I thought you were looking at monitors? Under $2000 you're not going to find a floorstander that uses quality components AND has a resonance free cabinet. You need both if imaging and soundstaging are your most important considerations. Cabinet resonances are one of the biggest differences between speakers that image well and ones that completely disappear. But the larger the cabinet is, the more difficult and expensive it becomes to make it resonance free.
IMO you'll get a better result sticking with monitors. And since you have a small 10'x12' room, I'd stand by that suggestion even moreso. |
More a matter of narrow baffle, Silverline Preludes do what you want, will not be bettered in a room that size.
I listen to jazz and classical in a room that size with Preludes,they have beat dozens of speakers in that room, including brands like KEF, PSB,Focal,Usher etc. |
You would do much better by considering gently used speakers. A pair of Gallo Ref. 3.1s will walk all over anything you can find for $1500 new. Remember, quality speakers have a lifespan of decades, buying something 2-3 years old is the smart thing to do...
-RW- |
Ty Vapor 1 did not know that..ty again |
I agree that in a room your size, a good pair of monitors is the way to go. I don't agree though that a good pair of floorstanders cannot be purchased for $1500 brand new. I can name many good ones that use quality drivers and pay attention to cabinet design to reduce resonance at this price point. Whatever construction and components are use, they still have to sound good to you and be the best the speaker for you - not us. So asking a bunch a strangers in a forum for a recommendation is really pointless. Instead ask yourself these questions.
1. Whats amplification do I have or plan on getting? Does it have a large enough power supply (not watts per channel) to drive low impedence speakers of 4 ohms or less? Should I even be looking at low impedence speakers with sensitivity ratings in the low to mid 80's or should I stick with 8 ohm, more efficient speakers witrh ratings in the 90's?
2. Whats my room like besides its size? Are there a lot of hard, reflective surfaces? Window? Hardwood floors or carpeting? Or is there a lot of plush soft furnture and drapes that can absorb sound.
3. What kind of speakers, particularly tweeters, do I like the sound of now? What have I heard that has already impressed my ears? Do I have a baseline for listening? Tweeters come in all differenet types - soft domes made from different fabrics, hard domes made from different metals, ribbons, ring radiators and compression horns. All these types sound different from one another. At the same time, they can all be good. So the trick is finding out what sounds good to you.
I would start asking myself the above and then go out and start auditiong speakers by type (not brand) to narrow down your driver preference. Also bring along source material that you are very familar with. One you have made a short list of actual models you have heard, then come back and ask forum owners about the specific models you are thinking about. Most will be glad to tell you what they like or dislike about them. Good luck in your search. |
I have dozen of speakers in small rooms (11x11) and medium size (12x16) in the past 12 years... dynaudio, vandersteen, magnepan, b&w, martin logans, psb, DIY... I do have a pair of rega rs5, and these are the best compromise imho.
I would take a good listen to those. I have enjoyed Vandersteen tremendously, but they are bulky. |
(((11-05-11: Vapor1
Hey guys, I'm the owner of Vapor Audio. How about this for a testimonial))
((((thought you were looking at monitors? Under $2000 you're not going to find a floor stander that uses quality components)))
Wow.... Sure he can, you just don't want him to know about it.
Or is it perhaps you are peddling Vapor speakers without disclosure again.
The Vandersteen 1 C uses great drivers in a sophisticated multi enclosure with real bass down to 38 hz, and Phase and time correct to the music.
I have done this experiment and my conclusion is full range wins every time playing music.
JohnnyR
Vandersteen dealer
|
I've owned the 1C's myself and that would be my first choice, as well, given your price range. The only thing I will add is that they are very easy speakers to drive. I don't find Vandersteen's difficult to drive myself, but starting with the 2, they do like a little power. The 1's are different. Just about anything should work. Its a quality that sometimes people overlook. |
If you insist on new, Vandersteen 1C is my recommendation as well. If you don't mind used and lowering your budget, look at these. I have owned the 1Cs twice and the Kestrels 3 times. My preference is for the Kestrels as they have musicality all over the Vandies. They also shine in small rooms. |
There's a guy selling NIB Revel F32s for $1500. These are close-outs as Revel has now released the new Performa3 line. |
I'm clearly not trying to hide behind a screen name.
The 1C isn't exactly a great example of quality components and contruction in a floorstander for under $2k. Retail price for all the drivers and crossover components used would be under $200, and the cabinet certainly isn't resonance free. The point I made in the first post is still totally valid.
That said, I did own a pair back around 2000. Thought they were good, but ultimately outgrew them because they're too laid back and a bit lifeless. They were a good deal back then, but now-a-days internet direct companies like Aperion and Emotiva offer a lot more value for the entry-level floorstanders. The PSB Imagine T2 is also a pretty solid speaker for $1500/pair ... about as good as you'd get for the price if you're set on floorstanders. |
REGA RS5 / REGA RS7
see the great reviews in STEREOTIMES
http://www.stereotimes.com/speak022306.shtml
The R7 combines the true-to-the-music philosophy of all Rega products with the resolution and imaging demands of the audiophile world
Great extract below:
>>> After 34 years’ experience in the audio world have taught me that the most common system building error is mismatching the speaker to the room. Place a mini-monitor in too large a room and you get the bass-shy “squawk box” syndrome.
Far more common in the US is buying a speaker whose bass response is more than the room can handle, resulting in various manifestations of boom, thud, and rhinocerine mud-wallowing. It’s more than a simple matter of room dimensions and overall volume: wall and floor construction also play a crucial role. It’s been my general experience that if you can get clear and tight response down to 40 Hz in-room, stop and count your blessings. And think very hard about pursuing response into the bottom octave. One is more likely to screw up everything achieved in the musically useful range of 40 Hz and above. While my own reference speaker, the Sound Lab Dynastat, is flat to 20 Hz in my large basement listening room, the number of times I’ve absolutely needed that bottom octave for musical reasons in the last two years is zero. While the lowest range of the organ might be majestic in a large cathedral, mismatched bass-heavy speakers that literally shake the house on its foundations are more likely to induce vertigo and viscera displacement than aesthetic satisfaction. So how do you walk the line between bass-shy mini-monitors and elephantine bass heaviness in the “normal” room? Enter the new Rega R7 loudspeaker. |
I don't think Vapor1 is saying anything controversial here. Monitors' strengths are generally their imaging, and a stiff cabinet lacking in resonances is more easily found at this price point for a new speaker in monitors, not floorstanders.
IME, monitors image like a dream and can give a great soundstage. That is a challenge for floorstanders for the reasons Vapor1 added, and since you will get closer to a point source sound from monitors (and will get point source if you go with a coax design).
For new floorstanders, I think Tekton Lores are in your budget range. They get rave reviews from some corners of this forum. But I'd guess that they may be a bit forward (like many speakers of similar designs I have heard). Check the Lore threads to see about soundstage and imaging (though take some of the "giant killer" fanboys with a grain of salt).
As for what you didn't ask about: Used, I'd say look for a pair of Von Schewiekert floorstanders. New, aside from floorstanders, I'd look hard at the KEF LS50s. Or for stoopid cheap monitors, I was really impressed by the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR monitors designed by Andrew Jones (at least get a pair for a garage, kitchen, bedroom system folks). |
Vapor1,
"The 1C isn't exactly a great example of quality components and contruction in a floorstander for under $2k. Retail price for all the drivers and crossover components used would be under $200, and the cabinet certainly isn't resonance free. The point I made in the first post is still totally valid."
With regard to that statement, I don't know how you would know how all those separate components used would add up to somewhere under $200. Maybe you're right; if you could even find them all used. What I really want to know is how you go about judging the resonance of the cabinet? Did you measure it? Did you compare it to other cabinets? What was the process?
I'll be completely honest with you. I question how accurate your info is. I've no problem at all with your opinion, and if it differs from mine. Reading your posts, though, it looks like you are going beyond opinion and are getting into fact territory. That's just how I see it. If I'm wrong, or just not reading your post as you intended, I apologize.
To the OP,
Rlwainwright offers an excellent piece of advice. He states: "Remember, quality speakers have a lifespan of decades, buying something 2-3 years old is the smart thing to do..." I couldn't agree more. (Not so much with the part about buying used. That's up to you. Its a personal choice.) If you take the time now, and be sure you like whatever speakers you end up with, you may not have to go through this process again for a while (hopefully). Its not the easy way to do it, but you're the one that has to listen to them, not us. |
Zd542 - I suppose I should clarify the position I made above. When I owned the 1C's was when I was beginning speaker design, or more appropriately at the time ... tinkering. I know because I had the 1C's completely disassembled many times. I rewired the internals, added extra cabinet bracing, and replaced some of the crossover components with better quality parts, and removed the polyswitch fuses. Those things helped somewhat, and they also improved when I ran them "naked", without the sock and chopped off the dowels and top plate. But the Vifa D25 tweeters and P21 woofers are both inexpensive parts, although solid performers for the price.
To my knowledge the design is the same now as it was 10 years ago, but if I'm incorrect in thinking that, I apologize. |
03-31-13: Vapor1
I'm clearly not trying to hide behind a screen name. I would disagree, you were certainly not being transparent. It's customary for manufacturers and dealers to identify themselves when posting on these boards. I welcome your participation, but your bias does need to be noted and presented. |
New or used? Type of amplification?
If used, I have been auditioning some small floor standers and have liked these with classical/jazz:
- OHM Microwalsh SE
- Opera Super Pavarotti
- Totem Acoustic Arro |
Need an RS 3 in a room that size, even a RS 5is too big, I know , I tried both. RS 3 is good, Silverline Prelude is better. |
If it has to be floorstanders I'd agree strongly with the Silverline Prelude recommendation given your stated priorities. I've only heard them at shows, but they really wowed me along with lots of others in the crowd with their remarkable imaging and transparent 3D soundstage. Hard to see you going wrong there assuming they mate well with your equipment and room. I liked the PSB and Aperion recommendations as well, and I'd throw Epos in there too based on what I've read but haven't heard any of them them first hand. Best of luck. |
Lots of good recommendations |
Vapor1,
Your last post does put your other comments in much better context. In all fairness, I don't think anyone could put all that together without you telling us. That's why when I first read it I thought it was a bunch of BS from someone who gets their listening experience from reading magazine reviews.
That said, I still stand by my recommendation of the Model 1's. To be clear, I'm basing my comments only on my own listening experience, but nothing else. I've compared them to several other speakers around the same price and always preferred them. That doesn't mean everyone will like them, but definitely worth a listen. |
04-05-13: Nyaudio98
Have been super impressed with Vapor Sound's owner/speakers...they most def give you very good bang for your buck
Nyaudio98 (Threads | Answers | This Thread) Nyaudio98, do you now own these speakers? Welcome to this forum! |
I have not made a purchase to date |
For $1K, look into a pair of GoldenEar Aon3 speakers and spend some of the money you save on a good pair of very inert stands. I have a pair of $2K floorstanders at home, and the standmount Aon3's match or better them in sensitivity, dynamic range, and bass extension, and beat them in transparency, soundstage, and imaging. Because GoldenEar makes all their own components and has a broader market, the vertical integration and economy of scale (not to mention Sandy Gross's design genius) give you more performance for the money.
They are well-distributed and you shouldn't have much trouble finding a dealer nearby to audition them. At least listen to them before buying. |
I have listened to the Golden Ears and to be honest liked the revel performa 3 series better..M105. I have decided the Breeze and Stiff Breeze are the bookshelves to seriously consider. Vapor Audio has spent alot on making this speaker and the sound quality for the money is ultra amazing. |
At ~$1500, you should at least take listen to Monitor Audio RX6 or RX8. Hard to beat them for overall sound quality for a small floorstander. The nice thing about them is that the conventional wisdom about small, inexpensive towers not imaging well does not seem to apply to them. I compared them to several other small floorstanders and they set up a great soundstage and imaging, had great mid range and treble clarity, along with decent bass. |
I bet Magnepan MMG would sound nice in that room. Specially with a small quality 8" sub.
I agree used is the best deal although theres always a little risk of not getting what you paid for.
So many good speakers to look at. While I agree box bracing is huge, its not the final judge for sure.
Here are some great used speakers to try & check out if you can find local ads. This is a wide variety and some Just favorites from the many I have owned.
-Magnepan MMG (under 450)
-Magnepan 1.6 & 1.7(prob to big for 10x12)
-Vandersteen 1c
Vandersteen 2 in different series
Legacy classic(Some argue cheap parts, but Legacy sounds good to me)(under 1300)
Klipsch KLF 30 2001or later with titanium tweets & mids upgrades(love them under $800)
Paradigm reference 60's-100's various series(a bit harsh though)
Martin Logan Aeon i (IMO best Logans ever! Only liked the i version with tweeter on rear)
Martin Logan Ascent i ($1500)
There are many others to listen to. Some likely to big for room. Logans are now expensive to repair. Need panels often. If you like to mod or tweak speakers , the KlipschKFL 30's can be easily moded(titaniums, bracing, cross over) and become incredible speakers at their price invested(1200 aprox with everything) |
