Who has dumped the power conditioner?
One or two other things I noticed with regards to power and sound quality... I recently had the power coming into my house from the pole redone. We had a pole in front of the neighbors house rot out at the bottom and it had to be replaced. As part of the work ticket from PGandE, the main from the pole had to be rerouted to a point closer to our house. A new pole and line was put in and service restored. After everything was completed by the power company and my power restored, I hooked the sound system back up. I did notice an overall improvement in the sound. I was not looking for an improvement, just looking forward to listening to my system again. When I got powered up, it all seemed more cohesive and defined immediately. At the time I did not have anything but OEM power cables. I have always used power suppression and a UPS for power drops. Since then I have changed some of my power cables. Some made a noticable difference in sound, some just look cool. Which brings me to another power related story that may be of interest. A friend has a wood shop with some high power power tools. One has a 50 hp electric motor. When the motor was turned on, the power cable to the building would whip between the building and the pole! Most people would need to witness this to believe it, but it did happen. The shop was near the ocean and salt water. The cause was the top of the cable insulation was compromised enough to allow moisture into the copper core and the top of the wire was oxidized, the bottom was not. This created higher resistance on the top of the cable and when high current was drawn through the cable, the dissimilar resistance actually would pull on the top of the cable. There are many power cables to houses that have this problem. They just dont have a 50 hp electric motor to show it. But, It probably does affect the sound of their system. |
I just want to add that I have owned two conditioners from different companies with mixed results. One constant remained...they both seemed to soften the presentation somehow-like rounding the edges ( the softening happened at the frequency extremes). I have no idea why this seems to happen with so many conditioners. The only other thing I can I add is that I got better base out of one of them, perhaps due to a lower noise floor. would like to hear others with similar experience. |
Dlcockrum, I agree. I have had some 40 ac power conditioners and have always said the ultimate test is whether after breakin, the music is better once you have removed it. Most fail this test. The SR PowerCell SE certainly did, but more importantly I really missed the realism of the soundstage after it was out. |
I've got to weigh in on the Powercell 10SE as I purchased one two months ago and feel that I have now passed the "I liked it at first but took it out because it..." phase (which occured with the Furman IT-Reference 20i I sold a while back). Absolutely phenomenal. I run my entire 2 channel system (including my Krell FPB600C) and all my HT equipment through it and the improved dynamics, dead-quite noisefloor, and cavernous soundstage continue to blow me away with every listen. The picture on my plasma TV was vastly improved as well. Just can't say enough good things about the Powercell. I think that SR should have not branded it as a power conditioner since it is really entirely different in concept, design and performance than the others. |
Just installed an MIT Z Super 20 Duplex Outlet to feed my Krell integrated and Sony SACD player. This is a no brainer upgrade for better sound...dynamic contrasts increased, dimensionality enhanced, instrument voicing became more realistic, high frequencies became more textured but with less grain. One of the most dramatic increases in enjoyment for the money:O) |
Hi Bryan, You didn't miss reading what I was referring to, but my interpretation of it was different. He is saying that what will only occur under a rare combination of circumstances is COMPLETE cancellation of ac-related inter-chassis currents (which can cause high frequency buzz and grunge, and backgrounds which are less "black," in addition to causing low frequency hum). However, SOME improvement may still occur in many cases, to a degree that will vary depending on the relationships between the stray capacitances that are present in each of the interconnected components. So what I was saying was that since the relationships between those stray capacitances will be essentially random, the degree of reduction of hum, buzz, and grunge provided by a balanced power arrangement will be unpredictable. Regards, -- Al |
Al, I had a look at the paper and it looks to me that the author believes that balanced AC power will only reduce hum under a specific and rare condition -- in a system with three chassis that have the same capacitance. But most of the article content regarding "balanced vrs unbalanced" pertains to interconnects and signal, not power. I don't really see much here that is related to balanced power causing inconsistencies in results in different systems. Unless I just missed it. |
Al, I am considering a couple of power isolation transformer based products. One takes non balanced in and outputs balanced power, or so I believe. That's the equi=tech. The other is a Torus power isolation unit and since I don't have balanced AC in the house and won't be adding in via dedicated lines, I won't get the balanced in version, just the non balanced in. Would you say that the equi=tech would not really be impacted by the balanced power issues you mentioned because it is not actually connected to 240V balanced in power? Bryan |
Follow up: I just wanted to update my situation. After consulting with some trusted experts, I decided to try replacing the stock power cord that came with the Equitech. It was suggested that the small copper conductors in the beldon pc were resonating with more voltage draw. I was pointed toward something with a solid core, so I ordered a JPS Labs Power AC+. This has totally fixed the problem and further opened up the soundstage. It's kind of annoying that I'd have to spend an additional $400 for an expensive power conditioner to be listenable. But, oh well. I'm thrilled with the way things are sounding. |
Onemug -- Thanks very much for the kind comments! Turboglo -- By "unpredictable" I did not mean that performance would be inconsistent with any given system, I just meant that the effects would vary from system to system in a manner that could not be reliably predicted. I cannot envision any reason why the Equitech might be contributing to the varying results you are getting. It's just that what it does is apparently not addressing some of the particular anomalies and variations in your electrical supply. As you've seen in this thread, and no doubt in lots of others, reports of experiences with line conditioners and power regenerators tend to vary widely. I have no particular thoughts to add about them, as I don't use any myself (other than an inexpensive surge suppressor for protection) and I've never sensed the need for one at my location. Best regards, -- Al |
Al, Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, I'm one of those people who is extremely limited in technical knowledge, so I honestly don't understand much of what you wrote. You wrote: "The effectiveness of a balanced power arrangement, such as the Equitech provides, can particularly be expected to be both system dependent and unpredictable." When you say "unpredictable" do you mean that in a given system, a balanced power unit will be unpredictable? I'm afraid that I'm noticing this. After my initial glowing account, the next day I was hearing some glare and harshness that was almost worse than anything I had before. However, late in the evening, the sound was better than anything I had ever heard before from my system. So it seems that the quality of power going into the unit is still affecting the sound. I'm wondering if there's anything that can be done. When it's good, it's REALLY good, but when it's bad, it's pretty bad. I know that some have suggested adding some kind of filter or power regenerator upstream from the balanced power unit. Do you have any thoughts on that idea? |
The effectiveness of a balanced power arrangement, such as the Equitech provides, can particularly be expected to be both system dependent and unpredictable. That is because its effectiveness depends on the happenstance of how equal the parasitic (and perhaps designed in) capacitances between ac hot and chassis are, relative to the corresponding capacitances between ac neutral and chassis, for each piece of equipment that the balanced power is supplied to. See the second paragraph on page 2 of this paper, and also look at page 1 to see what is being referred to: http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an004.pdf Another reason for system dependency is that in an audio system with balanced signal interfaces between components, ac-related inter-chassis currents do not flow in common with signal return currents (as they do with unbalanced interconnects), and so at least some of the problems that might be helped by balanced power are avoided in the first place. Regards, -- Al |
Tbg, I totally agree that so much is dependent on synergy and integration of components. For example, I've had speakers in my room that have been absolutely raved about, but sounded REALLY BAD in my room with my electronics, no matter how I set them up. Unfortunately, trial and error is often the only way for us to figure out what works best in our particular situation. This is why I went with the recommendation of the designer of my speakers. He hasn't steered me wrong yet in these matters. best, Glenn |
Turboglo, the adage that everything is system dependent certainly applies here. Several years ago I bought an Equi=tech 1.5Q and did everything including several conversations with people at Equitech about it. It was absolutely the worst filter I ever heard, but the guy who bought it from me loves it. Balance power, I thought, made a lot of sense until I experienced it. |
Prior to today, my last experience with a power conditioner was about twenty years ago. Its dramatically bad impact on the sound of my system turned me off to the very idea for all this time. I installed dedicated lines to my room with high quality outlets a couple of years ago, which improved the sound, but there was simply no getting around the fact that my system consistently and dramatically sounded better in the late evenings, Sunday evenings in particular. This led me to conclude that poor power quality was robbing me of the full potential of my system. After doing some research and speaking with the manufacturer of my speakers and distributer of my amp (Bobby P. of Merlin Music, distributer of ARS-Sonum Filarmonia), I decided to buy a used Equitech 2Q. It arrived tonight. I'm shouting this from the rooftops: This is not a subtle improvement! Every aspect of sound reproduction has been positively and significantly impacted. Much blacker background, lots more low-level detail, bigger soundstage, more dynamic, more relaxed, more natural, more authority. I live in Portland, OR, so have all the inherent power problems associated with being in a city. It's hard to say how much improvement someone else would get, but I couldn't be happier. This is possibly the most cost-effective upgrade I've done in 30 years. It wasn't cheap, but it was significantly cheaper than upgrading my speaker cables, for example. Equitech 2Q Power Conditioner > Mac Mini > Altmann DAC > Cardas GR IC's > ARS-Sonum Filarmonia > Audience AU24e > Merlin VSM-MMe's |
Hi Adwiegert - been away for awhile, so sorry for the delayed response. The Monster unit is what I purchased originally, as in my area we have severe thunder and lightning storms, so a surge protector is absolutely essential to protect the equipment. I chose this particular unit as it has no adverse effect on the sound quality- no different from plugging into the wall directly. It also has the beneficial effect of removing the RF noise, though I always turn off all lights, fans, etc. when listening anyway. The power conditioners I have tried, on the other hand, have had very negative effects on the sound, as I have described before in other threads and won't repeat again here. One was a PS Audio product, the Quintet, I believe, that my brother owns, and in his area it does make a beneficial difference (he has solid state amplification, however). I have also tried another that a friend brought over, and it was even worse, I forget which one it was, exactly, I think one of the Furman ones. He didn't end up keeping it, either. Perhaps I am lucky to have good power in my area, or perhaps power conditioners just don't go very well with tube amplifiers and/or analog playback, things I have read many others assert here in these forums, and, judging from my own experiences and those of others I know, I have no reason to disagree. I'm not saying it couldn't work, just that it hasn't ever for me, and the effects were so negative that I don't feel the need to experiment with it any further. |
Nolitan - I experienced big improvement in clarity with conditioner (Chicago). It also removed upper bass resonance (lower source impedance?). It is important to pick one with high current output for power amp since amp's power supply takes current from mains in very short narrow spikes of very high amplitude. In a sense every linear power supply is a switching power supply operating at 120Hz with big momentary current demands and conditioner has to be able to supply it otherwise DC voltage drops at peaks - loss of dynamics. |
i think it depends on one's electricity and were one lives. I noticed that power conditioners help if your powerlines are near offices, industrial factories, sites like that. In third world countries, powerconditioners do help a lot. In the US, i can do mostly without them. But my friends in Hong Kong, China and Philippines really need them in their system because their electricity is not as clean as the ones in the US. Definitely, try them out... YMMV |
Getting back to the original topic, I have tried a couple of different power conditioners in my system, and both were absolutely awful sounding, especially for LP playback. They weren't nearly as detrimental for CD playback, though the sound was still compressed, both in dynamics and soundstaging. I won't be trying another. |
Ppat, do you ever post, and if so, about what? I tend to agree with you as obviously there is no consensus on anything here. It has always seemed crazy that people would expect one and that anyone would think that words can really be used to characterize sounds. But that does mean that I have not sought improvements over time. I really only post to reveal my impressions, not to persuade others. |
Bob is so right. Too many folks on too many of the audio forums spend time debating why one things sounds better than another. Do costly cables make an improvement to the sound of your hi-fi, do power conditioners help or worsen the situation, etc. I think the correct answer to all these questions is yes and no. It depends on how these things work with your gear in your home, and taking into account issues like dirty power, evironmental factors, and so on. I think those who are debating (or arguing)the advantages should get back to listening to the music. My system is on 24/7, and I listen casually as well as up close for hours each day, and for the last 30 years. If I find something I believe will improve the sound and I can purchase it plus return it if it does not help, I will give it a try. The goal to improve how much I enjoy my music. I know the limitations of my system and I've tweaked it to the extent I want to. Any more money spent and the tweaks will cost more than the gear. I don't have a large budget for gear or tweaks, but have what for me is a great sounding system that plays any type of music. My total setup including 6 sources and a surround speaker setup is less than $10,000. BTW, I don't support any camp of thought, or you could say I support them all. I am sure there are many out there who just want to hear their favorite music played in a fashion that is enjoyable to them, regardless of how they got there. It seems that the goal for many on the forums is to debate or dismiss some technology they are sure does not do what it claims, when in fact they may have never even tried it themselves. Are these folks listening to their music anymore? I'm more interested in hearing what works for folks and if they had the option would they buy the same tweaks or equipment again if they were starting over. I think honest answers to the latter point would be a telling sign. I believe some equipment by nature of its design will benefit more than others through the use of power conditioners, and some homes that have very clean power will benefit to a lesser degree, or maybe not at all. Some equipment will also be so well built that additional tweaks may have little positive impact or could have a negative one. If you like the way it sounds, with or without a power conditioner, good for you. Relax and enjoy your music. |
I think you may be losing your audience due to the bickering. Please cease and continue with the original posters topic. I used power conditioners for years and found that using cascading power conditioners on my digital rig made a nice improvement. But as I have moved up the chain to better components I have found that the PC's have had a detrimental effect on them in some cases. - My amp likes it straight into the wall. - My preamp has conditioning built into it, as does my phono preamp, and anything additional sounds worse. - My new CD player also likes it direct into the wall. None of the different kinds of conditioning sounds better than this. Since I'm a DIY kind of guy it has been easy for me to implement these changes and still maintain a safe "junction box" or sorts where I can have some surge protection and some small X (or Y) caps across the line that do not affect the components in any negative way. I do still find benefits of PC for my turntable motor and my old DAC's, when I want to listen to those. Now please consider that I have had my fuse box and power lines replaced in the last 5 years, so this may have contributed to better power in my home also. Enjoy, Bob |
I don't question anyone's good intentions here, and I certainly don't question the quality of the product. But it seems to me that as a matter of both common sense and basic good ethics, when a product is praised and the person praising it has a financial interest in its sales, that interest should be disclosed. And upon careful reading of this thread and the one linked to by Kijanki, I see no denial thus far that such an interest exists. Regards, -- Al |
