which is better ? MC phono stage or MM+step-up ?

Give the Allnic AUT 2000 an audition. It is "Incredible".

Glad to hear it Nolitan.
I just reset my SUT from 1/30 to 1/15 ratio. This seams to be working well with my Denon 103. The 30x is good, but the 200 ohm load from the 15x adds some mid and high frequency clarity. Some would call it brighter, I would call it more balanced.

e

After these months of playing around with different combo, i much prefer in the end, mm+ step up rather than a straight MC phono stage.

Definitely a good MM + Step Up. It makes sense to invest in different SUTs or at least go for an excellent one and use many tonearms at the same time - there are solutions for doing so...

Well my 2 cents is that I am using an on board phono stage off my Audio Research SP9MKIII with a LOMC (.5mv) and I have never had a more smooth, open, detailed, warm and "live" sound than I do now. But I am lucky in that the on board phono stage had 67db of gain right out of the gate, so all I had to do was adjust the impedence to 100 0hms to match the cart and away I went.

My pleasure Nolitan.

e

Thank you Emorrisiv!

That explains why I like the SUT, because I don't have SOTA equipment. Far from it.
Ralph on the other hand makes state of the art gear and I am sure is well versed in the potentialities from the various methods of vinyl playback.
Being a old audiophile, I would admit that I have some bias towards some methods. I prefer lomcs,SUTs,electrostatics and tubes. With the exception of lomcs and tubes I am very much "out of vogue". Especially when you consider my Acoustats require considerable power and present somewhat challenging loads for amplifiers. In contrast the vogue is low power SETs and horns or very high efficiency dynamic "sound coffins". LOL! I couldn't resist.

One thing that most of us agree on: vinyl rules! So whatever method you choose or prefer,it is (IMHO) still better than digital.

We all like what we like. That is one of the things that makes this hobby so interesting.

IME you can get excellent results with an SUT but the cartridge and the SUT must be matched for best results, including all the loading issues, as cartridges have loading issues and SUTs have loading issues of their own and neither can be ignored. That is why they have to matched, so that when the SUT is properly loaded, so is the cartridge.

However I have found the transformers anywhere in the audio chain represent a loss of bandwidth and detail with added distortion. It is in the phono section that they potentially represent the least effect, but as they are located at the very first place the signal will pass through, any issues they have are compounded by the gain and distortion of everything downstream. Now that might not be so bad if an active stepup (that is also being considered) is poorly designed, but it is obvious that a properly designed phono section that has enough gain will give any SUT a run for the money.

Sometimes though you do find certain people who cannot tolerate any noise (and therefore may prefer digital on this account, despite analog being better in every other way). For anyone who has noise issues SUTs represent an excellent compromise. IOW it is possible, using and SUT, to get signal to noise ratios in the -90 db range.

In a nutshell: for maximum transparency and bandwidth go direct if you can. For minimum noise go with an SUT.

With less than state of the art equipment IMMV!

I think one of the best pre-preamps out there at a reasonable price is the Hagerman Piccolo. Dead quiet and with a few judicious parts upgrades it is utterly transparent and beautiful to listen to. Now I haven't heard a lot of these but I did compare this to the famed TX103's and I came away feeling the TX103's were colored.

No, SUTs are usually better than pre preamps. I have not heard one but the ZYX pre preamp, or also called "head-amp" is very good. Most of the pre preamps I have heard are not nearly as good as a good SUT. They tend to have hum and noise and a limited band width. SUTs,can also have hum problems, but it is usually a relationship with a ground or a cable.
It is best if you can keep the tone arm cable going to the SUT as short as possible and to use good shielded wire.
Check out "Bob's Devices" for tips on grounding.Bob is a super nice guy that is very helpful and offers nice SUTs at very good prices. he helped me with my DIY project and I didn't even buy anything from him.
how cool is that?

e

Emorrisiv,

When you are referring as " But these are usually inferior."
Do you mean SUT's are inferior ?

So phono stages with enough gain to allow lomc to play without a step up is better ?

Thanks for the inputs.

SUT= step up transformer. this is a passive device.The signal from a low output moving coil (lomc)is sent into the SUT and then sent to a preamp with a moving magnet phono section (RIAA). The low output is "stepped up" so that the MM section will have enough additional gain so that the lomc can be heard.

Pre Preamp is a active step-up with it's own power supply. These also are put into a moving magnet phono section,but these are amplified where as a SUT uses it's current to create voltage. Probably the best out there is the ZYX,which I understand is very good. But these are usually inferior.

Then there are phono stages that have enough gain to allow a lomc to play without a step up. These came about mainly because Preamps were no longer being built with moving magnet phono sections. The "phono stage" plugs into a line level source input on a preamp and is a active device. Many will have a moving magnet as well as a moving coil setting for the additional gain required of low output moving coil (lomc) cartridges.

confused?

I understand there are passive SUT's and active (headamp) SUT's.
Which of the two is better ?
I have tried the MC-4, Bent SUT, Altec 4722 SUT and Lundahl SUT. All seems to work very good.
Can someone point out an active SUT ?

Thanks for the inputs

Right now I am loaded at 50 ohms and I like it pretty well. I have tried a lot of different load settings with my old MC phono amp and came to like it down around 200. I just got a old Dynaco Pas2 and after defeating the tone controls it is sounding pretty good. The secondarys are 1/15 or 1/30 and right now I am using the 1/30. Lots of gain! by doing the math it comes to about 52ohms. With the other secondary it comes to a little over 200. I have not made up my mind which I like better.

e

Emorrisiv, have you been playing with loading?

Ralph, I DIY'd the cable from the SUT to the mm section of my preamp first before doing any other changes. There was some improvement,but nothing like changing the tonearm wire and the internal wire of the SUT. My next move is to make a new DIY cable from the SUT to the preamp using the Mil-spec. solid silver wire.stay tuned.

e

Brent, All transformers have a primary and secondary winding (if they only have a primary then they are called autoformers). The windings do not care if one side is at ground or not. So at the input to the SUT, you could lift the winding connection that is at ground, and use an XLR connector, set up with pin 1 (ground) being the arm ground and transformer shield, pin 2 being the + output of the cartridge and the 'normal' input wire to the SUT, and pin 3 being the minus output of the cartridge and the wire that was lifted from ground.

This effects a balanced input, and the output can then be single-ended or balanced, again using the same technique.

MM phono stages introduce capacitance which is completely useless for MC carts. I am not technical enough to assess if capacitance would affect the sound adversely, so I would suggest looking into this and finding more professional advise on a subject.
Highly adjustable (mouse piano) phono stages,imho sound worse than non-adjustable phonos.

Atmasphere,

Quick question for a non-technical guy: my SUT is an EAR MC-4 with four RCA inputs and one RCA output. How would I run it balanced?

Thank you.

Brent

Emorrisiv, one thing you will find in working with cartridges in general is it is best to keep your connections between the cartridge and the preamp to a minimum.

In the case of an SUT, I think you will also find the cable **after** the SUT to more critical than the one before, as the impedances involved are much higher at the output of the SUT and so more susceptible to cable issues. By comparison, the cable from the cartridge (if the cartridge is properly loaded) is relatively non-critical, especially if you run it balanced, which is possible if you have an SUT.

Sorry to go one about this but it is too incredible.

I just rewired my SUT with the same mil-spec. silver solid wire. My system just took a huge leap upwards! The sound stage is much more articulated with less hash and congestion. The bass is much more authoritative and controlled. The trebles are sweet and without glare of any kind. Just sweet.
The sound floor has dropped out of site. The hum problem is gone completely.This wire is amazing. I should find a giant spool of it and go into business.

cheers

e

After a week of playing a lot of records (the best part about unemployment) the cable is starting to sound much better.
With that I have made a newer one.

My friend Mike Morrow gave me some mil-spec. 30ga. silver solid wire, which I have just made a new cable of.
Right out of the gate it blew the Cardas in the weeds!

smoother,more refined,nuanced, lower sound floor, much more and tighter bass. I can only imagine how it will sound after burn in.

more DIY fun

e

Thanks guys for the advice. I have the Acoustat model 2 which has a nominal load of 6ohms.
From what I have read of the Atmos 140watt OTLs it sounds like what I want when I go back to work. I would love to hear them. Whatever I get it, is going to be tubes.
This recession s__ks!
I have read about the zero's but never heard them.Do they have much of a sonic signature? I imagine since they are passive it is minimal.
I use Paul's speaker cables and they are great.I love the fact that you can but first class sounding cables that don't cost more than a amplifier.I think the cable business could be the death of the hobby.Cables and Stones=snake oil.
Not that I don't believe that cables can make a difference,quite the contrary.But the margin on some of the stuff out there is grossly disgusting.Paul offers great sounding products for very reasonable prices.
The other cables I use are Mike Morrow's interconnects.These cables are terrific! If you have not heard them you should. And very reasonable.

Discalimer: Mike is a friend and in our club.

Once again, I can't thank you pros enough.My DIY projects have really come along nicely.And you guys and others have been a big help.

Yes- don't move the wire. It only breaks in with a signal though it. There are break-in boxes made for that that can speed things up.

We have a number of customers using Acoustats. I've heard a few of them with our amps over the years. They are not hard to drive but some of them have very low impedance, so depending on the model, you may need to use a set of ZEROs http://www.zeroimpedance.com

In one system that I was very familiar with, the Acoustats were so low impedance that the ZEROs were needed for the Audio Research that the guy owned, IOW the ARC would not drive the speaker right even on the 4-ohm tap. The ZEROs can be a real problem solver!

Thanks Ralph. I assume you mean not to move it or even touch it? If I left the system turned on,even though there is nothing playing on the TT, would this help in the break in?

Once again, thanks for all the great advice and knowledge base.

side bar for Atmos: Would your big OTL work with my Acoustats?

e

If you have a low output cartridge, the phono cable will need a good 200 hours. Its best if you don't disturb it!

I have constructed the new tonearm cable using a Cardas DIN plug and .28guage XLO triple shielded wire.It is less than .5 meter long.The wire fit perfectly in the DIN plug.

The sound: Sound floor is lower.High transients are more apparent.Bass seems softer and smoother,it is still there but with less authority.Hum is no longer a issue at all.Sound stage is significantly wider and deeper.Voices have significantly more texture. Strings sound more wooden and organic.

I think that this is a winner.Considering that it is brand new without any burn in,I have to think it will get better and better.

I also think that it will take a VERY long time for the cable to burn in. Does anyone have a idea how long I should expect this to be?

DIY analog: nothing but fun.

DIY SAMA project is next.

e

Oddly enough when I changed to the 100ohm resistors the hum problem when I had another cable plugged into the pre disappeared. Just dumb luck but I will take it.I still plan on building a short cable from the tonearm to the SUT.Just waiting on the stuff from Michael Percy to arrive.
these trannys rock!

In 2003 I started to use a Kondo KSL transformer with my LOMCs. In Germany not many people were using SUTs at that time, it wasn`t really popular. In the beginning I was not really happy with the MC output of the Lamm Lp2 DeLuxe, so I tried the MM with the KSL - and vroom, usally at 3 Ohm, only the Kondo IO-j at 1 Ohm.

Now I have 4 KSLs serving 2 Kondo M7 phonos and another SUT serving the Lamm which is rebuild now and has better and bigger Jensens. Only Boulder and Zanden phonos I use without SUTs. I will never abandon my transformers.

Amazing! I called Michael Percy and ordered the Cardas plug and the XLO(30guage) wire,before reading the last 2 posts! Great minds think a like! I plan on building the phono cable to be as short as possible.Maybe velcroing/screwing the SUT to the back of the TT.I was also thinking of wiring it directly to the SUT without using RCA connectors.Please tell me what you think of these ideas.They are not set in stone.

I have fixed the sibilants problem. I have a very cheap NAD PP2 phono section.The "stock" load for the MC side was 100ohms. I found the resistors and changed them out several times before arriving at 470ohms.This was BEFORE I built the SUT.I didn't think that the different load would effect the mm side of the phono section.I then tried changing it back to 100 ohm and boy does it sound much better now. No more snakes!The sound is starting to be scarey good.Too good for the money not spent.
I can only think that the additional loading either added or multiplied the mm impedance on the mm side.

I can't thank you guys enough for the lively discussion of ideas and also the suggestions.This is the kind of stuff that makes this hobby great.

e

Emorrisiv, It sounds like you are aware of Michael Percy Audio. If not, go to his site under that name. He does carry the Cardas DIN plug (for less than $50), but as I recall he carries other brands that cost less. Vampire and Neutrix are always cost-effective choices in the connector world. Then I would recommend you to choose some XLO copper wire, 26ga or thinner, for the wiring. It's excellent and "cheap" as audiophile wire goes. Vampire wire would be good too. (I use his 26ga silver wire with cotton insulation, if you want to spend more dough. Sounds fantastic.) He also has braided shield. I think you can get all the stuff you need to make a very high quality IC for under $75, if you choose well.

If you are getting sibilance you need to look at why. I guarantee its not on the records. You could be having RF problems- that is in keeping with sibilance and hum BTW.

We always solder the DIN connections when we build a phono cable. My advice: be very careful!

The ground scenario I outlined previously will be fairly resistant to RF BTW.

Thanks Ralph, I have been playing with different ground solutions.I have installed a ground plug on the SUT and it really didn't make any difference. I think it would be best if I had a very short cable from the tonearm to the SUT.
The present tonearm cable is very long (1.5 meter).I could just cut the cable and resolder the RCAs.
I also built a short cable which is shielded and I have the shield ground connected at one end only.This cable goes from the SUT output to the phono section.This really helped the sound,taking alot of the snakes out and cleaning things up in general. It really is crying out for a good tube preamp/mm section.
I am in search of a 5 din DIN connector for the tonearm. I know that Cardas makes them but at $50.00 seems pricey.(unemployment stinks!).They also make DIN to RCA connector boxs which are stupid expensive ($250.00) for what they are.
I may have to just chunk down for it anyway.
Can you offer advice on making this cable?
What kind of wire to use ? Do you solder or use leads for the DIN connector? I was also thinking of wiring the tonearm right to the SUT without using a extra cable.
This is a very interesting project. Since I don't listen to CDs much,I have just kept it unplugged from the Preamp and then the SUT is very quiet.
As for the loading.The SUT default load is 200ohm so that is pretty low and right at the low end of the recommended setting by Benz. The snakes from the Ss in vocals is not consistent and I think it is a matter of the recording microphone. The sound is articulate but not strident shows some warmth with nice mids and bass with trebles that can sparkle.

Thanks for the help.

Emorrisiv, sounds like you have a grounding problem. Make sure the arm ground, transformer ground and cable shields are all good. You can tie the arm ground to the SUT ground at the SUT's input and that should be consistent with the ground at the output of the SUT.

There could be a loading issue, but I would not mess with it until you have the hum problem fixed! If the ground is not right there could be ringing in the cable (anyone how has worked with oscilloscope probes knows what I am talking about); IOW the hum and the sibilance could be related.

Ralph, your statement on lomc voltage and current is profound. Indeed it is the very essence of how SUTs work.
If only I knew more about the basic concepts of current,voltage,impedance,capacitance and the laws that govern them.Having no background in electronics other than it can kill you I am somewhat in the dark. Having built a SUT I am experiencing the results and consequences of those laws.
This is giving me a taste of the concept of matching and summitry.I really would like to learn more.Keep up the good posts.

To anyone: My SUT default load is 200ohms.Can I load it even lower? It seems to be working very well with my lomc (a Benz Gold)but sometimes vocals seem very slightly strident. When words end in S,it some times sounds like snakes.This is not consistent.
One other thing I am experiencing:If I have a non-shielded interconnect plugged into the preamp I get hum.If I unplug the interconnect the hum is gone.Any suggestions?

e

:-)

Dertonarm, IME LOMCs have a lot of current. So much that if you short them out completely, the sound from the phono section will only be a few db down (and rolled off on top). Most audiophiles don't seem to realize that in exchange for low output voltage you get high current.

If there is any advantage to using an SUT, it is this fact, although a direct-coupled input stage can take advantage of this as well. I suspect that 20 years from now this will still be a debate, and still largely be dependent on the topology of the phono section.

This is a very interesting thread. My situation was that a well-regarded, but still relatively modestly priced phono stage with a JFET had been heavily modded. Even then, that left a modestly priced JFET still in the mix. The EAR MC-4 is a flexible, well-built and well-regarded unit. It is is nice complement to my modded phono stage run in MM mode. And yes, it is not purely about gain. I swapped 20 db of JFET for 20 db of SUT.

The use of JFETs + tube or pure tube or SUT + tube, etc. in a well-designed, top-of-the-heap unit, such as CJ, Atma-Sphere, Einstein, Aesthetix, etc. becomes a matter of design and listening preferences.

I like the previous comment that there are many roads to Rome.

Let me put one thing straight here from my point of view: it is not about SUT vs high gain phono stage.
These are not competitors in the race for phono gain.
A - precisely matched !! - step-up transformer should be viewed at as one half of the LOMC. Both devices do ask for the other. This is all about matching technical parameters depending on each other.
And doing so to bring out the optimum performance parameters - not because of gain, but because the right SUT provides the optimum working conditions for a LOMC.
And yes, - most LOMCs will work in a high-gain phono stage w/o SUT too. Most good phono stages do provide selectable impedance settings to further accommodate the LOMC. But they can't provide a matching inductance and I think this small factor is sadly neglected in most discussions about phono gain/LOMCs.

Yes, there are many ways leading to Rome.
I've walked them all in the past 30 years.
However - there is only one Via Appia leading direct to the Capitol hill (not Washington DC, but ancient Rome, Italia ...) and the Forum Romanum.
You do bring a JFet hybrid phono input stage to superb results. Certainly enough to meet the quality of most any phono stage available on the market in the ears and eyes of most audiophiles and all reviewers.
But the very best phono stages aren't available commercially.
And they can do without the anabolica of JFet-tails.

May I just say that I find this string to be very informative and fun.It is great having amp designers contributing their ideas and experiences.For someone like myself,being new to the SUT game,it is most enlightening.As I gain experience with my own SUT,the information presented does nothing but help me in my building a SUT.This is not only a hobby,but also a part of my musical life,which is at the core of my life long experiences.Thank you so very much to all.

e

Yes, I have been told that getting the jfet gain stage to really sound right is not easy, which is why there are many bad examples out there.

I'll leave it to others to sway toward one approach or the other. I am only offering that there is more than one way to get to the music which is why there is a number of great phono stages available and they don't all use the same gain stages. There has to be an equal number of really bad ones of all designs. So, IMO there is no simple answer to the original question. As always, you have to live with/listen to any device for yourself and decide.

And yes - I agree with Atmasphere regarding avoiding ss input stages in tube phono preamps. Tempting as it is (oh, that extra gain...) - the trade off (sonically...) is too high a price. There is no free lunch ......
But in tube phono stages the prime slogan still is: "straight - no cheaser !"
While I have to admit that the JFet tailed hybrid input stages are always tempting from the point of view of a designer.

Well, I do have a tube phono preamp with total 72 dB phono gain - sans line-stage.....
Nevertheless - I do run my LOMCs with a SUT. I have sufficient gain, but that is not the whole issue. Its not just gain - its the matching impedance AND inductance. Something only the matching SUT can supply for a given low source impedance moving coil.
But after all - that is just my opinion and I do use very low source impedance and output moving coils.
Back in the early 1990ies I too thought that running LOMCs direct into the phono stage is better.
Today I use very special SUTs hand tailored to the cartridges I use.
The LOMC and its matching and corresponding SUT are a team.

We've specifically avoided using SS input in our tube phono section. Instead, we created the first fully-differential phono stage (1989) as a means to keep noise down. I've tried a variety of SUTs (and never had a hum problem, FWIW).

SUTs do offer a great noise floor, but at a slight loss of detail and musicality. We did everything we could to make sure they were loaded correctly- BTW if not properly loaded the SUT will express the inter-winding capacitance rather than the turns ratio- IOW loading is **essential**. I am sure that with some preamps, the SUT is an important part of getting a LOMC to work, but with our preamps as longs as the cartridge is over 0.2mV going direct sounds better.

I had my phono stage heavily modded by Bill Thalmann. We decided to go with an EAR MC-4 SUT for the MC gain, so the phono stage is run in MM mode (all tube), bypassing the JFET in the MC portion of the signal path.

The result of SUT + tubes is a much more musical presentation with a lower noise floor. Bill reminded me that CJ's top phono stage has a SUT built-in, so it runs SUT + tubes in the signal path.

For the dollar invested, a "quiet" tube sound with lots of quality and flexibility.

The Alaap IS a tubed phono and pre, with a jfet MC stage.

Dan I am sure that there are excellent jfet phono sections, but if you had a tube preamp and wanted tube pre/phono sound,than it might not be what some would want.A SUT allows for working with either.

cheers

e

It is not the jfet. The Doshi Alaap uses a jfet mc gain stage most beautifully. Like others have said, the designer's experience and ability has a lot to do with it. I believe Nick has shown that a jfet solution can work extremely well. I'm sure there are others who can make it work also.