Try a non oversampling DAC like an mhdt. I still like my older SS Constantine but you can roll tubes in their tube dacs to further tweak the sound if desired.
Where is my digital problem: taste, vinyl v. digital, DAC, realities, etc?
I want my digital to sound better. While I have about 500 vinyl records, I really like being able to sample music first before buying what I know that I will listen to in the future. I tend, though, to not want to listen as much to poorly recorded music or digital in general. I'd like to get my digital sounding better to make it more engaging so I can listen longer and test out albums before purchasing.
Here's what's going on with my digital end versus vinyl.
Vinyl is holographic--spooky and romantic at times. The sound fills the space better. Digital emanates sound more directionally from the loudspeakers.
Vinyl makes certain instruments sound more realistic--i.e. horns, drum sticks, brushes, acoustic guitar/bass.
Vocals on vinyl (in particular when I play jazz vocals from 50s/60s) sound sublime. Digital is not bad, but the vocals sound less in the room and more like a picture of the recording session.
Digital has more harshness, fatigue, and I cannot play things as loud or as long.
My DAC is an NAD M51 (fed by Tidal to Bluesound Node 2 to DAC)
My phono pre is a Manley Chinook, taking its signal from a Technics 1200 GAE table and ART9 cartridge.
I seem to get this sound, as described above, regardless of speakers.
On some level, I haven't spent as much money on the digital end as the analog end.
Should I try another DAC? Should I just conclude I'm a vinyl person and live with it? I'd prefer not to go down the road of getting back into CDs because the beauty of Tidal high resolution is the ability to try out tons of stuff before purchasing the album.
If I try another DAC, what do folks recommend if my priorities are increasing holography, realism of individual instrument sounds, making vocals sound more in the room, and decreasing bite/harshness/glare, etc. I'd really prefer not to spend Lampizator money. Can I reasonably achieve an improvement in these objectives by going the route of Border Patrol, a tube DAC, or something in the $2k range?
BTW, If I didn't love my vinyl sound so much I'd say the NAD M51 is a really great DAC.
Here's what's going on with my digital end versus vinyl.
Vinyl is holographic--spooky and romantic at times. The sound fills the space better. Digital emanates sound more directionally from the loudspeakers.
Vinyl makes certain instruments sound more realistic--i.e. horns, drum sticks, brushes, acoustic guitar/bass.
Vocals on vinyl (in particular when I play jazz vocals from 50s/60s) sound sublime. Digital is not bad, but the vocals sound less in the room and more like a picture of the recording session.
Digital has more harshness, fatigue, and I cannot play things as loud or as long.
My DAC is an NAD M51 (fed by Tidal to Bluesound Node 2 to DAC)
My phono pre is a Manley Chinook, taking its signal from a Technics 1200 GAE table and ART9 cartridge.
I seem to get this sound, as described above, regardless of speakers.
On some level, I haven't spent as much money on the digital end as the analog end.
Should I try another DAC? Should I just conclude I'm a vinyl person and live with it? I'd prefer not to go down the road of getting back into CDs because the beauty of Tidal high resolution is the ability to try out tons of stuff before purchasing the album.
If I try another DAC, what do folks recommend if my priorities are increasing holography, realism of individual instrument sounds, making vocals sound more in the room, and decreasing bite/harshness/glare, etc. I'd really prefer not to spend Lampizator money. Can I reasonably achieve an improvement in these objectives by going the route of Border Patrol, a tube DAC, or something in the $2k range?
BTW, If I didn't love my vinyl sound so much I'd say the NAD M51 is a really great DAC.
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JB, good to hear that! I have Chord Mojo and mhdt NOS Constantine DAC. I use both in my setup depending on mood. Both very good but very different sound! For one who finds digital too edgy in general I’d go with the NOS Constantine. NOS DACs in general have a good rap for being very musical and easy on the ears. The Constantine sounds more like my vinyl. I’ve had the Constantine for a good 10 years now, the Mojo about a year. I enjoy the Mojo a lot but it has not retired the NOS Constantine. I used to also have an mhdt Paradisea tube DAC. Tube rolling with that had big effect on the sound. I liked it best with the Tung Sol tube which made it sound less warm and more neutral and dynamic than the stock GE tube, more like the SS Constantine, so I sold it here a few years back and kept the SS Constantine. I’d buy another mhdt tube DAC in a heartbeat though if I had a need. |
I’m so leery of going down an interconnect rabbit hole to get me to where I want to be. I’m using DH Labs line level RCAs feeding a Primaluna integrated. From the bluesound I’m feeding the DAC with DH labs coaxdigutal product from the same silver sonic line. I’m curious, does Mapman think I should play around with interconnects. Did you do that before trying the Chord? I tried the Creek DAC upgrade to my Creek Evo 100A. Then I tried the NAD was more extinguished. The creek was smoother though just by a touch. I suppose I could fire up the creek by moving it from my living room to my dedicated room. Cord releases the Quetest. Is it the same thing as the Hugo without portability options? |
Your problem is probably jitter. Since you are using S/PDIF coax from the Bluesound to the DAC, there is an opportunity to minimize this. Not that the NAD DAC is perfect, but It will probably be a LOT better fed with a low jitter source. On the other hand, everything that the NAD gets is evidently resampled and changed to PWM signal, so it may not be a huge improvement. You might try USB first. You will need a good USB cable from Bluesound to the NAD. I personally use the Wireworld Platinum. Also, it is a good idea to use this in the USB cable: https://sotm-usa.com/collections/sotm-ultra/products/copy-of-tx-usbultra-regenerator-1 This regenerator will improve things a lot with USB, particularly bass focus. If you want to try reducing the jitter from the Bluesound S/PDIF output to see if that helps, you could try one of these: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=157348.0 7 psec of jitter and 30-day money-back, less shipping. I highly recommend getting a better S/PDIF coax cable, BNC type with adapters for RCA. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I have a preference for R-2R/multibit designs for the reason Mapman mentioned (musical, easy on the ears). I'm very happy with my recently purchased MHDT Lab Pagoda. FWIW, I also have a Schitt Bifrost Multibit, dB Audio Labs Tranquility, and Chord Qute EX. I've used each, with the Tranquility (USB only) being the exception, with my Node 2. I like each of these DACs and have held onto them for various reasons but it's the Pagoda that has a place in my modest system. The Pagoda is but one in their line and perhaps the least romantic. Here's a nice comparison of several MHDT DACs if you care to read a bit about them: http://www.basshead.club/mhdt-labs-pagoda-stockholm-atlantis-and-canary Border Patrol was high on my short list when contemplating my latest purchase. In the end I opted out because it uses a TDA1543 in the design and my Tranquility DAC uses the same chip. I wanted a different flavor so to speak. Best of luck in your search. |
So you have a Manley Chinook tubed phono stage (very nice) feeding a PrimaLuna tubed Integrated (also very nice)... Pouring tube sugar on top of tube honey... So sweet... That is going to be hard to match... Look at R2R Designs Like Denafrips Terminator or FPGAs such as PS Audio Directstream/Junior and Chord Qutest... Or go with a tubed DAC like from Ayon Audio... You may also need to think about rolling some sickening sweet tubes into the first gain stage of your PrimaLuna to help with your tubed sugar addiction... 8^) |
OP asks if he should just be happy with vinyl. I would leave it at that. I think that some people’s brains are just Hard Wired to prefer the limited dynamic range, surface noise, and speed instability that vinyl offers. IMO digital should not try to emulate any of those characteristics. The OP should be happy that so many albums are now available in vinyl, and be happy to shell out the sixty bucks that vinyl retailers charge for digitally recorded music that is then embedded in a slab of petroleum and extracted with an expensive sewing needle that slashes the grooves of the album with each playback. |
@ddude003, I love your way with words! Yes, I'm pouring tube sweetness on tube syrup on tube everything. Maybe I need to chill out a bit? But man, I'm hooked on smoothness. Right now I'm listening to Lou Rawls and Les McCann, Stormy Monday, on vinyl. It's sooo tasty. @mahler123, seriously? You are one depressing soul. I'm curious... have you heard a good analog system? Ever? One thing I can say for sure, I haven't heard digital keep the air on symbols, drums, and percussion. It's hard, tight, clean but cut off. Listen to Waltz for Debby on digitial. There's no air or warmth on the brushes/symbol work. That record should glow! Mr. Mahler, I'd love to see you arm wrestle Michael Fremer! HA HA! :) |
@jbhiller, On the bright side you have the same TT and cart that I have and it is a very very good analog combo. A well recorded piece of vinyl is just heaven. You could spend a great deal of money to get your digital end there but maybe not. I agree with @mapman and others as far as trying a NOS R2R DAC. I have a relatively cheap $799 Oppo Sonica DAC/streamer and once it was returned from Modwright with a completely new tube output stage and separate power supply it comes close to my vinyl rig. Oppo is gone now but if I were looking for a DAC I would have to consider the Denafrips or the Lab12 DAC1 SE. |
Jbhiller My last analog rig, which I gladly sold off after finally getting tired of vinyl propaganda and used the proceeds to help purchase a second DAC (Bryston BDA3), consisted of a Clearaudio Concept tt, Concept mc cart, and a Musical Surroundings phono preamp. Total cost was about 4K. I’ll leave it to you to decide if it was a “good analog system “. Before that I had a Rega P3 with a PSAudio Preamp, with whatever mm cart Rega included. Before that, a Project starter system. My objections to vinyl were as stated in my first post. My question for you is if you prefer analog sound, why are you trying to get a digital front sound that sounds analog? Why not just spin your vinyl, have fun plucking the dust bunnies off the stylus, and enjoy the music? |
@lancelock , Agreed! It's a very good combination. It's so hard to find anything wrong with the ART9. I'd have to setup other carts (likely super expensive) and spend months comparing, which is not necessary as the ART9 is great. @Mahler, In my OP I noted the reason I want my digital to sound better--I love being able to sample tons of different music first through Tidal before buying it on vinyl. This saves money, time, and the exploration process is fun. So the notion that I would just stay in the vinyl realm only is not ideal. I really cannot pass judgment on your vinyl rigs of yore. What I will say is that I've yet to hear a digital system do what vinyl does on jazz and vocals that I listen to. If a rock recording has space and air in the recording then vinyl typically wins out too. I don't know what you listen to or what you value so I'll leave it alone. @wisnon, I appreciate that intel. I'm really liking my system now so maybe make one more significant addition would be smart as I don't feel that I want to improve other stuff. |