This is were the the word "hobby" truly comes into play. I have a SS phono section with both mm and mc outputs. I always felt like the mm was much better than the mc side. So I started doing a lot of reading on SUTs. I obtained a set of transformers from a gentleman on Ebay and built my own.Wow, what a difference!
Yes you have to deal with hum, but there are ways to do that.
The sound is much more dynamic.The sound floor is lower and the frequency response is significantly wider,especially in the treble.The highs seems to have no ceiling.The bass is tighter and more defined.Everything is more coherent.
That said, the transformers I got were good quality Beyerdynamics with values that worked perfectly for my LOMC.
side bar: I emailed Bob of Bob's devices and he offered a lot of help,even though I am not a customer.I cannot say enough good things for a guy that sells a great product and yet is willing to help a DIY project.I would encourage anyone looking into a SUT to try one of Bob's.They start at a very reasonable price and are proven to be excellent.And of course his support is wonderful.
As for which is the way to go? There is no easy answer. I would say that if you are a plug and play guy that doesn't want to spend any time with tinkering with locating the SUT and trying different cables should go with a phono section. But if you are a analog hobbyist than SUTs are a lot more fun and interesting.In my book, a passive device will always have more POTENTIAL than a active one.But active devices are easier.Much like the passive preamp vs. active preamp.
One more thing.I have noticed that a lot of modern tube preamps with phono sections use jfets for the MC section.Many of the reviews of these preamps recieve high praise for everything except the MC jfet section.If you have one of these,a SUT allows for that nice tube phono section to be used instead of the jfet sound.
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Dan I am sure that there are excellent jfet phono sections, but if you had a tube preamp and wanted tube pre/phono sound,than it might not be what some would want.A SUT allows for working with either.
cheers
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May I just say that I find this string to be very informative and fun.It is great having amp designers contributing their ideas and experiences.For someone like myself,being new to the SUT game,it is most enlightening.As I gain experience with my own SUT,the information presented does nothing but help me in my building a SUT.This is not only a hobby,but also a part of my musical life,which is at the core of my life long experiences.Thank you so very much to all.
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Ralph, your statement on lomc voltage and current is profound. Indeed it is the very essence of how SUTs work.
If only I knew more about the basic concepts of current,voltage,impedance,capacitance and the laws that govern them.Having no background in electronics other than it can kill you I am somewhat in the dark. Having built a SUT I am experiencing the results and consequences of those laws.
This is giving me a taste of the concept of matching and summitry.I really would like to learn more.Keep up the good posts.
To anyone: My SUT default load is 200ohms.Can I load it even lower? It seems to be working very well with my lomc (a Benz Gold)but sometimes vocals seem very slightly strident. When words end in S,it some times sounds like snakes.This is not consistent.
One other thing I am experiencing:If I have a non-shielded interconnect plugged into the preamp I get hum.If I unplug the interconnect the hum is gone.Any suggestions?
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Thanks Ralph, I have been playing with different ground solutions.I have installed a ground plug on the SUT and it really didn't make any difference. I think it would be best if I had a very short cable from the tonearm to the SUT.
The present tonearm cable is very long (1.5 meter).I could just cut the cable and resolder the RCAs.
I also built a short cable which is shielded and I have the shield ground connected at one end only.This cable goes from the SUT output to the phono section.This really helped the sound,taking alot of the snakes out and cleaning things up in general. It really is crying out for a good tube preamp/mm section.
I am in search of a 5 din DIN connector for the tonearm. I know that Cardas makes them but at $50.00 seems pricey.(unemployment stinks!).They also make DIN to RCA connector boxs which are stupid expensive ($250.00) for what they are.
I may have to just chunk down for it anyway.
Can you offer advice on making this cable?
What kind of wire to use ? Do you solder or use leads for the DIN connector? I was also thinking of wiring the tonearm right to the SUT without using a extra cable.
This is a very interesting project. Since I don't listen to CDs much,I have just kept it unplugged from the Preamp and then the SUT is very quiet.
As for the loading.The SUT default load is 200ohm so that is pretty low and right at the low end of the recommended setting by Benz. The snakes from the Ss in vocals is not consistent and I think it is a matter of the recording microphone. The sound is articulate but not strident shows some warmth with nice mids and bass with trebles that can sparkle.
Thanks for the help. |
Amazing! I called Michael Percy and ordered the Cardas plug and the XLO(30guage) wire,before reading the last 2 posts! Great minds think a like! I plan on building the phono cable to be as short as possible.Maybe velcroing/screwing the SUT to the back of the TT.I was also thinking of wiring it directly to the SUT without using RCA connectors.Please tell me what you think of these ideas.They are not set in stone.
I have fixed the sibilants problem. I have a very cheap NAD PP2 phono section.The "stock" load for the MC side was 100ohms. I found the resistors and changed them out several times before arriving at 470ohms.This was BEFORE I built the SUT.I didn't think that the different load would effect the mm side of the phono section.I then tried changing it back to 100 ohm and boy does it sound much better now. No more snakes!The sound is starting to be scarey good.Too good for the money not spent.
I can only think that the additional loading either added or multiplied the mm impedance on the mm side.
I can't thank you guys enough for the lively discussion of ideas and also the suggestions.This is the kind of stuff that makes this hobby great.
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Oddly enough when I changed to the 100ohm resistors the hum problem when I had another cable plugged into the pre disappeared. Just dumb luck but I will take it.I still plan on building a short cable from the tonearm to the SUT.Just waiting on the stuff from Michael Percy to arrive.
these trannys rock! |
I have constructed the new tonearm cable using a Cardas DIN plug and .28guage XLO triple shielded wire.It is less than .5 meter long.The wire fit perfectly in the DIN plug.
The sound: Sound floor is lower.High transients are more apparent.Bass seems softer and smoother,it is still there but with less authority.Hum is no longer a issue at all.Sound stage is significantly wider and deeper.Voices have significantly more texture. Strings sound more wooden and organic.
I think that this is a winner.Considering that it is brand new without any burn in,I have to think it will get better and better.
I also think that it will take a VERY long time for the cable to burn in. Does anyone have a idea how long I should expect this to be?
DIY analog: nothing but fun.
DIY SAMA project is next.
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Thanks Ralph. I assume you mean not to move it or even touch it? If I left the system turned on,even though there is nothing playing on the TT, would this help in the break in?
Once again, thanks for all the great advice and knowledge base.
side bar for Atmos: Would your big OTL work with my Acoustats?
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Glad to hear it Nolitan.
I just reset my SUT from 1/30 to 1/15 ratio. This seams to be working well with my Denon 103. The 30x is good, but the 200 ohm load from the 15x adds some mid and high frequency clarity. Some would call it brighter, I would call it more balanced.
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Thanks guys for the advice. I have the Acoustat model 2 which has a nominal load of 6ohms.
From what I have read of the Atmos 140watt OTLs it sounds like what I want when I go back to work. I would love to hear them. Whatever I get it, is going to be tubes.
This recession s__ks!
I have read about the zero's but never heard them.Do they have much of a sonic signature? I imagine since they are passive it is minimal.
I use Paul's speaker cables and they are great.I love the fact that you can but first class sounding cables that don't cost more than a amplifier.I think the cable business could be the death of the hobby.Cables and Stones=snake oil.
Not that I don't believe that cables can make a difference,quite the contrary.But the margin on some of the stuff out there is grossly disgusting.Paul offers great sounding products for very reasonable prices.
The other cables I use are Mike Morrow's interconnects.These cables are terrific! If you have not heard them you should. And very reasonable.
Discalimer: Mike is a friend and in our club.
Once again, I can't thank you pros enough.My DIY projects have really come along nicely.And you guys and others have been a big help. |
After a week of playing a lot of records (the best part about unemployment) the cable is starting to sound much better.
With that I have made a newer one.
My friend Mike Morrow gave me some mil-spec. 30ga. silver solid wire, which I have just made a new cable of.
Right out of the gate it blew the Cardas in the weeds!
smoother,more refined,nuanced, lower sound floor, much more and tighter bass. I can only imagine how it will sound after burn in.
more DIY fun
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Sorry to go one about this but it is too incredible.
I just rewired my SUT with the same mil-spec. silver solid wire. My system just took a huge leap upwards! The sound stage is much more articulated with less hash and congestion. The bass is much more authoritative and controlled. The trebles are sweet and without glare of any kind. Just sweet.
The sound floor has dropped out of site. The hum problem is gone completely.This wire is amazing. I should find a giant spool of it and go into business.
cheers
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Ralph, I DIY'd the cable from the SUT to the mm section of my preamp first before doing any other changes. There was some improvement,but nothing like changing the tonearm wire and the internal wire of the SUT. My next move is to make a new DIY cable from the SUT to the preamp using the Mil-spec. solid silver wire.stay tuned.
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Right now I am loaded at 50 ohms and I like it pretty well. I have tried a lot of different load settings with my old MC phono amp and came to like it down around 200. I just got a old Dynaco Pas2 and after defeating the tone controls it is sounding pretty good. The secondarys are 1/15 or 1/30 and right now I am using the 1/30. Lots of gain! by doing the math it comes to about 52ohms. With the other secondary it comes to a little over 200. I have not made up my mind which I like better.
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SUT= step up transformer. this is a passive device.The signal from a low output moving coil (lomc)is sent into the SUT and then sent to a preamp with a moving magnet phono section (RIAA). The low output is "stepped up" so that the MM section will have enough additional gain so that the lomc can be heard.
Pre Preamp is a active step-up with it's own power supply. These also are put into a moving magnet phono section,but these are amplified where as a SUT uses it's current to create voltage. Probably the best out there is the ZYX,which I understand is very good. But these are usually inferior.
Then there are phono stages that have enough gain to allow a lomc to play without a step up. These came about mainly because Preamps were no longer being built with moving magnet phono sections. The "phono stage" plugs into a line level source input on a preamp and is a active device. Many will have a moving magnet as well as a moving coil setting for the additional gain required of low output moving coil (lomc) cartridges.
confused? |
No, SUTs are usually better than pre preamps. I have not heard one but the ZYX pre preamp, or also called "head-amp" is very good. Most of the pre preamps I have heard are not nearly as good as a good SUT. They tend to have hum and noise and a limited band width. SUTs,can also have hum problems, but it is usually a relationship with a ground or a cable.
It is best if you can keep the tone arm cable going to the SUT as short as possible and to use good shielded wire.
Check out "Bob's Devices" for tips on grounding.Bob is a super nice guy that is very helpful and offers nice SUTs at very good prices. he helped me with my DIY project and I didn't even buy anything from him.
how cool is that?
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That explains why I like the SUT, because I don't have SOTA equipment. Far from it.
Ralph on the other hand makes state of the art gear and I am sure is well versed in the potentialities from the various methods of vinyl playback.
Being a old audiophile, I would admit that I have some bias towards some methods. I prefer lomcs,SUTs,electrostatics and tubes. With the exception of lomcs and tubes I am very much "out of vogue". Especially when you consider my Acoustats require considerable power and present somewhat challenging loads for amplifiers. In contrast the vogue is low power SETs and horns or very high efficiency dynamic "sound coffins". LOL! I couldn't resist.
One thing that most of us agree on: vinyl rules! So whatever method you choose or prefer,it is (IMHO) still better than digital.
We all like what we like. That is one of the things that makes this hobby so interesting. |
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