I've ended up with B2. Looks better then the black cube, 528. A matter of taste. I haven't had a chance to compare them sonically. Perfectly integrates with the system. |
B2 all of the way. That was a wonderful REL series. |
Timing and response as well as "speed" are utterly useless when used in a conversation about subs in any context other than discussing the design of a sound system for 100,000 listeners spread over acres at a festival. Bo's relentless nonesense insults the intelligence of experienced hifi freaks and spellcheck designers, along with displaying a sadly inadequate and misguided sense of musical taste...otherwise it's all good. |
It is about timing and response. This is the most important part for any subwoofer. Paradigm can maybe go low, but this does not say anything about the speed in response. Integration with the speakers is the main thing. This sets a subwoofer to a higher level. |
I use a REL B1 with my Sonus faber Cremona Auditors M and it has no problem keeping up with these very fine monitors. Speed is not the issue; integration is, and nobody does it better than REL. I tried Velodyne and JL in my home on trial and decided that the B1 was the best choice for my setup. |
It is a lot more simple. Here at Audiogon it is words. In real the sound does the work. It shows that the words are as it is said. I do a-b comparison all the time. It is not about me. ( then you still don't understand) It is only about looking further! |
Per Bo yet again...
"Many people want to do it themselves. I see all the time. I am who I am because I want the best for every person. Because I know how important it is that a set is well balanced."
Keep them coming Bo because your posts are getting even better. I starting to think you actually believe the crap you post and that we audio morons should be so happy to have you here at Audiogon guiding us to the light. No one can be that full of themselves, right? |
That is alright. I understand that the words we use can be read differently. And audio is like defending the stuff you own. Sometimes it is even difficult to look further. Many people want to do it themselves. I see all the time. I am who I am because I want the best for every person. Because I know how important it is that a set is well balanced. Quality will keep people longer happy with the things they bought. Audio is not a nice hobby anymore wenn you are not satisfied. And you do not know how to solve it. |
And BOl1972, I'm just busting your chops. We all have strong opinions of what we like. That's normal. That's why we have strong opinions on our suggestions to listen for yourself and then decide. It takes awhile for people to comprehend this. |
It's all good. I love my B2 but obviously I'm a moron. I can accept that. |
We are decent people. We don't have to agree with eachother. This is a website about audio. There is room enough for everybody his personal opinion. |
I should rest my case, but Bo is simply too entertaining...and although I think he just asked me a question, I have no idea what it is. |
Wenn you are the absolute sound at a show with all the big brands with far over 50 big distributers. You know were you are talking about. You are just playing with some simple toys, were are we talking about Wolfy? |
Wenn I read about the stuff you own, I do not take you serious. Just play with your toys Wolfy!! |
Bo1972...testing for "dimensions?" Your lack of English grammar skill, although perhaps charming to some, would be more easily tolerated if not exceeded by your lack of any grip on basic conversation skill or the reading comprehension effort required to actually discuss anything. If you have a point, it gets lost in the sauce of innanity and makes you appear sort of silly and lazy, like a sincere dog barking at the moon. |
Terrific, Copernicus and Einstein are both here.
2 deep thinking spellcheck wizards. |
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This website is about sound not about spelling. |
Maybe there are fools having trouble spelling when. |
Mister Wolf is here again. What we do in this business is comparing all the time. With subwoofers the same. Wenn a subwoofer has more control and authority it is easyo to hear. The same wenn you do a test to find out if the instruments and voices still have there dimensions. And the level in which they dissapear. Every person wants to have the best quality for the money they spend. Maybe there are fools who like to get less!! |
Bol972 continues to describe "speed" and "timing" as if they were actual things that matter. The voice coil of a paper, aluminum, graphite, balsa wood (!), ceramic or macrame reinforced dried Yak turd driver all get their signals at something like the speed of light, and the tone and output sound dissimilar among brands for reasons having zero to do with what he (and others) describe as "speed." Using your EARS to decide what bass tone sounds best in a particular room is the ONLY way to find what you like, and this is as true now as it was 10 years ago. Just typing that seems ludicrous but I do what I can. I find the weirdly sincere condescension from Bol972 annoying, but it gives me something to respond to not unlike having to deal with a loose monkey jumping around my hut. |
I sold a lot of Rel subwoofers in the past. They still make fine subwoofers. But these days there are many new brands on the market. So you Always listen to what there is more. My way of working is finding those products which are the best. Better in subwoofers means better integration, more speed and precision. I am not loyal to any brand. I am only interested in the best quality for the money. That is how I work. I use comparison of sub's just to let people hear the difference of subwoofers. And what a better timing and speed does with the integration of the subwoofer with your speakers. Velodyne subwoofers are maybe not the fastest, but there acoustic system works very well. For many people this works fine and good enough. 10 years ago we had to do it with our ears. Ears are still very important, but some acoustic systems make it a lot easier to get a decent level. What I said earlier; subwoofer which are sealed and has one bassunit in front integrates easier than wenn you use a subwoofer with more than one bassunit. Or those which are not sealed. The same about downfiring subwoofers. Use your own ears and compare it yourself to understand! |
And I would like to add this. This subwoofer is a game changer. Although the thing is huge, I have it dialed in perfectly. I'm having possibly the best audio evening I've ever had. The subwoofer is a must have for monitors. |
This is my first sub so I have nothing to compare it to. It's been running for about an hour and I'm in love with this thing already. I'm sure there's a better sub for me out there but I wouldn't know it right now. For me at this moment, this is the best sub. I'm very happy Bol. I'm also not a severely critical listener. I'm playing air guitar, listening off axis, walking around etc. I'm not looking for perfection because that journey isn't a good time for me and I can't afford it. Not all of us can order a $5000 sub online from the comfort of the Mercedes. |
Wolf, oh wait, that's right. Iz Kamakawiwo. (all kidding aside, a gentle giant:) |
oops, reading these in entirety is best before responding. Wolf, I thought you were the stand-in for Magnum P.I.? |
Donjr: "male model" HA
Me: "I'm not really a Hobo, tho I did play one on TV" (typecasting:) |
It's not about how low it goes. It all about speed and timing. Intgration with the speakers that is were it's all about. Wenn the Rel sub's would be faster, I would have sold those. It it still that simple!! Compare a subwoofer with one bassunit infront ( sealed) with a subwoofer with more bassunits used. The one with one unit will integrate more easy. Wenn you test stereo, even wenn the subwoofer is on the right side, the energy needs to come from were it is recorded. Wenn you use sub's with more units focus of instruments get less precise. Often wenn you swith the subwoofer from off to on you will hear the increase of the proportion of instruments and voices. It depends just how far you can see!! ( hear) Stereo use is far more difficult for subwoofers. Wenn you work at Highend level instruments are never allowed to become bigger in proportion. These days you can create what I call 'stealth'integration. This means that instruments even become more palpable but stay extreme small in proportion just as in real. And second the energy comes from were it is at the recording. You would be a fool if you are interested in sub's which makes instruments and voices bigger. It needs to be fully integrated with the speakers if they were not there!! |
Yes Bo there are other subs like Paradigm that would eat your Monitor Audio for lunch. People like JL audio, and yes the REL's are great. |
Here we go again.
I'll say this about you Bo, you are dedicated to your work as an audio salesman, constantly pushing the brands you handle. You already touted Monitor Audio over REL back in April when this thread started. I guess now that this thread is resurrected, you couldn't resist the opportunity again.
But your posts are getting more entertaining. Per Bo..."I only give this information to let people see there are more on the market these days." How magnanimous of you! Now that I know this, we would all be smart to listen to every recommendation you selflessly give us.
Problem is that the last time I listened to someone who said "Bo Knows", I bought a pair of Nikes. |
In the last few years many of my clients did a comparison with there Rel sub's and Monitor Audio subwoofer. They all went from Rel to Monitor Audio. A few also lend the new Rel subwoofers. Ofcourse you can and you are allowed to be happy with it. I only give this information to let people see there are more on the market these days. And they even can be better. The difference is speed and timing. I am not interested in selling a good subwoofer. I am only interested that my clients get the best for there money. That is the difference. It is that simple! |
I read this thread in its entirety today at lunch as I'm proudly picking up a lightly used mint REL B2 tomorrow morning. I wish I hadn't been drinking water when I read this from Wolf Garcia because I almost drowned. Keep it coming Wolf.
"Bol1972...I don't give a rat's ballsack about what you sold, and condescension and dismissal of other's opinions make you sound like my Uncle Dick. After over 40 years as a professional musician, professional live sound technician, audio fan, and male model (well...not the last one), I've found that you can tell a lot about how things sound by listening to them. Period." |
My understanding is the SE model uses the carbon-fiber drivers and power amplifier from their flagship line... but puts them in the smaller footprint package of the "R" series. They also added additional cabinet bracing. |
Delapole
Congrats on your REL. What's the difference between the SE 528 and the regular version? |
I just purchased a REL R-528SE and it's an amazing sub, butter smooth, fast, and very easy to integrate. I have it matched up with JDRC electronics and Duevel Bella-Luna Diamanté omnis. I've owned a lot of subs, and most were sonically difficult. This SE model seems to rise above the pack, the CF driver is stiff and fast. I also like that they are compatible with the high level outputs of balanced, differential and switching amps. |
I'm talking small changes here, and my REL isn't out of balance most of the time (never an issue with classical, rarely with jazz)...my room sounds fine, and, as I assumed I explained, it is the RARE recording that has too much low end, or some old LPs that can use MORE low end...again, I don't do this often as the balance of sub level to my mains is seemless, but I refuse to allow some album engineer or mastering tech to harsh my mellow because he thinks I need low end beyond any reasonable level (if you have 'em, listen to my previously noted examples of these bass mix challenged recordings)..therefore I relish my ability to tweek it a bit. My only "tone" adjustment. I think it's a good sign of how well my system works in that it reveals subtle (and not so subtle) bass frequency level issues, and as a professional live sound mixer I have the street cred to adjust things (I say that to myself anyway). If you operate a sub at very low level you might never have to adjust it, but I'm a freak about tonal balance and love clean bass properly placed in the mix to my specific tastes. I sometimes crank stuff up to fill my house with music to hear it from other rooms (cooking) or to get sleazy drunk hookers to dance for me, and on some things if I didn't lower the sub output at (way) higher volume levels, it can sound out of balance. I decide what bass is appropriate as my rig is my subserviant and obediant slave and I am the decider. |
[" If you are increasing the level from recording to recording, something is wrong,"]
It's actually a matter of taste. Many LPs from the early eighties can have a great deal of compression applied during the mixing process. Or maybe one just wants to hear more bass for the hell of it.
I can increase my subs bass volume with only a very minor affect on the rooms EQ using either the subs remote volume for a slight increase or one of the many of its custom presets for a substantially EQd increase. |
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Wolf, I now see what you are saying. But it doesn't make any sense to me. The x-over and the level should be right for all of your recording's. If you are increasing the level from recording to recording, something is wrong, IMO. Again, IMHO, if the level and x-over is seamless with the mains, then the amount of bass will be reproduced as per what is appropriate for the recording. If you like a louder or more forceful bass response, then increasing that control is simply overloading the bass and probably the room for other recordings. Sounds like maybe you need an equalizer in your system or some such thing. Why are you using your Sub's control's as an equalizer?? |
All well and good (and my trusty REL amazes me all the time, except when I'm not actually listening to anything), but I was specifically referring to having to adjust the level of the REL relative to the recording's bass output. I play some stuff that has really hot bass level (recent Donald Fagan, Peter Washington's bass on Charlap's Bernstein album, etc.). I don't adjust it too often, but I stuck a "chicken head" knob on it so I could tell where the High Level knob is without pulling the REL out from the wall (to satisfy my knob position curiosity relative to my obvious "golden ear" listening skills). |
Wolf, I think that the REL sub has enough flexibility of control to blend seamlessly with any main speaker. I know with my SF GH's that they blend seamlessly with these speakers. The GH's are ultra fast, and even though i was concerned that this would be an issue with the sub, that has turned out not to be the case. OTOH, it did take a lot of adjustment and fine tuning to get the correct blend, BUT I did it by ear; I suspect if I can do that most anyone can. Plus, the hook-up of the REL directly to the amp is a MAJOR benefit as far as I am concerned. |
My REL is currently behind my left main with a fake plant on top of it, so it has disappeared even more. I AM interested in responses to my previous post (perhaps from somebody with reading comprehension ability) regarding sub level manipulation...any manipulators out there? |
All great points. The act of disappearing in one's system, is REL's best asset. |
You should have stuck to the male stripper career, your EGO fits.... |
Jkuc...please explain...no wait...please don't explain as I somehow doubt I'd understand...really...thanks. |
Wolf garcia, apparently you don't have idea what you are talking about. you are the man. that's for sure. |
I don't get calibration systems except for the "gear adjustment challenged" listeners. I may have some advantage as a long time musician and concert sound tech (although among audio geeks that seems doubtful), but I trust my ears and other than my REL adjustment knobs I don't have any EQ on my preamp anyway (other than bass level tweaking I don't need any). Recordings have an infinite range of mixing results and sometimes the bass is way too loud, thus requiring my only EQ move which is to turn the sub down a little from time to time. Does anybody else do that? If not, why not? Do you surrender the control to a calibration system? Are we not men? |
I have my REL sub. Seamless integration with the system, perfect. Bo1972, you made a great suggestion to use a calibration system (in my case Yamaha Ypao, yours audyssey)for setup... I have balanced speaker volume and the sub... sub's volume is only 5 clicks up.. I set it a little bit to high by hearing. Crossover 34Hz is fine.
Soundstage has improved, more palable or more "touchable" as Bo1972 says, kind of energized and obviously better bass, deep with great control. It was a good investment, great upgrade. |
I just made a new REL cable from some Canare "star quad" stuff originally for no reason other than the Canare looks better (black mesh covered). Surprise surprise...I thought my old simple cable (some generic 4 conductor OFC my local audio joint gave me) was fine but this is better. Much better. Weird but true...higher sensitivity and definition for about 30 bucks (I, of course, used the same angled Speakon with good spades on the amp side). Oh yeah...and it looks really cool. |
I'm upgrading my Synergistic Research Tesla SE REL SPEC Reference Subwoofer cable to the new Synergistic Research Element CTS Rel Spec Reference Subwoofer cable in the next few weeks and I will have a full review here. |
