I sold and tested the Rel Q150E. It is a paper low freq. unit. This never will be fast. Wenn you think this is fast? I do not think you understand stealth low freq? There is enough music what will be not syngron with the music. Instuments and voices still need to be very sharp focussed. I never have heard a Rel do this. Paper units means slow. No argument about it. A Monitor Audio PLW-15 is so much faster in respons compared to any Rel subwoofer. I sold them for many years. Now I will never sell them anymore. Because I do not want my clients get this average quality. It is that simple. If it would be good, I would have used it!! |
Rel is till too slow. For stereo I would not want it even for free. Respons is not fast enough, same problem as Velodyne has. Wenn you use it in stereo intruments and voices are not small enough in proportion. I have done these tests many time. For me it is like 1 and 1 is 2. I use a Monitor Audio PLW-15 with Audessey Pro with my way of measurement. Now I have stralth low freq. Respons of the unit is in timing superior compared to Velodyne and Rel. Ones you heard this you can not go back anymore. It is that easy. |
The thing Velodyne does good is you have almost no acoustic problems anymore. But there is a big but.......it is still toooooo slow. Instruments and voices are still too big in proportion. My PLW-15 is superior in timing. But you need Audyssey pro to get it right. It has no acoustic system like Velodyne has. Velodyne speaker units are tooooo slow in respons. This is by far the weakest point of there subwoofers. Timing is crucial for using a subwoofer in stereo. For a long time I did not like it. The PLW-15 with Audessey pro did change my thought about this. Rel and Velodyne are both not capable og giving the stealth low freq. I want and need. Never buy a subwoofer with a bass reflex system. And Never one with more than only one unit in front. All the other kinds of sub's I test did fail in speed and in respons. You always will be aware of the flaw's. This can become very irritating!! |
I did compare them, if Rel would be better I would have said it. It is as it is. This is about quality. About timing, nothin more nothing less. I do not say Rel makes worse subwoofers. The only thing I say; they are not the fastest. Paperunits are not fast in respons. That is why other materials are used these days. Lighter materials means faster. Faster means better integration with the speakers. I think it is time for Rel not to use paperunits anymore. I am always looking for the best quality in every pricetag for my clients. I want them to get a 10 ( A) and not an 8 or 9 ( B) This is about good
, better best! |
I compare the respons of a Monitor Audio PLW-15 with a Rel subwoofer. This difference in respons is huge. So the respons of the Monitor Audio is my reference. Your focus is still at the Rel respons quality and speed. I would suggest; Compare a b with other sub's in respons like I did. After this you will have a different opinion. I did test so many stuff in Audio in the last 15 years. It is my job. I am always looking for the best, because good never will be good enough. Learn to look further..... |
I sold a lot of Rel for many years in the past. 10 years ago they were still popular also in europe. But technique goes on and there are new competitors which make better sub's these days. The difference is in timing and respons. I read the post. So I say once again; why choose a Rel, if you can get a better one for the same money. In europe Rel is not so big anymore. In the last 6 years the lost a big part in the market overhere. Welcome to the new world in audio. Do your homework and choose the best thing for your money. I had a client with a B2 and he wanted to buy a B1. After I said there are better competitors, he wanted to test some others as well. At the end he was glad I opened his eyes. He said: Rel is still good, but your are right there are better ones these days. He bought a JL Audio sub at the end. And that is why I reacted at the post. |
Another example, in the past I sold many Rel subwoofers. Like the Stadium III. It was okay, but still not that fast. We did compare it with a Monitor Audio GXW-15. This one is also a lot better in timing. I sold this Stadium III and he bought a Monitor Audio. If Rel would make a better sub, I would have sold this. At a show were I used the Monitor Audio PLW-15. People were amazed how fast it was. They all thought they were only listening to speakers without a sub. Many of them never heard this quality in stealth level. I think most of you are still at this level. Time goes on, so does speed and timing for subwoofers. For a long time I sold normally Rel. But these days you can get better!! |
These days I use my Monitor Audio PLW-15 from 16hz till 140hz. I does this with ease. Above 80hz low freq will become touchable. Voices and instruments become better focussed and still have the same proportion. My clients call it vodoo. Because the are amazed about the speed and that the all say; we can't hear a sub at all. Wenn you compare the speed of this one with the G1. You understand speed a lot better. I sold Rel for a very long time. After you heard others and compare them, you understand time and technique change fast. And these days there are subwoofers who are superior in speed. That is why I am not that interested in Rel like in the past. I want my clients to get the best for there money. Why you want a B wenn you can get an A for the same money. Just open your eyes, or should I say your ears!! |
I has nothing to do with what I sell. I have possibility to test and compare. This is what I like to do. I always like the things which are the best in a price range. Name of the brand I really don't care. I want the best for the bucks. I hope people will open there eyes (ears) and try more different brands before buying it. In America there are even more brands in audio than overhere in europe. So more options, I would say; use them! |
First of all I use Audyssey Pro. Second I meassure at different hights and places what Audussey discribes. What is the different between the Audyssey way and my way. This is very big. I did test many different ways of measering in over 2 years time. My way captures a lot more dynamic and details. Focus is sharper and I play about 1 metre beside my spakers and about 4-5 metres behind the speakers. As you know sound becomes touchable above 80hz. My sub starts at 16 hz till 140 hz at this moment. Wenn I go higher the overwhole sound becomes even more touchable. The PLW15 of Monitor Audio is a 50kg sub which box is sealed. It has a 15 inch unit. The respons of this unit is superior in speed compared to brands like Rel and Velodyne. Material they use is a lot lighter. But very stiff. The magnet they use is very big and wide. My subwoofer stands more on the right side of my front speakers. Instruments are still very small in dimension and very direct to locate. I test many sub's in respons and if instruments and voices are still in proportion. A friend of mine had a small concerroom with a Steinwaywing. He gave classical concerts of about 2-3 people. Instruments and voices are very smalle in proportion and very easy to locate. I was amazed how much smaller instruments and also voices are in proportion. A voice and even an instrument sounded so much more intimate. That is why I hate systems wenn instruments and voices are too big in proportion. You will loos the intimate sound. Intimate sound is one of the most important parts in realistic sound. It sucks you into the music. Wenn instruments are being played to big the distance between you and the music gets bigger. This means less emotion. Of all the cables I tested Audioquest and Purist Audio design are both capable of giving an intimate sound. I call this individuel focus of instruments and voices with the right proportion. I had this discussion with musicans. They will tell you the same about how big instruments and voices should be. With Audyssey Pro and the PLW-15 the first time in my life I heard stealth low freq. 4 weeks ago I had my set at a show of over 50 distributers. They said; I was the absolute sound of the show. Why? Because I had a 3d stage whit a focus most people never heard this sharp and touchable. It was easy to let people know what depth is and a 3-dimensional sound. The last day was a day for shopowners. Many never heard a sound this good. For many it was new that there music could be so sharo focussed and touchable. Cause of the wide and deep stage you hear every single instrument and voices by ease. I did do hundreds of tests during 15 years. This gave me a lot of information what I use. That is why I know all the different properties of many brands. This makes it easy to compare. Time and technique will make you think differently about audio. I never wanted a subwoofer to use of stereo. These days timing and speed did change my mind about this. I always used big loudspeakers like the B&W 800 Signature without a sub. Now I would not want to miss it anymore!! |
I sold a lot of Rel subwoofers in the past. They still make fine subwoofers. But these days there are many new brands on the market. So you Always listen to what there is more. My way of working is finding those products which are the best. Better in subwoofers means better integration, more speed and precision. I am not loyal to any brand. I am only interested in the best quality for the money. That is how I work. I use comparison of sub's just to let people hear the difference of subwoofers. And what a better timing and speed does with the integration of the subwoofer with your speakers. Velodyne subwoofers are maybe not the fastest, but there acoustic system works very well. For many people this works fine and good enough. 10 years ago we had to do it with our ears. Ears are still very important, but some acoustic systems make it a lot easier to get a decent level. What I said earlier; subwoofer which are sealed and has one bassunit in front integrates easier than wenn you use a subwoofer with more than one bassunit. Or those which are not sealed. The same about downfiring subwoofers. Use your own ears and compare it yourself to understand! |
In the last few years many of my clients did a comparison with there Rel sub's and Monitor Audio subwoofer. They all went from Rel to Monitor Audio. A few also lend the new Rel subwoofers. Ofcourse you can and you are allowed to be happy with it. I only give this information to let people see there are more on the market these days. And they even can be better. The difference is speed and timing. I am not interested in selling a good subwoofer. I am only interested that my clients get the best for there money. That is the difference. It is that simple! |
It's not about how low it goes. It all about speed and timing. Intgration with the speakers that is were it's all about. Wenn the Rel sub's would be faster, I would have sold those. It it still that simple!! Compare a subwoofer with one bassunit infront ( sealed) with a subwoofer with more bassunits used. The one with one unit will integrate more easy. Wenn you test stereo, even wenn the subwoofer is on the right side, the energy needs to come from were it is recorded. Wenn you use sub's with more units focus of instruments get less precise. Often wenn you swith the subwoofer from off to on you will hear the increase of the proportion of instruments and voices. It depends just how far you can see!! ( hear) Stereo use is far more difficult for subwoofers. Wenn you work at Highend level instruments are never allowed to become bigger in proportion. These days you can create what I call 'stealth'integration. This means that instruments even become more palpable but stay extreme small in proportion just as in real. And second the energy comes from were it is at the recording. You would be a fool if you are interested in sub's which makes instruments and voices bigger. It needs to be fully integrated with the speakers if they were not there!! |
Mister Wolf is here again. What we do in this business is comparing all the time. With subwoofers the same. Wenn a subwoofer has more control and authority it is easyo to hear. The same wenn you do a test to find out if the instruments and voices still have there dimensions. And the level in which they dissapear. Every person wants to have the best quality for the money they spend. Maybe there are fools who like to get less!! |
This website is about sound not about spelling. |
Wenn I read about the stuff you own, I do not take you serious. Just play with your toys Wolfy!! |
Wenn you are the absolute sound at a show with all the big brands with far over 50 big distributers. You know were you are talking about. You are just playing with some simple toys, were are we talking about Wolfy? |
We are decent people. We don't have to agree with eachother. This is a website about audio. There is room enough for everybody his personal opinion. |
That is alright. I understand that the words we use can be read differently. And audio is like defending the stuff you own. Sometimes it is even difficult to look further. Many people want to do it themselves. I see all the time. I am who I am because I want the best for every person. Because I know how important it is that a set is well balanced. Quality will keep people longer happy with the things they bought. Audio is not a nice hobby anymore wenn you are not satisfied. And you do not know how to solve it. |
It is a lot more simple. Here at Audiogon it is words. In real the sound does the work. It shows that the words are as it is said. I do a-b comparison all the time. It is not about me. ( then you still don't understand) It is only about looking further! |
It is about timing and response. This is the most important part for any subwoofer. Paradigm can maybe go low, but this does not say anything about the speed in response. Integration with the speakers is the main thing. This sets a subwoofer to a higher level. |
