Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.
For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.
Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.
If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.
So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?
IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.
Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!
I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.
Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.
I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).
I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:
over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.
Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).
I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges. The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.
First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.
Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.
Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!
Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.
When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).
I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.
Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.
So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.
All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.
I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!
You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.
All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.
Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:
first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.
we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.
we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).
I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.
I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.
I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.
Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.
I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.
All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.
Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.
Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.
Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs. Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.
I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft. All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm. Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.
Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.
What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.
The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!
IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.
This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.
Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””
Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!
There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for. These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.
Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones
I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.
If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:
Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.
There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.
The other ones are very good too but less refined ones. I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers. I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.
What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.
Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.
Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.
I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.
Are you aware of the low inductance MM cartridges?
It slows transient speed. And the loose suspension used allows for a form of frequency-modulated (FM) distortion as the stylus is pulled forward by the vinyl groove.
Find yourself a decent MM cartridge first, i believe you judge the MM cartridges by 30 years old memories, not today's experience with some of the best MM like the Audio-Technica AT-ML180 LC-OFC discovered in this thread long time ago by a group of audiophiles with some amazing LOMC in their arsenal.
MC types are largely free of these two problems!
There are many problems with MC cartridges and Peter Ledermann will explain you better in this video: https://youtu.be/F65mODzn4Gk The reason why his own cartridges are MI, not MC
Chakster, Are you sure about the diameter of .035mm (millimeters)? That is very very very tiny and would be very fragile
Yes, i'm sure, this is exactly the same cryo copper wire you will find in the coil of your ZYX Universe (and other ZYX cartridges). You can simply check the manual. They are fragile and there is a warning sticked with a good advice not to open cpp-1, but i had to just to replace the expired batteries inside this device.
High inductance of MM's coils is the culprit. It slows transient speed. And the loose suspension used allows for a form of frequency-modulated (FM) distortion as the stylus is pulled forward by the vinyl groove. MC types are largely free of these two problems!
Dear @halcro : I always say ignorance/knowledge levels in each one of us is what is behind our posts. As higher ignorance levels as worst the information we are spreading here/there and elsewhere and these facts makes a lot of damage to the new comers in analog and even to other low knowledge levels audiophiles.
I’m in agreement on your post but you have to remember that in the " old " thread years I was not an enthusiast to make changes/switch in between two cartridge models and certainly not to retip it. Hot discussions about that, that was the past. Unfortunatelly always are " audiophiles " that just nor learn, pity.
But through the time I learned and I know today that you and the other gentlemans were all rigth with those " Frankestein " or with the Jico SAS improvement and not only that but that I learned that the main importance in any cartridge is precesily the cartridge motor.
Lyra is a good example of that: the Lyra Kleos and the Atlas shares the same main motor design with variations on that design and obviously in the normal variriations on other parts as coild wire or cantilever/stylus or output level but the motor stays there but at different price point/market. I owned the Lyra Clavis DC that used a cerraloy cantilever ( ceramic alloy ) and was more or less good but when I changed that cantilever for Boron the change makes a huge difference putting at other quality level. I know very well the Titan and Titan i and I bougth the Kleos looking for something as the Titan but was and is totally different because is a new motor design and I was thinking that nothing could outperform it till I listen the Etna SL and the Atlas pinacle of that design technology.
If we own good cartridge motors then we can make that that good cartridge converts in an " outstanding " one with new cantilever/stylus shape/dampers and suspension fine tunning.
I use the JICO SAS with Shure and Garrot cartridges and agree with you about and that agreement confirms what I’m saying.
Btw, thank’s to brougth here the JVC 4MD-20X, this week I will post my first hand experiences with.
Btw, first hand experiences is part of the name of the game in audio.
Chakster, Are you sure about the diameter of .035mm (millimeters)? That is very very very tiny and would be very fragile. It's also thinner than even 40ga wire. I think there IS in fact copper wire that thin available from Japan; it is or was sold here in the US by Michael Percy Audio. I have to check my facts on that; I am going only on a dim memory of M Percy's catalog.
So I would guess that if those are resistors in your photo, Chakster, they are probably 100 ohms, not 47K ohms. Have you measured the DCR across those coils? From their mounting near to the input jacks and now realizing that the ZYX is an active step-up device, I guess they could be resistors. (I was aware that ZYX makes this product, but I guess I thought it was some sort of SUT.) But if you can measure DCR across one of them, that would be fun. Also, since they are simply coils, I do not understand readily why they are not also inductive. To make a non-inductive resistor out of wire, the winding is the key.
Personally i’m not against SUT, i have phono stage with built-in Lundahl SUTs, also i have Toroidal Silver SUT as a separate unit, but ZYX Pre-Preamp is something special for some cartridges for sure (not for all cartridges) and that’s the reason Arthur Salvatore compared it to the best SUTs ever made (in his opinion). http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Step-ups.html
I am posting info about ZYX Headamp because its design is special (look at those resistors), but you guys are still repeating same mantra all the time. I think i am more open minded at least.
Now i have new phono stage with high gain. I just need more time and more experience with different MC cartridges. But decent vintage MM cartridges are simply better than most of the MC i have tried so far. Practically they are better, they are neutral, white the some MC are colored and requires all that additional devices such as SUTs, Headamps etc (also re-tipping process etc).
Playback should not use the same machanism as Cutter Head, as far as i know Allnic Puritas MC looks exactly like Cutter Head, but who cares ? How many people on here using Allnic Puritas MC cartridge? http://allnicaudio.com/?page_id=1254 Why it's not the best MC ever if it was made like the cutter head then ?
Thank you nandric! I was just stating a principal fact from Physics. As stated previously I prefer an SUT for use with mc cartridges - rather than an active gain stage. Lower noise floor. And consider the fact that all those beloved LPs have been made from master lacquers made on a cutting lathe using MOVING COIL cutter heads! So playback should use the same mechanism!
''strongly '' believes in resistors made from ''pure copper'' Lew
stated that he will need so much wire that those would impossible
fit in his ''beloved'' phono-pre. To put this otherwise ''facts don't
care what we believe''.
Fact is what i see inside my ZYX CPP-1 pre-preamp which i own and use, Lewis does not have this device, you too. If you have not seen yet an input resistors made by ZYX of pure copper coil wire then all you need is to look at my picture. Take in count that ZYX Cryo Copper wire is just about 0.035mm in diameter. What you see is two coils with this tyni pure copper wire and this is what Nakatsuka-San use as his special input resistors. I hope i've been able to spread the light on this technology a little bit. And i will be happy to read comments from technically advanced members.
I for one, understand Chakster's philosophy in only collecting 'original' manufacture's vintage cartridge models...and applaud him for it 👏 In a way....it is the only correct methodology in accurately commenting on a particular cartridge's 'sound' and attributes (ignoring any long-term deterioration or abuse). As he rightly claims.....if a vintage cartridge has been "refreshed", re-tipped or has a 'rogue' stylus assembly inserted.....who can validly state that another example of the same cartridge will sound identical? Chakster's 'hard-line' protocols has its mirror-image in the vintage car and watch markets where 'originality' is favoured over 'restoration' and where aging patina and unpolished cases (in the watch market) are prized over restoration and replacement, even if performed by the original manufacturer....
Whilst admiring Chakster's viewpoint, and well-researched knowledge....I however, have different priorities in my vintage cartridge collection. We both hold firm views that the vintage cartridges produced in 'The Golden Age' of analogue....the '70s and '80s...are simply better than those produced today. This applies to both MM and MC designs IMO... My aim, is to discover the very best cartridges ever made... And my experiences have shown, that many vintage designs can be improved upon by the replacement of the stylus or stylus/cantilever assembly. From the basic Signet range of cartridges.... the lowly and cheap AM-10 is transformed with the insertion of the Line-Contact on Beryllium AT155Lc stylus assembly as is the cheap AT-13Ea cartridge. From there, the Signet TK-3 and TK-5 are similarly improved with the insertion of the AT155Lc. My three Victor Z1 cartridges were improved with the Jico SAS stylus assembly as was the Shure V15/III but the most dramatic change was effected on the Garrott P77 (which Chakster rates as one of his favourite vintage MM designs). I have three original Garrott P77 cartridges, all bought directly from John and Brian Garrott with two of them having re-tips done by Brian. Whilst having a seductive analogue richness in their delivery....the highs and detail-delivery could not compete with the best designs (both vintage and modern). This was completely transformed with the insertion of the Jico SAS stylus assembly and if Chakster were to hear this on his own P77...perhaps his views may change a little?
Regardless of our divergences in philosophy....I respect the purity of the vintage 'flame' that Chackster holds high and look to him as a learned barometer of vintage cartridge design and worthiness 😎
Micro MAX tonearm is very expensive these days, but not everyone is fascinated about it as much as Raul. Here is what @opus111 posted in Micro Seiki thread not so long ago about this tonearm:
Is this a joke? Having owned 1500, 5000, and 8000 I am a MS fan but the 237 and 282 arms are by far the most overrated tonearms of all time, and nowhere near the level of their better turntables. They sound thin, sterile, and downright unmusical. A cheap Rega 250 sounds better...far better
Dear @lewm: The MAX-237 comes with low effective mass arm wand and is superb. Two other great low effective mass tonearms that you or any one can find out easily comes from the Audio Technica group ( AT/Signet. ), I owned and can attest its very high quality performance/excecution:
these are true low effective mass designs: 5grs. and 6grs. respectively. Almost nothing can competes with. The bearing friction is as low as only 4mg that's even better than the EPA100MK2 ! ! There is a second model in the Signet line the XK50 that's similar to the AT 1100.
@jeff1225 @secretguy : that cartridge comparisons was really a hard task for the reviewers not only because so many cartridges under test but because they tested 20 diferent performance quality characteristics, not only 3 or four but 20.
NAndric, 160 parts for one tonearm or one part for 160 tonearms? If the former, it’s hard to imagine that the arm could have been produced for any less money than the new SAT tonearm.
The "problem" with the ADC XLMs, for me, was their very very high compliance. Unless you have a very light tonearm to go with, the suspension tends to bottom out at any slight provocation, like a minor warp or an underdamped cuing device. I was constantly worrying that I had broken mine. The Infinity Black Widow was a good companion tonearm for the XLMs. I think also M-S made a very light CF tonearm. And was there also an Audio Technica tonearm with very low effective mass?
Black Widow is problematic, the build quality is not very good, the carbon armtube is fragile. There is another arm with carbon armtube - Stax UA-7, but i never tried it.
But in my opinion the best "answer" to the Black Widow is Luxman TA-1 tonearm made by Micro Seiki. This arm has removable armtube and heavy tonearm stabilizer. Look at this picture of Luxman TA-1. This is actually an image (of my tonearm) made by previous user. Great inexpensive tonearm with low effective moving mass for high and super high compliance cartridges, i think the estimate price is under $750, so it can compete with Victor UA-7045 which is also great arm for high compliance cartridges. Since it was made by MICRO the quality is much better compared to Black Widow. Stanton CS-100 WOS and Grado Signature XTZ are great on this Luxman TA-1 tonearm (I know you have both of these excellent high compliance cartridges). Luxman TA-1 with removable armtube and heavy stabilizer is quite rare, there was a cheaper/different version supplied with Luxman turntables.
Dear @jeff1225 @secretguy: In a very long cartridge comparisons chart ( over 100+ ) mde it by those old times reviewers the DC LM 3 ws rnked as: excellent, the top ranking. In that comparison you can find almost all MM mnufacturers.
I own -3 XLM samples and obviously time to listen it.
I’m curious about SONY XL50 laminate core Moving Magnet Cartridge with Boron Pipe cantilever. Made by Sony Sound Tec. corporation in 1981 (the price at that time was ¥ 25,000). There is a Delta sign Δ around the cartridge in the catalog and inside the manual you will find that it’s for a "Jointless Delta-type Core". A very commom meaning, specially for capital delta Δ ( a triangle) is difference, so what does it mean?
Has anyone tried it ???
********************* features *************************************
*The Jointless delta-type core
Δ
, a design unique to Sony.
*Boron Pipe cantilever is lightweight and extremely rigid. Distortion caused by flex is virtually eliminated.
Der @jeff1225 : I never tested or listened in my system. The Golden U is the one to go in that old ADC series that what has in common is a really high output level that goes from 6.1mv to over 8mv.
The U model comes with a very good elliptical stylus tip but I can't say nothing about its quality performance.
ADC Astrion is a waste of money, after many years of discovering so many NICE vintage MM cartridges in this thread someone decided to go back to the mediocre cartridge from the first page of the thread ! Hey, everything ok?
Dear @lewm : Pritchard was a believer of very high compliance design to improve tracking abilities and lowering distortions. The targets has good foundation.
In the rigth/mtched tonearm the DC are very good performers.
As you I have many many years with out touching an ADC/Sonus cartridge but that will change because are in my re-listen list.
I want to listen the JVC 4MD-20X but my 981HZ/Pickering just don't let me to do it because with my up-dated system it's a wonderful sound what is achiving through it. I'm sure that your today well dampened 981LZ is very good performer too, I will try with mine too.
@lewm I'm not fully accustomed for what I listen in my system today, almost everyday i swithch on I try to hear something through the speaker tweeters ( efficiency 95-96 db. ) and is just dead silenc and dead silence no matter what: if I switch on first the phonolinepreamp than the amps or the other way around and at full volume. I had several experiences about in many audio systems top systems and never experienced something like that. As a fact the first thing I do when listening for the first time n audio system is to approach the near I cn to the high frequency drivers and till today always hear/sense " something ".
nyway, for me it's time to re-listen my crtridges nd listen too for the first time some of them like the JVC.
The "problem" with the ADC XLMs, for me, was their very very high compliance. Unless you have a very light tonearm to go with, the suspension tends to bottom out at any slight provocation, like a minor warp or an underdamped cuing device. I was constantly worrying that I had broken mine. The Infinity Black Widow was a good companion tonearm for the XLMs. I think also M-S made a very light CF tonearm. And was there also an Audio Technica tonearm with very low effective mass? And while time does tend to shroud vintage gear in a romantic haze, I really would not put the XLMs up there with the best I have ever heard. Maybe if I ran one on my current system, I would re-assess.
The more audiophile knowledge ( vintage audiophiles. ) goes with two of the best Pritchard ever designs that I own too; ADC Astrion and the Sonus Dimension 5.
ADC Astrion is not a Pritchard’s design, this cartridge was made after Pritchard left the company. Nothing special in my opinion, it has sapphire cantilever, but the sound is nothing special. Bought my NOS unit from KAB (he had many for $150), this is a mediorce cartridge, compared to many other killer vintage MM (especially the Japanese).
Sonus Dimension 5 is a very rare model, Sonus Gold and Sonus Blue are often available for sale, but the Dimension 5 rarely turns up for sale. Very High compliance cartridge for SUPER LIGHTWEIGHT TONEARMS ONLY!
The best Stanton is definitely Collector’s Series 100, signature model of Walter O. Stanton (CS 100), belong to the best MM ever. One of the most involving sounding cartridge for everyday use! It has Stereohedron II stylus and Sapphire-coated cantilever which looks like Ruby (It’s Red). Here is the picture of my manual for this beauty: https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/38476991_2373978225953664_3615805771045928960_n.jpg?_n...
Dear friends: For some reasons through the thread years almost all of us were " concentrated/focus " in " only " some specific/regarded cartridges but as ADC exist several other cartridges that we have to listen or to own because is worth to do it.
As ADC and Acutex the Stanton and Pickering are cartridges that for many of us have no interest on it and I don’t know why.
Same happens with names as : Micro Acoustics, Empire other than the 4000D3, B&O that are exceptional, Sonus, Philips, VDH, Nagatron, Azden or Elac between others.
All those cartridge names deserves our attention and never is to late try to find out some of them, I’m sure any of you will be satisfied with its quality level performance.
Maybe is time for you to re-start the cartridge hunting and for me to listen to all those cartridges I still own.
Dear @secretguy: Well, trhough this long thread and over the years I posted more than once about ADC Pritchard designs. Till today I never listened an ADC cartridge that performs bad.
The XLM is very good and I own its MK3 version as the ZLM too, both a must to have. The more audiophile knowledge ( vintage audiophiles. ) goes with two of the best Pritchard ever designs that I own too; ADC Astrion and the Sonus Dimension 5.
but the real ADC " losted link "/secret belongs to one of his older designs that came with 50cu ! on compliance. I'm refering to the great great quality performer the : ADC 26 with elliptical stylus tip, from the same series exist the 25 stylud tip blue dot that's elliptical too but not as smaller radius as the red dot in the 26 and the the 27 with a little lower compliance: 40cu.
The one to go is the ADC 26. I remember when I bougth it several years ago and when received I had not much good expectations on its quality performance but just from the very first moment that began to ride the LP grooves I knew that this ADC was and is something radical special one. I love this cartridge and when I bougth it the cartridge arrived not with the red dot stylus but with the blue dot and that's why I learned about and I was lucky enough to get an original new red dot replacement stylus. Even today we can find out the original red dot for around 125.00.
The ADC red dot is a must to listen it, as I said " the best close secret " in the ADC/Sonus history.
Raul, What I did with my 981LZS was to take a very small elastic band and place it around the cartridge from front to rear, such that the stylus assembly is firmly pulled back against the cartridge body. I think I even wrapped the elastic band twice around to achieve the most possible tension. That did the trick; I totally agree with you on the flimsy connection between the stylus assembly and the body on those Stantons. The elastic band effectively dampened the resulting resonance. Plus, of course, I removed the brush first of all.
Also, now that you have testified to the wonderfulness of the Acutex 320 series, maybe my constant praising of them will gain some traction with someone like Chakster, who does not take the Acutex seriously.
Dear friends: In the last 3-4 months I made two significant up-date in my audio systems, one was a major change in my phonolinepreamp and the other was in the external speaker crossovers.
When I was thinking that I have " all " in my system I was surprised for the higher level quality achieved by those changes in the system.
Then and due that my system was transformed for the better I started to listen some of my top MM cartridges and the first was the Acutex line: the M and the LPM. The models in the Acutex line that I tested ( 320/315M and 315/320LPM ) sounds really fantastic and better than ever where I confirm that the best Acutex ( by a " hair ". ) is the 320 but even the 315M outperforms the 320LPM and even my 315LPM that was " refreshed " by VDH.
After Acutex great samples I mounted my Stanton 981HZ with original Pickering similar stylus and tested against the original Stanton stylus and confirm that if we have the 981 by Stanton the best way to achieve its top quality performance level is with out the Stanton original stylus but with the similar one coming from Pickering where the stylus/cantilever holder is way less resonant than the stock Stanton stylus holder. The differences in quality performance level are not small ones but it makes a " difference " for the better not only different performance but better performance. No single Stanton model can beats my Stanton/Pickering combination, a must to have.
Of course that like in the Acutex I 'm listening how good is this Stanton 981HZ, formidable contender.
This week I will stay listening the Stanton and due the @halcro JVC findings I will switch next week to the 4MD-20X and will share my experiences with.
Dear @halcro /friends : For me it's a very good news to know about the JVC 4MD series.
I still own at least 15 cartridges that I never mounted and one of them is the 4MD-20X. Will be interesting to listen it and make some comparisons.
the 4MD-20X was made by Audio Technica for JVC and understand with beryllium cantilever, as afact the the cartridge body/top plate is similar to the 20SS. Obviously that the 4MD-20X was designed/builded to a specific market price point. Probably all the 4MD series were made it by AT that's a good " thing ".
I will share my experiences with the 20X that I own in new condition. We will see.
I've been waiting over two years for a Victor X-1 with original Shibata stylus on beryllium cantilever to come up for sale and finally found one on Japan Yahoo.....or so I thought 🤔 The giveaway should have been that I won it for $110...and when it arrived, I discovered it was the 4MD-1X (which I'd frankly never heard of). As it came with its original box and Victor headshell, I plugged it into the DV-507/II, set it up and sat down to listen..... Not a squeak....no sound at all from either channel 😱 No wonder I got it so cheaply I thought to myself.... Before trashing the thing and marking it down to 'experience', I decided to mount it on one of my own headshells (a Yamamoto wood Hs-1As) without much hope.... But joy oh joy.....👏🎶 sound.....but not JUST sound... Explosive sound....miraculous sound....sound I'd never quite heard before.... This was almost PERFECT sound....🤯 But how could this be?! A $100 MM with Shibata stylus on aluminium cantilever, with a lowish output voltage of 2mV, high compliance of 35x10-6 but a wide frequency range of 10Hz-60KHz (due to being designed for 4-channel) in a cheap plastic body..... How could this possibly be the most dynamic, exciting cartridge I have ever heard in ANY system...? I did not want to 'jump the gun' in this proclamation so I bought another one..... And then I bought a 4MD-20X which also has a Shibata and similar specs. After 6 weeks of listening to these three beauties (the 4MD-20X is not QUITE as brilliant as the 1X)....I can state that in my system, these cartridges sound better than my Garrott P77/SAS, Victor X1-IIE, Victor Z1, Victor Z1/SAS and ALL of my LOMCs.....
If you get the opportunity.....I highly recommend them.
As an update to earlier discussions of the Arcam 77 with the Jico SAS-1 stylus, a while back I tried the SAS-1 on the Shelter 201 and found a significant improvement (tho I don't recall the details of the difference now).
Since then I've been concerned about the availability of the SAS-1 as Jico hasn't sold any SAS's via the web since last year. However, I found a post on Vinyl Engine saying that the SAS-1 fit a Shure M91ED, so I figured I'd give the neo-SAS 91ED a try. It's $185 from LP Gear, which seemed decent. Good news--it fits the Shelter, and the Arcam as well. So far sound is slightly more strident than with the SAS-1, but I expect that to smooth out with break-in.
The following video interview with Ortofon's Leif Johannsen covers the design of the new Century cartridges, including the new Concorde Century starting at the 25:10 mark. He goes into some detail of its design and explains that it uses much of the technology from their 2M Bronze cartridge. Thought you'd be interested... https://youtu.be/sOw6n2OZiQ4
Mr.
Johannsen
also explained that he'e been using a SUT with his Century cartridge! This is controversal to Raul's theory, but it was the Raul who said this:
Ortofon is a total/100% of knowledge and skills at every single " sigth " surrounded its designs for it can works always in favor of MUSIC.
And Ortofon cartridge designed has been using a SUT
@nandric
Well the difference between Glanz 71 and 31 as well between Astatic 100 and 200 is only the compliance: 50x10 versus 45x10. The ''usual'' or the most tonearms are not suitable for such high compliance.
You're mixed up STATIC compliance and DYNAMIC compliance. The dynamic compliance of those cartridges is not high, BUT A MEDIUM For example the Azzurra made by Glanz has 35cu static compliance, but the dynamic compliance at 100 Hz is only 8 cu and if we will convert it to 10Hz it will be not much than 14 cu. The models you have mentioned have a bit higher dynamic compliance, but not even double compared to Azzurra, i believe under 20cu @ 10Hz This is medium compliance. No problem with tonearms for Astatic/Glanz cartridges. It is lower compliance than Grado
The disadvantages of the Concorde style cartridges is that no one can adjust them, twist them etc according to the different protractors and different tonearms without changing the pivot to spinde distande of the arm. There is no overhang settings. It is not for every tonearm, even if the mass of the arm is ok.
@rauliruegas - The following video interview with Ortofon's Leif Johannsen covers the design of the new Century cartridges, including the new Concorde Century starting at the 25:10 mark. He goes into some detail of its design and explains that it uses much of the technology from their 2M Bronze cartridge. Thought you'd be interested... https://youtu.be/sOw6n2OZiQ4
That's interesting. Will you please explain @chakster the nature of your "professional needs?"
broadcasing, radioshows, event management, djing ... since 1996 i used to run a small record shop in 1998-2000, we've been selling technics turntables and ortofon cartridges back in the days.
vintage vinyl is my passion for much longer than high-end audio equipment
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