks. Regards, Don |
Dear comrade Don, Richardkrebs mentioned 'Pandoras box' while I know no better exampel than the identity relation. What the logicians actually mean and need are the corefering names such that whatever is true about, say, Vienna is also true about Wien, Wenen, Bec, etc. They need this to make sense of substitution while quantification and substitution go hand in hand. But what about the real objects? I am not very fond of Wittgenstein but admire this statement of his: 'for two objects to say that they are identical make no sense and for one to say that it is identical with itsself says nothing'. Well Acman fooled us both by substituting his 980 for my 981. Something like 'John owns the same dog as Peter'. You are wondering about the 'real thing' because of the 'measured' discrepanties . However measured (aka celibrated) is my 981 but not his 980. I understand the wish of the owners of the 980 to be identical with the 981 but this also apply to desire to winn the lottery. The dog which is meant by John and Peter is not the same dog but the same kind of dog, say, a poodle. In this sense Acman owns an MM cart. BTW you overlooked even the difference between the number 980 and 981.
Regards, |
Dear Professor, 'Ask the professor' is a very understandable question. The problem is what to do with the answer. I have read somewhere that matalurgy is more an art than science. But 1.475 registered alloys is not what I anticipated as your answer. Because of the name my son was asked at school if he speaks Serbo-Croatian. He was very disturbed to admit that he does not. In Holland the kids always ask: 'who is this guy' refering to their own dad. So probable the native languge they speak should be called the 'mother tongue'. Despite of this fact I was very suprised when my son asked me to theach him Serbo-Croatian in the weekend such that he would be able to demonstrate his new languge at school on Monday. I started with what I thought was a very smart and funny 'definition' aka 'aluminum is not aluminum'. But my intention, which was not hampered by any knowledge, was to get some explantion about 'our own' aluminum cantilevers. Beside I want toknow why I should pay 350 Euro to Axel for one kind instead of 100 Euro for one other? I feel now like my son but he was then 6 years old.
Regards, |
Regards, Nikola: "What to do with it?" LOL :)--- Walter Stanton's original profession was metallurgy in the aeronautical industry. He was reputed to be extremely secretive concerning the alloys used in Stanton cantilevers. A measure, it is said, to prevent his competitors from copying his designs.
Not being privy to the recipe of W. O. Stanton's concoctions, there's no concise answer available to me. Possibly the answer can be found in Arthur C Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". So there you have it. Pixie dust. For his fiddle playing English associate, Pickering dust.
"If you keep your mind sufficiently open, people will throw a lot of rubbish into it". --William Orton
Sincere best wishes (all) for the coming year &
Peace, |
Dear Nandric, It was explained to me that a 981 is a 980 with a matched stylus, and therefore worthy of calibration. The 980 I have is my first Stanton, so I'm no expert. Electrical parameters between 2 examples of 980, 981 should be within tolerances. I think you might have a somewhat different, and possibly superior cartridge.
Regards, |
Dear Nandric, I was aware that the Stanton 891 was calibrated and the 890 was not. Like Don, I was not aware in the differences in specs. between the two. If I had I would not have answered your question and "fooled" you into thinking I wanted your dog. Live and learn.
Sorry again for any confusion. |
Acman3I was not aware in the differences in specs. between the two. If I had I would not have answered your question and "fooled" you into thinking I wanted your dog. Live and learn.
Sorry again for any confusion. Dog Definition. Feet (My dogs are throbbing!) Friends (I'm hangin' with my dogs tonight.) Food (Get me two dogs and small fries.) Insult/Humiliate (Oh, you just dogged him!) B.S./Lie/Cut short (Why you doggin me?) Good worker (He works like a dog.) Bad sports performance (I played like a dog.) Euphemism (Dog it!!!) Chauvanist/immature/singleminded (No class, he's such a dog!) Any male in general (Where the dogs at?) Going through the motions (Stop dogging it, you are here to work!) An interjection (Aw, dog!; Doooooog!!!!) Animal – mans best friend AND TO KEEP WITH THE THEME OF THIS THREAD. Badly aligned MM cartridge – (that sounds like a dog to me.......) Hope all you dogs have a Happy New Year ......... |
Regards Fleib: Blame it on Raul. Comments concerning "Distortion" led to an interest in vibrational/harmonic disturbances and ultimately (don't tell Raul) a general agreement with his assessment. (As there are distinct types of distortion, I do wish he'd be a little more specific). ;)
Anyway, this led to the following quote, the source identified only as: Release 13.0 - © 2010 SAS IP, Inc. All rights reserved.
"The (static damping) procedure is to introduce a damping force which is proportional to the nodal velocities and which is aimed to critically damp the lowest mode of oscillation---. "The solution is then computed in time in the normal manner until it converges to an equilibrium state. The user is required to judge when the equilibrium state is achieved."
This refers to "critical damping", a state in which under/overshoot or ringing do not exist. For a scientific analysis with formulae bearing a resemblance to the writings in the movie "Alien", the last sentence, essentially a disclaimer, does stand out.
Fleib, you are correct. Although there may be a relationship between damping and compliance, these are distinct and the terms should not be confused. Like Dover's "abattoir", knowing when to split hares is a good thing.
Great discussions going on, pleased to see mention of bamboo. Currently contemplating sorbothane supported laminated bamboo panels with my "ringy" subs spiked to them. Considering the 170 yr. old platform framed/soft pine floors in my wreck of a home, raising/isolating the subs will be an informative experiment.
(Griffithds: Don, if neither cantilever is curved, an assembly transplanted to the correct plug MAY function as intended. As mentioned, just a thought. In this, Fleib is da' man.)
Peace, |
Dear Fleib, 'the 981 IS a 980 with a matched stylus'... The 'is' in your statement suggest the identity relation between the two except for the stylus. But from my and Acmans post from 12-29-12 it is obvious that there are other differences which have no connection with the stylus whatever because the stylus was not even mentioned by us. I deed not quote all the measured data but only 3 of them. By all 3 of them there were differences between his and my cart. By dismissing those differences as 'unimportant' you can't produce identity relation between them. By identity relation all the 'qualities' must be the same while any difference imply the opposite. I learned from Frege to be very careful with words and more in particular sentence constructions with the connective 'IS' which has 4 different logical readings.Frege warned about common language traps and I must confess to have had my own hesitation because of the signs:'TH 981' looks different as '981 HZS'. But what is the relation or connection with the 'real things'? The signs are about the language the real things are not. When we compare two carts we are not I hope involved in some linguistic analysis but with the 'real things'. Or so I thought.
Regards, |
Hello Nandric, Another possibility is that you have a unique dog. If Don or Raul would check their Stanton 981 HZS calibrated specs. , we will know. The chart I am referencing says it is for both the 980/981 carts.
A Stanton made for Thorens with different specs.? Anyone ever hear of this? |
Nandric, That's what I'm suggesting as well - a different cart or a variant. I never heard of a T designation on a 980/981 Stanton. I suspect you have a model custom made for Thorens, just like a Grado, S-smith, or Benz made for VPI. The specs indicate it's not exactly the same model. You might have a rare and wonderful cart. How does it sound?
Regards,
|
Acman3 & Comrade Nikola,
I only have spec. sheets for my LZS. I bought the HZS used and it didn't come with anything but the stylus guard! From my Stanton Cartridge Specifications page, Tracking range---.75-1.5 Channel seperation 35db DC Resistance 535 Ohms Inductance 400 mH Output .8 mV Nandric, the specs. for the cartridge just mentioned are much closer to what you have stated. The cartridge the specs. I have just listed are from a Stanton 500EE MKII from their Broadcast series. Nandric, how sure are you that it is even a 981. Have you varied that it is even a M/M and not a M/I. |