Who has dumped the power conditioner?

I had both a conditioner (APC) as well as a high end outlet. I found the outlet (Furetech) didn't do anything and the conditioner seemed to stifle the sound a little. I don't use either now.

I recently tried to replace my PS Quintet with the naim-recommended wiremold strip as my power seems pretty stable and I don't really need surge protection. The Quintet however rendered a fuller sound and soundfield and slightly quieter background. I ended up keeping it.

I'm happy with my dedicated lines and Transparent PowerIsolators. A 100 amp system separate from the power for the rest of the home is dedicated to the AV system. 85 feet of armored 00-gauge cooked & cryoed copper wire runs from the meter to a dedicated Square D QO Panel with switchable lightning grade surge protector. There are 5 armored 12-gauge cooked & cryoed copper wire runs from the panel: 1 for each of the mono blocks, 1 for analog components, 1 digital components and 1 for the video projector. Each circuit has a Transparent PowerIsolator between it and the components connected to that circuit. Most of the PCs are Purist Anniversary, which are much better in my system than Transparent, VD Revelation or Stealth Dream.

As far as I can tell, there is no loss of the awesome dynamics or imaging and the soundstage is wide and deep, though not as tall as I would like.

The PowerIsolators are 3 years old now, so it would not surprise me if the SR Tesla Powercell is indeed better.

Ed

Jtwrace wrote:

Very interesting...you might be onto something. I remember in the Kaiser speaker room last year at RMAF there was a power conditioner that was basically just that. He said it was the equivalent to something like 10 miles of wire inside.

Not 10 miles of wire, 10 miles of skin. The wire is but 70 cm.

Louis Motek

I got rid of my power conditioner years ago, found it robbed the music of life and dynamics. I live out in a rural area though, so that may be be why I can get away with it.--Mrmitch

Lessloss

What is "skin"?

Elizabeth, you said "I have noticed the benefit of a using a very long extension cord, as the same benefit as dedicated lines. Get a 50' extension cord 12 or 14 gauge. It will equal the benefits of dedicated lines.. (just do not coil it up!)"
I'm new to Audiogon, and have a lot of catching up to do. Extention cord = dedicated line???? Wow. If that's true, I like the idea a WHOLE lot. First, does it matter if the extention cord is made of any particular quality cable, or just any heavy (12 or 14) extention cord, of which I have several around the house. Second, I understand the merits of not coiling it, but how the heck to you manage that?
Thanks.

Bob Cohen

Sme10 - I recently installed Furman 20PFi conditioner. It has three banks of outputs: for high current amps, for audio, for video. I connected my components accordingly. After 1 day of pretty muffled sound dynamics came back, imaging got more focused, midrange opened becoming more detailed, bass is more "even" (midbass resonant frequency disappeared)and shorter but still "punchy" (lower source impedance?). The really strange thing is that my DLP TV picture got much better (sharper, cleaner and more vivid colors). That was pretty much what Furman was promising but it doesn't make much sense (digital OTA signal, digital TV). The only explanation is that presence of noise on power lines (or interaction audio-video) was causing signal jitter (noise in time domain). In addition I sleep better since Furman has non-sacrificial overvoltage protection that clamps at 188V max (not around 300V like many power strips with protection).

IMHO any situation that resulted in better dynamics, fullness, detail and focus AFTER removing the power conditioner, was the result of a power conditioner lacking head room. Speaking from my own personal experience, that would NOT be the case with a Silver Circle Audio pure power one 5.0. Game changing gear, this stuff. Check them out at www.silvercircleaudio.com.

Timztunz, I think that you are right on about most power conditioners lacking headroom. It looks like the Silver Circle Power One 5 is just a very large transformer. I think that others, such as Synergistic Research have found more innovative methods to avoid constriction.

Tbg wrote: "It looks like the Silver Circle Power One 5 is just a very large transformer." As the owner of Silver Circle Audio, I don't quite know how to respond to this. As dismissive as it is, the comment is, at the very least, uninformed. The pure power one 5.0 also contains a proprietary hand-built filter for eliminating common mode and differential mode noise and the finest electrical transmission components available anywhere. I would not be so quick to dismiss something in so quite an offhand manner until I had experienced it. It might be quite surprising.

Tbg should investigate and audition the Silver Circle Audio 5.0 power conditioner. If he did he would soon experience a lowered noise floor, increased dynamics, improved clarity due to better imaging and resolution and in general a bigger and more musical presentation.
My bass extension and increased dynamics were worth the price of the 5.0.
The other improvements realized were the icing on my cake.
This power conditioner simply out-performs every other conditioner on the market, period.

Jtwrace wrote:

What is "skin"?

Skin, meaning the outer portion of a conductor. I used the word as it is used in the term "skin-effect".

Louis Motek

Prosoundman, after 40 plus attempts, I will stick with my Synergistic Research PowerCell, SE10.

HI Elizabeth,

If I understand you correctly, it sounds to me that you are connecting your extension cord to a single, isolated, 20 Amp Outlet in the Kitchen.

Wouldn't this technically already be a dedicated outlet? ...and the extension cord is just a great way to use a dedicated outlet in another room?

FWIW, I live in a Condo, and I run an extension cord (to another electrical circuit zone on the other side of the same room), to a non-dedicated outlet to which I connect my Digital Sources and then my Amps and Preamp are plugged into a different zoned outlet in the same room, and I have noticed an improvement by using different outlets connected to different zones on the fuse box, to split up digital and analog gear. I discovered this more out of necessity, but it still sounds better.

Regards,
Rich

I have 2 20 amp dedicated circuits in my reference demo system and found the best solution was to plug the amp into the wall and everything else runs through my MIT Z-powerbar with the digital and video isolated from each other.

I think 2 other issues to consider are how dirty your current power is, and what quality of gear (amp and such) you currently use.

I don't have high end gear (NAD t753 surround, and NAD c372). In my main system (NAD t753), I have two conditioners in use in the one system. One is Richard Gray 400, the other PS Audio Quintet. I have removed both from the system, and only one at a time as well, and always run back to having them back in my system. Installed the PS Audio Duet with my NAD C372, and it sounds much nicer now too.

Yes, they do "color" the sound, but so does any change to interconnect, amp, speaker, etc. All add their own "color" or signature sound. The question is, do you like the change? I'll read the specs and the theory, but I know what my ears like. I'm not a purist. I'll try any reasonable change, as long as I have the option to return the equipment to the dealer. I am lucky that a local dealer allows that. Just test drove 3 sets of speaker cables over the last 3 weeks, and then picked one. This with no cost up front.

I had my electrician install three 15' runs of JPS Labs In-wall cable from three separate 20amp circuits in my main panel through my living room floor and terminated with high quality Furutech IEC connectors - essentially three DIY power cords wired into the panel. One for each amp and one for an Equitech Q650 which balances the power to my front end components in the rack. No need for outlets. The drop in the noise floor was dramatic. Pictures and a better description can be found on my virtual system page.

Prosoundman needs to disclose his financial interest with Silver Circle when posting such a glowing recommendation.

To not is completely unprofessional and unethical.

Since when is it unprofessional or unethical to speak the truth?
Based on my personal experience, The Silver Circle Audio pure power one 5.0
outperforms every other power conditioner I have experienced whether it be at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest or the local hi-end audio store.
This conditioner scrubs the AC as clean as any I have heard while delivering
more energy when the music calls for it.
It just makes my music sound better. Much better. This is probably why no one has returned the pp1 5.0 after an audition. I know it's why I approached Silver Circle Audio to be their rep here in Canada.

>>08-03-09: Prosoundman
Since when is it unprofessional or unethical to speak the truth?<<

It's your opinion not the "truth".

Now to the issue as you clearly misunderstood my comments.

Recommending a product without disclosing you have a financial interest is unprofessional and unethical.

It seems to me that your assertion that Prosoundman's opinion is "not the truth" is simply your "opinion" since you apparently know nothing about the power conditioner being discussed. Or do you know something of it? If you have opposing views I for one would be very interested to know what they are. After all, aren't we all here trying to learn more about this hobby of ours?

But I have to admit that it seems odd to me that as a dealer yourself, your only interest in this thread seems to be attacking Prosoundman.

Please! "...other than repping the products in Canada, Prosoundman has no financial interest, stake, claim, or other obligation or relationship to, with, or for Silver Circle Audio. He is simply a former customer, now a good friend, who bought our products, loved them, and asked to be able to show them to others in Canada when the opportunity arose. My email address is posted on our website. Anyone with any questions or issues is respectfully requested to email me personally rather than casting aspersions on other Audiogon members.
Thanks,
Dave Stanard

Thanks Dave, Audiofeil tends to play God alot around these forums. Makes him feel exceptionaly important to correct people on their own opinions:O) Funny how he has only ever initiated 1 thread...only one! Weird no? I geuss it does make sense however, since he trolls for ripe opinions to net, ay'? Arrrrgh, I'll best be goin now and think for myself.

"Please! "...other than repping the products in Canada, Prosoundman has no financial interest, stake, claim, or other obligation or relationship to, with, or for Silver Circle Audio"

I'm confused - can you explain this to me?

Is he or is he not rep for Silver Circle Audio(in Canada or elsewhere)? If he is he should disclose it - simple. As far as I know reps don't operate for free (financial interest). If he is not then Audiofeil made false assumption. This is not just opinion - it's a truth.

Dave_b - I also initiated only one thread.

Well, ok then. However, in a sense we are all reps for ourselves. Reps, whom at some point, will cash in on our good intentions for either some intangible emotional reciprocity or perhaps something more practical, such as cold hard cash:O) One thread though, hmm?...still a little suspicious. Your not an ET with a jones for audio voyerism are you? Now that would be really weird!

"However, in a sense we are all reps..." - Are you trying to muddy the water? Repping product is a contract activity not the state of mind.

One thread though, hmm?...still a little suspicious - not really. For me this forum is an opportunity to learn (and very grateful for that). It can be achieved by asking questions or reading/absorbing - matter of preference.

"Your not an ET with a jones for audio voyerism are you?"

Could you translate?

Sure, I can translate...lighten up a little! Have you no sense of humor man? Loosen that tie and relax for awhile...it's all good:O> FYI, most of my comments are tongue in cheek...sometimes even foot in mouth:O< Enjoy K man...I'm sure your not an extraterestial (ET). Right?

Extraterestrial...can't even spell sometimes:O)

Dave b - AMEN! there is a very good reason why I usually stay out of forums whether here or on AA. People play on the slightest semantic miscue and flame unsuspecting folks. My friend in Canada owns just about everything we make and is incredibly happy with his kit, as they say in the UK. When anyone in his area wants to see or hear SCA products, he is available to demo the gear. That's about it. Dave, I'm with you, folks around here should lighten up a bit, quit posting threads and listen to some music. Be well.

Let me get this straight - (I can laugh during it if it makes you feel better):

Prosound who is rep for Silver Circle Audio makes sales pitch (I don't have any other name for that):

"This power conditioner simply out-performs every other conditioner on the market, period."

and when he is asked about his financial interest Dstanard from Silver Circle Audio jumps in to defend him.

It doesn't look bad up to this point but lets look at another Prosundman thread: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1248441278&openusid&zzProsoundman&4&5#Prosoundman

Same story - Prosoundman makes sales pitch for Silver Circle Audio cables and when asked by Rnadelman for affiliation with the company Dstanard jumps in with his sales pitch and offers demo to Rnadelman who agrees.

Summary: We have here couple of guys who have financial interest advertising product on the forum on offering demo with purpose to sell. This is very unethical and even more disturbing that they don't see anything wrong with it.
Are you guys so cheap that you cannot pay for advertising like everybody else?

I invite everybody to read the link I posted and be the judge yourself. Perhaps moderator should read as well.

Agree with Kijanki.

Looks to me like a 3-way guerrilla marketing campaign. Sure they know its not considered appropriate, but they are only interested in themselves. They will have dozens of rationalizations, but bottom line is that this is nothing different from Phil (I liked the shaver so much I bought the company) Ronco's approach to marketing....er I mean shameless self-promotion.

I don't question anyone's good intentions here, and I certainly don't question the quality of the product. But it seems to me that as a matter of both common sense and basic good ethics, when a product is praised and the person praising it has a financial interest in its sales, that interest should be disclosed.

And upon careful reading of this thread and the one linked to by Kijanki, I see no denial thus far that such an interest exists.

Regards,
-- Al

Well that's it then, so let's move on and ignore their comments. I don't think there was any malice intended, just excitement and passion over a product they own and represent...which should be at least mentioned as a sidebar.

Some folks should get a life and stop throwing wet blankets on other people who are enjoying their lives. Seems there is always someone like him at all open forums. I never realized there where so many lonely people out there.

Some people should get INEGRITY !

Yep... I've never found one I've liked better than my dedicated lines alone. I do have my video stuff (TV/DVD player, Wii machine) plugged into an inexpensive Monster unit to keep them away from the audio stuff.

Doak

You can enjoy your life and still behave ethically.

Give it a shot and stop whining because you got caught.

I think you may be losing your audience due to the bickering. Please cease and continue with the original posters topic.

I used power conditioners for years and found that using cascading power conditioners on my digital rig made a nice improvement. But as I have moved up the chain to better components I have found that the PC's have had a detrimental effect on them in some cases.

- My amp likes it straight into the wall.
- My preamp has conditioning built into it, as does my phono preamp, and anything additional sounds worse.
- My new CD player also likes it direct into the wall. None of the different kinds of conditioning sounds better than this.

Since I'm a DIY kind of guy it has been easy for me to implement these changes and still maintain a safe "junction box" or sorts where I can have some surge protection and some small X (or Y) caps across the line that do not affect the components in any negative way.

I do still find benefits of PC for my turntable motor and my old DAC's, when I want to listen to those.

Now please consider that I have had my fuse box and power lines replaced in the last 5 years, so this may have contributed to better power in my home also.

Enjoy,
Bob

Wow! How's the music?

Bob is so right. Too many folks on too many of the audio forums spend time debating why one things sounds better than another. Do costly cables make an improvement to the sound of your hi-fi, do power conditioners help or worsen the situation, etc.

I think the correct answer to all these questions is yes and no.

It depends on how these things work with your gear in your home, and taking into account issues like dirty power, evironmental factors, and so on.

I think those who are debating (or arguing)the advantages should get back to listening to the music. My system is on 24/7, and I listen casually as well as up close for hours each day, and for the last 30 years. If I find something I believe will improve the sound and I can purchase it plus return it if it does not help, I will give it a try. The goal to improve how much I enjoy my music. I know the limitations of my system and I've tweaked it to the extent I want to. Any more money spent and the tweaks will cost more than the gear. I don't have a large budget for gear or tweaks, but have what for me is a great sounding system that plays any type of music. My total setup including 6 sources and a surround speaker setup is less than $10,000.

BTW, I don't support any camp of thought, or you could say I support them all. I am sure there are many out there who just want to hear their favorite music played in a fashion that is enjoyable to them, regardless of how they got there.

It seems that the goal for many on the forums is to debate or dismiss some technology they are sure does not do what it claims, when in fact they may have never even tried it themselves. Are these folks listening to their music anymore?

I'm more interested in hearing what works for folks and if they had the option would they buy the same tweaks or equipment again if they were starting over. I think honest answers to the latter point would be a telling sign.

I believe some equipment by nature of its design will benefit more than others through the use of power conditioners, and some homes that have very clean power will benefit to a lesser degree, or maybe not at all. Some equipment will also be so well built that additional tweaks may have little positive impact or could have a negative one.

If you like the way it sounds, with or without a power conditioner, good for you. Relax and enjoy your music.

Ppat, do you ever post, and if so, about what?

I tend to agree with you as obviously there is no consensus on anything here. It has always seemed crazy that people would expect one and that anyone would think that words can really be used to characterize sounds.

But that does mean that I have not sought improvements over time. I really only post to reveal my impressions, not to persuade others.

Tbg - People who post about their experiences with gear help me a lot to make decisions and learn, while people who say that everything is relative and I should listen to music instead don't help at all.

Audiofeil: Thanks for correcting the aforementioned situation.......Prosoundman, c'mon.......say "Unprofessional"! Now c'mon, say it......"Unethical"....And, after that, can You say "Misleading". It means the same in Canada, as it does in the good Ole' US of A!!!!!!J.C.

Getting back to the original topic, I have tried a couple of different power conditioners in my system, and both were absolutely awful sounding, especially for LP playback. They weren't nearly as detrimental for CD playback, though the sound was still compressed, both in dynamics and soundstaging. I won't be trying another.

Lear... which power conditioners did you try? I see you have a monster HTS power center in your system page... It'd be a shame if you are basing your views off how that crap sounds.

I just removed a apc h15 from my system.Everything but the amp was connected to it.After trying numerous interconnects I decided to remove my sources from the apc and it opened up my system and I heard sounds I never heard before by going directly to the wall plug.No more power conditioners for me.

Welcome aboard!

Any experiences with PS Audio Premier vs. dedicated lines?
Levinson built many of their Reference pieces that regenerated the electricty internally. So maybe regeneration is the answer?