feel free to introduce others. I will be arbitrary and cut off Conductors who worked after the death of Leonard Bernstein.
Furtwangler and Toscanini died just short of the onset of the stereo era. They were however recorded with the best technology of the times, and the work of restoration technology of today has done wonders. Walter recorded until 1962 but perhaps his best work was done in the mono era.
Walter was renowned for his “humanity” Furtwangler for his near mystical ability to rechannel German/Austrian music, and Toscanini for his finely chiseled intensity
And for just about everything he touched: Thomas Beecham
There's a story told by a well-known conductor who was rehearsing the BPO in Bruckner and just could not get them to sound the way he wanted. Suddenly, a few minutes into the problem passage, he noticed that the orchestra's performance seemed to shift into a higher, more intense gear. Surprised and confused by this sudden change, the conductor looked around to see Furtwangler standing quietly in the doorway of the auditorium.
The Russian….in their day Soviet…conductors had a reduced presence in the West. It was hard to judge some of them until they defected. They had decreased concertizing, decreased recordings (for the longest time, the only Mravinsky recordings generally available was the Tchaikovsky Symphony set). They never got to play Mahler or Bruckner. So at best I give them an incomplete.
I personally never cared for Mravinsky. He had all the warmth of a 10 year stint in the Gulag. Kondrashin and Rhazdo were more interesting to me and their legacy has grown as more material becomes available. Svetlanov could be hit or miss. I always viewed him as the Soviet Solti with lower Orchestral standards, but there are some recordings, such as the Tchaikovsky Manfred, where he hits all the buttons
Very nice all around. Your digital is top-class, very well assembled. Not familiar with your amp but your system must sound wonderful through the Quads.
I’m all tubes; Atma-sphere 30W OTL amp, Audio Note M3 preamp with phono, the AN DAC, Devore Gibbon Super 8’s. I’ll PM the details.
Edit... I just realised our virtual systems aren't displayed by way of your moniker.
@lowrider57I purchased one of the later Bryston BDP Pi transports that supports DSD 128, HDCD and PCM 24/192. My DAC is the Ayre QB9 Twenty upgraded and supports DSD 256, PCM 384 and HDCD. So I can playback DSD 128 but no higher. The Ayre QB9 original version I bought back in 2011. I remember back then, when we chatted about the Herbert von Karajan Beethoven Symphonies Japanese remasters. That was a while ago and the upgrades have kept it up to date all these years, thank you Ayre! The Bryston serves me fine now but I’d like to own the Naim streamer some day. My amp is an ASR Emitter II Exclusive and my speakers are Quad 2905’s. I use Hi Diamond interconnects and speaker cables. My USB cable is a Wireworld Platinum Starlight. Also, when I upgraded my Ayre, I was thinking that I would no longer need my Uptone Audio ISO Regen and LP1 linear power supply but I still prefer it.
How do you like your Audio Note 2.1X Signature and when did you purchase it? Everything PS Audio makes is of high quality. I’m not really familiar with the Bluesound Node2i. Please share your thoughts.
What is your digital setup that enables you to play DSD? Mine is Redbook through a PS Audio transport, Bluesound Node2i (Qobuz), to an Audio Note 2.1x Signature (24/96). Needless to say, mastering is the most important element in my playback.
@lowrider57Well regardless of the type of download you purchase, I would guess that it would still be better than waiting for a package to ship from Canada (that is if you live in the US). But I agree that based on the information, even a standard Redbook CD from this source is very promising. My own personal preferences would opt for a 24/96 file over a 24/44.1 Yeah, I've stored files on a flash drive, maybe not ideal but pretty simple nonetheless. As for my purchase, I'm still looking at the catalogue.
I've read a lot about using DSD in the mastering process and have read the reviews. The result seems to be a very high quality product, even when cut to vinyl. Regarding HDTT, these remasters are starting with presumably good quality tape transfers and will remain in the DSD domain. I expect the downloads to be of high quality and the Redbook discs to exceed the quality of the record label releases.
I could try a download to my computer, then use a thumb drive to play back through my Bluesound. My DAC is limited to 24/96, but this might be a good way to go for me.
@lowrider57Yeah, that Pristine Furtwangler certainly comes with a hefty price. About the Tape to Tape website, I have doubts that a hard copy, gold plated CD will sound equal to the DSD download as the gold CD isn’t an SACD. Some folks will say that DSD is just a shell unless it was recorded in DSD but my ears seem to tell me different, maybe it’s the filtering but who knows? I haven’t done so yet but I’m going to purchase a DSD 128 download from Tape to Tape and post my impression.
I have the M&A 1944 Eroica. This was actually my first introduction to B3, albeit on a budget lp that my older sister bought in 1972. That recording imprinted me; every other recording of the piece has never seemed as Life and Death as this one.
I did play a bit of the M&A after the last time that I listened to Pristine, and the differences weren't as significant as I thought they would be. The Pristine is preferable but I think the Fanfare reviews the Pristine regularly uses on their website doth protest a bit to much.
I actually bought the Pristine Digital Collection, and subscribe to the streaming service. If you do the latter then you get free downloads. The only problem with the streaming service is it doesn't work with most of the players that play Qobuz,Tidal, etc. You either need a computer or listen from a mobile device on the Pristine site. I use Chromecast from my phone to my Cambridge Audio streamer.
At any rate if you do the streaming service and download from their site once a month you basically have it for free, and there are enough recordings on the PA site to make it worthwhile, imo.
Speaking of Pristine Audio and wartime recordings from the Third Reich, I listened to the Walter Gieseking Beethoven Emperor recording from 1944 that was made in stereo. I had heard it previously when it was released, and aural memory is unreliable but the Pristine recording sounds amazing. btw there is a brief audible burst of antiaircraft fire
Here's an excerpt from the review on the above link:
Compared to the Music & Arts remastering that colleague Henry Fogel reviewed in 18:3, the sound here is far more natural—the frequency and dynamic ranges are opened up, and an annoying rippling sound in the background has been totally removed.
I listened to the Pristine version of Furtwängler's Beethoven no. 3 (1944) and the sound is astonishing. Going from memory, it sounds way better than Music & Arts. I assume they're the same performance. Do u know if the rest of this cycle sounds this good?
I contacted High Def Tape Transfers for some info. There are a few options for download; DSD, DXD FLAC, PCM FLAC.
Since I no longer have a computer audio setup, I asked about discs. They stopped selling Hires DVD, I doubt there was much demand. Gold Redbook CDs are the highest quality discs from the master ($25). Next, they have what is referred to as "budget CD" ($8.99).
I like that they publish details of the original recordings; ie, Szell Mahler:
Source used for Transfer: Transferred from a Columbia 4-track Tape
Recorded October 1 and 2, 1965 at Severance Hall, Cleveland, Ohio
I listened to Pristine Audio’s transfer of the wartime Furtwangler Brahms 4 last night. I think it may be from the same source as Music and Arts, as their is a fair amount of noise, like a generator hum, at the beginning that goes away about two minutes in. I’m guessing the first acetate must of have been compromised but the rest were better. The Germans were experimenting with the tape but I don’t know the origin of this recording and Pristine, contrary to their usual practice, doesn’t mention the original source.
Yes, the subject of Furtwangler’s involvement with the Nazis has been examined thoroughly and could be a thread in itself. Do you remember The Sound Of Music and how the Von Trapp family escapes Austria after the Anschlus? The real story of their escape is less prosaic but it appears as if the book for the Play/Movie borrowed a few details from Furtwangler’s bio.
@lowrider57They're located in Canada so I'd suspect they'd been obligated to pay out royalties. However copyright laws only extend to about fifty years (at least with artwork). As far as DG recordings, I would be a skeptic but who knows? It always seemed odd to me that the Archive Production (a division of DG) pressings were superior to the DG pressings.
I'm looking at buying a DSD download of Bill Evans' 'Waltz for Debbie" and if I like that, then possibly Szell/Strauss. If you order something, then please share your opinion of the quality. You can always reach me direct too. Cheers.
I'm a big fan of Brahms no. 2, but apparently the performance isn't the whole story on this disc. Thank you for adding the historical details of that night. I didn't know about this. I'll read more about it online.
Furtwängler was walking a tightrope throughout the Nazi's reign of terror.
I have the Music and Arts Brahms Furtwangler set. Great stuff. The Second is the most fascinating, if only because we now know that W.F. was slated for execution by the Gestapo after the performance. Tipped off, possibly by Albert Speer, he escaped while taking his bows during the applause, which M&A preserves…one can hear the puzzlement of the clappers as he doesn’t reappear.
@lowrider57Forgot to mention, I know of some of the Music & Arts releases but not many. I own the Lili Kraus Mozart Solo Piano Box Set and it is superb.
@lowrider57Yeah, I can recommend the d'Orfeo label in general. I was at the record store today and we were talking about the lawsuit against MOFI. The context of the discussion centered around whether all analogue remastering is actually superior to having digital somewhere in the chain and we both agreed that digital technology is a massive asset. In other words, I'm so glad that recordings from that era are now as good as they are. Also, I'm surprised that the d'Orfeo label is on Qobuz! I'm going to switch from Tidal to Qobuz.
@goofyfoot , thanks. I found it on Qobuz and it does sound very good. Listening to his Brahms no.4 right now. I have the Music & Arts Beethoven and the Bruckner, both live. I believe some of these early recordings needed to be restored so not the best quality, but historically important.
I have the Warner box. I am not saying that W.F. didn’t make studio rcordings, he made plenty of them, but most of the available recordings are either concerts or Radio Broadcasts. W.F. studio recordings are generally felt to be inferior as performances to his live concert recordings or Radio broadcasts. One of my favorite Furtwangler recordings is Bruckner Eight with the VPO from late 1944. I believe that there are at least two recordings from different days. One is the actual Radio Broadcast made with a very small audience, probably a few Nazi bigwigs, the day before the actual concert, which I believe was also recorded and subsequently both have found their way to CD. I have the one that is sans large audience and it is the most thrilling Bruckner 8 out there, and it really sounds good for that vintage. btw, the Furtwangler set to have is the DG SACD set, if you can find it.
Van Beinum--I haven’t listened to any of his recordings (except the odd bits that come on the radio) since the lp days. I believe the Eloquence Label put out a good collection recently
@mahler123I remember a number of RCA and DG studio recordings of Furtwängler. Also, Warner released the complete studio recordings and it's a 55 CD box set. I'm thinking that would include the RIAS recordings. Anyway, that seems like a good amount to me. I'm unsure as to how many live recordings there are, I was thinking not a lot. I only know of the Salzburg Festival. the Lucerne Festival and a number of radio broadcasts. I don't know anything about the Music & Arts releases.
Yes, I realize there aren't a lot of van Beinum releases. The Andante label issued a van Beinum set which very good. So what van Beinum RC recordings do you recommend?
Most of Furtwangler recordings are live concerts. He hated the studio and made relatively few recordings there relative to Stokowski and Toscanini, to cite two contemporaries of equal stature.
Van Beinum left few recordings, probably because he died relatively young
@lowrider57Here's a nice Furtwängler box set of the Vienna at the Salzburg Festival. The recordings were cleaned up. I own it and will say that it's nice being able to hear him in live performance.
It’s a little difficult for me to separate the conductor from the orchestra. Of the three choices listed by the OP I’d have to choose Furtwangler with the Vienna or Berlin. One of my all time favorites not previously mentioned is Eduard Van Beinum and the Royal Concertgebouw.
I know about Celi and his Zen Buddhism. Still, he had the power to guarantee in his will not to have recordings distributed after his death, instead of delegating that
decision to others. So my premise is that on some level he must of have cared, and wanted his performances disseminated, while simultaneously making a show of not caring.
Personally I can live without Celi. For my money he simply stretches and distorts the music until the line is unrecognizable. ymmv
His whole point was that music dependends on the acoustics of the venue which inter alia defines the tempo of individual movements and that could neither be captured nore rendered by recording. Quite the Anti Audiophile, him. He was deeply into Zen Buddhism and believed in living in the moment to create musical fulfillment. Listening to him live was special.
Most of my earliest record were Szell and Cleveland. $2.75 each at the Michigan Student union in Ann Arbor. I imbibed the Beethoven PCs, Symphonies , most of the great Richard Strauss works, the great Dvorak Symphonies. I never cared much for his Brahms, though.
Kna? those slow tempos always kind of stopped me at the gate, but some of his Wagner is pretty transcendent. Hitler is reputed to have detested Kina so that is a recommendation of sorts.
Boulez and Maazel were great Conductors, well represented in my collection. Since all their work is from the stereo era, and they haven't been passed that long, they don't seem to be historical figures to me, but depending on where someone is on the generational scale, they may appear to be Historical.
Mengelberg is an interesting choice! I recall reading somewhere that Mengelberg thought he could just make changes to Beethoven's scores because, after all, Beethoven was deaf, not to mention dead, and who would know better what would work than the conductor himself!
My choice would be Furtwangler. Just this morning we listened to his wartime live Bruckner 9th. It is driven, ferocious, and transcendent.
There is a good selection of Cantelli , both studio recordings and live concerts, on the Pristine Audio site. I particularly like the concert version of Stravinsky Chant of the Nightengale
I have only heard a few examples of him—Ein Heldenleben with the NYP and an Eroica with Amsterdam. The Eroica sounded like a little crystal meth may be been injected into proceedings.
The tempo discussions by Mahgister are interesting. I heard Ricardo Muti give a talk from the podium that must of have gone about 15 minutes before the start of a work where he essentially makes the same points. It was difficult to understand him in the large concert hall, in his mixture of Italian and English and I remember thinking wouldn’t it be great to hear him give a master class in conducting and perhaps use a few examples.
I have heard many people look at film of Furtwangler conducting, critique his beat as imprecise and approximate at best, and wonder how he achieved his results, with his supple ebb and flow. He had to be the antithesis of George Szell, about whom his players would say “Even the spontaneity is rehearsed” yet Szell was reportedly a huge admirer of both Furtwangler and Toscanini.
Guido Cantelli-protege of Toscanini who.died tragically in a plane crash in 1956. Toscanini wasn't told about it since he was frail at the time. Cantelli did make several recordings.
Erich and Carlos Kleiber-father and son, both gone now. Carlos' recordings have better sound. He didn't record a lot but his recordings of Beethoven's symphonies 5 and 7 are among the best.
Guido Cantelli-protege of Toscanini who.died tragically in a plane crash in 1956. Toscanini wasn't told about it since he was frail at the time. Cantelli did make several recordings.
Erich and Carlos Kleiber-father and son, both gone now. Carlos' recordings have better sound. He didn't record a lot but his recordings of Beethoven's symphonies 5 and 7 are among the best.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
