Did you allow the unit to have a good burn-in period before making a final judgment? After a couple of weeks, I have to say this unit sounds very good for the money. Admittedly, I have a laid back system (B&W speakers, Musical Fidelity amplifier) so it seems a good match.
Again, I'm very pleased with the imaging, dynamic bass, silky mid range, and satisfied with the reasonably well behaved high end. As for how this compares to the NOS DACs, I can't really say. I listen to a loot of Jazz and Classical in addition to ambient, electronica, rock, non-commercial country/regional music, and the authenticity of the instruments seems very good for the price.
This is not the best quality that I've heard (that would be a wonderful turntable with a fantastic cartridge--I forget what they were exactly) but I think that this unit offers good value for the money.
Music Prof
|
Too bad you did not go Blue Circle Thingee - great sound and very simple to use. I have found CA product is not a warm enough sound for my taste.
Try Frank at Signal Cable - good quality IC's and Power Cords too - for the money, Frank is hard to beat. |
Tbg raises one of the hobby's all-but-innumerable controversies. He is on his 47th system, according to his system page, so clearly he is entitled to his opinion. There are others whose mileage varies; see posts in the archives here by Sean and Lak, among others.
My own experience is that there is no downside whatsoever to running a costly digital source from an isolation transformer of adequate size and quality, and none either to running a cheaper one from a small, cheap iso tranny. Note the word cheap. What is especially appealing about this tweak is its excellent (IMVHO) return on investment.
The power conditioning controversy has extreme positions and moderate ones, like all controversies. The extremist on the positive side uses active devices, sometimes mass-market ones with MOV surge protection, on all his gear, even power amplifiers. The purist finds no conditioner of any real help, especially not on power amplifiers where it tends to limit current supply. The isolation transformer, used on a DAC, falls pretty close to the purist position. |
Music_prof, what Tobias says omits a very simple face, at least IMHO, isolation transformers, indeed almost all ac filtering or conditioning devices, do more harm than they than good. There is one clear exception to this, again IMHO, the Synergistic Research PowerCell. It is not cheap, however. I have no recommendations that are cheap, except nothing. |
Thank you very much for the information--it is very helpful.
I am going to do a little research to see what is available in the budget range.
The dacMagic is continuing to mellow over time. I wonder how long a typical burn in takes.... |
An iso transformer would plug into your AC supply. Then you plug your DAC's power cord into the tranny. This eliminates much of the pollution on your DAC's AC line.
The transformer accepts 120V and puts out the same voltage. No actual transformation of voltage happens. However inside the tranny there is now a physical separation between the AC circuit in your wall and the AC line which feeds your DAC. Think of it as Customs and Immigration ( OK, Homeland Security if you're that way inclined ). The barrier is not enough to stop trade but it does stop the riffraff -- the grunge and pollution on the AC line. As a side effect, it also reduces most high-voltage spikes to harmless levels ( but nothing will stop direct lightning ).
The results for digital audio are pleasing to the ear, and one of them is cleaner highs. That's why I mentioned the possibility.
Isolation transformers are used in laboratories, hospitals, server farms and sound studios to keep AC line junk from affecting the working of delicate, precise, mission-critical instrumentation; oh, and sound recording gear. They are often replaced, sold off, upgraded and so on but they don't wear out and you can frequently find suitable ones used on eBay. You'd only need a little one for your DAC, say a 125 volt-amp size ( 125 VA or about one ampere ), but bigger wouldn't hurt if that's all you could find.
My brother runs studio gear with his computer and finds he gets cleaner sound with the iMac plugged into an iso tranny. |
Dear Tobias--
Would you please elaborate for the ill-informed?
Thank you!
MP
|
I'll bet you can tame that forward high end by running the DAC from an isolation transformer. Even a cheap one. |
Update:
After an extended burn-in period, I'm very pleased. The sound stage and imaging continues to be wonderful beyond expectations for a product of this price. The control of the bass--both the punchiness and clarity of detail--still amazes me. The mid range has become even more mellow bringing to mind the image of caramel. The high end has tamed considerably and is quite good.
In short, I love how responsive and musical this product is. The only weakness might be that the high end might be smidgen forward for some listeners, but otherwise, I find this to be a very musical and accurate piece of equipment and well worth the money.
MP
|
Prof - is it sounding any better? |
My wife couldn't bear to make me wait. I've received my unit in black and am breaking it in now.
Details:
Speakers: B&W DM 610s
Amplifier: Musical Fidelity B1
Sound files: .flac
Software: JRiver Media Player / ASIO4All
Upon opening the box, I had three thoughts:
1) The unit seems reasonably well built. The case and controls feel solid
2) It comes with a wall wart--I wonder if this results in less interference by having the power supply away from the unit or if that was a cost-cutting measure
3) I don't believe that I've ever seen such a cheap USB cable in my life.
So, I connected the unit with a better USB cable, and played the Dead Can Dance Ubiquitous Mr. Lovegrove. I was floored by the imaging and sound stage. The latter exceeded the dimensions of my listening room. Next, I played the Chemical Brothers Setting Sun. With both of these excerpts, I was very impressed with tight controlled bass.
Before listening to more demanding music, I created a play list of very eclectic music and let the DAC run for about 36 hours. I played a number of excerpts (William Grant Still's Afro-American Symphony, Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time, CPE Bach's Symphonia, & etc.) and was disappointed in the somewhat harsh nature of the highs. The bass continued to be extraordinarily well behaved, and the mids were quite warm.
I let the unit play for another 30 hours or so, and while the highs still seem a touch harsh, they seem to be mellowing somewhat. I am hoping that trend will continue.
I'll keep you posted,
|
I just received my Giga Lab Moon NOS USB DAC from Pacific Valve yesterday. A 200% improvemnt over my tiny, $30 Behringer USB/headphone thing.
I was also in the price range of $200 - $500. I chose the Moon becuase:
> wanted US service (Pacific Valve is great, I sent them 3 e-mails w/ questions and they answered all of them within 1 hour).
> I wanted NOS becuase of reports that it had a "tube sound" And it does, slightly.
> no headphone crap.
> no inputs that I didn't need (has USB,coax and optical in)
> looked well-built - and it is.
I decided to go low end on my budget because in the future I intend to upgrade to something in the $2500 area from Wavelenght or Emprical.
Based on their reputation, I was serously considering the Cambridge MagiDac, but it had too much stuff that I don't need.
USB cable:
> cheap: Belkin 2.0 - $14 for 6' @ JR.com (I have one on the way)
> not cheap: Kimber B Bus - $65 for 2m @ needledoctor.com
Cryo Parts - 6' for $70
> unaffordable: Locus Design Axis - 3' for $549 (!)
Hope you enjoy the MagiDac.
|
I thought about buying the Valab DAC from the Pacific Valve Company as I heard so many good things about it. Ultimately, the rave reviews and the versatility of the dacMagic won me over. Were I to take the NOS route, I definitely would have purchased one of the Scott Nixon DACs.
I won't be able to see my gift before February 1st, but once I get it, I'll be sure to post.
Best,
MP
|
Prof,
Congrats, I'm confident that you'll be happily surprised at how good this thing sounds.
Perhaps due to a brief brain cramp, I said I use the DACMagic with a Mac on my piano & that's wrong. It's a PC - the DACMagic is not an approved "MAC compatable" device. Just wanted to be sure I didn't provide bad info.
Marty |
I posted earlier about the Valab Dac that I had problems with and have to say Kevin from Valab provided excellent customer service in taking care of the situation. Valab has settled in on the parts used for current production and are now using a 1ppm clock. The sound is excellent, shockingly good for a $180.00 Dac with USB, coax and toslink. If you can try one that is broken in you may be very suprised, no piece of equipment is all things to all people but I would put the Valab on the short list for Dacs to try. |
Thank you for your input Tobias.
I can purchase the Canare cable for next to nothing ($14.50 US):
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/shopbycable/L5CFB.htm
Given how modest my system is, I think that the dacMagic and and Canare should do what I need it to. My understanding is that any good USB cable should be fine.
My birthday is February 1, and my wonderful wife already has the dacMagic on order to make certain that it arrives on time.
Thanks again,
MP
|
Congrats on your choice!
Two budget cables and a step up from budget.
Budget: Apogee Wyde Eye, Canare L-5CFB
Step Up: VH Audio cryo Pulsar
No matter which cable you choose, get a 1.5-meter length of it. This will ensure that signal reflections between the two cable ends interfere as little as possible with the DAC's clock timing.
BTW others may recommend other cables; I'm only recommending things I've personally tried. |
I've finally decided....
I'm going to go with the Cambridge Audio dacMagic. It has received favourable reviews, and I'll be able to use it with both my PC and with my HK CD player.
Any recommendations for a budget RCA/RCA digital cable?
Best,
MP
|
@Ckorody--
I have given that a good deal of thought. My HK CD player has a digital out, so if I purchased the Cambridge Audio DAC, it could serve a dual purpose. On the other hand, it seems improbable that the CA DAC could be as good as the Scott Nixon given all of the extra features at roughly the same price point, unless, of course, they can buy and build at a discount because of volume.
The CA DAC has received very good reviews, and I am eagerly awaiting reviews of Nixon's new DACs.
Best,
MP
|
With the Cambridge it seems as though you will be paying for an awful lot of marketing and a large number of features you most likely will never use... |
So, my birthday is fast approaching (February 1st) and I'll have to decide soon. I think that it is going to be one of these two options:
1) Cambridge Audio DacMagic http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=320
2) Scott Nixon USB.UFO.JF http://www.scott-nixon.com/dac.htm
The former is a touch more expensive, but I can use it for more than one purpose. The latter may sound better, but without hearing them side by side, it's hard to say. They represent two very different approaches: Oversampling vs. NOS and multiple interfaces vs. USB only.
So, what to buy then.... |
I am truly tempted by the new DacMagic, but the Scott Nixon Dacs also sound very, very appealing.... |
@Cwaigy--
Let's try to meet once you return from your co-op.
Best,
MP
|
Marty, thanks for the review of the DacMagic.
To the OP, add the Nuforce Icon to your list. |
Prof,
I use a DacMagic with my digital piano via Mac into a quality stereo as a supplement to the piano's internal sound system. It sounds great! I use a Benchmark DAC-1 in my main system. In order for direct comparion, I hauled the DacMagic, (all 3 lbs of it) up into the listening room for a brief comparo. They sound quite different, but in that system both sounded wonderful. My preference changed with the source material! I'm afraid that personal taste will overwhelm other considerations in this decision. The only piece of advice I can offer - try to audition in your application before you buy. Always good advice, but really critical here - IMHO.
The comparison also leads me to blieve that the DacMagic (and perhaps many other current models in this price range)ofeer(s) excellent value.
Good Luck
Marty |
Oh wow! I'm a student at UT. Hilarious to see a link to UT's website from an audio forum. I have the Blue Circle USB Thingee, if you would like to hear it, I'm sure we could arrange something, but it would have to be soon as I leave for my co-op residence on the 26th. |
An update--I am holding off on the purchase temporarily: I have a birthday in February, and that seems like a fine occasion for this purchase. I'm down to one of three choices:
1) Inexpensive: The Moon Dac at http://www.pacificvalve.us/GigaMoon.html seems in many respects similar to the Gigalabs and Keces models. Buying it domestically might offer certain advantages.
2) Moderate: I'll have to decide between the Cambridge Audio dacMagic or one of the new offerings from Scott Nixon. The former has fine reviews and offers many options. The latter, however, works with just one input type rather than many, and I can't help but wonder if that focus might yield a better product. His past DACs have been received favourably, and I'm eager to hear about the latest offerings. |
In my search, i finally decided on the Keces da-151 and i am very pleased. Even though it has the "pedestrian" burr-brown 2702 dac that seems to get flogged here often, the implementation won me over. This piece is a one input, usb only device and not a jack of all trades, master of none dac with multiple inputs. Getting the usb interface done right was the most important to me because that was the way i was going to stream the music out from my computer. I figured i had a better chance of meeting this requirement by going with a usb specific dac like the Keces. Also, i like the full sized ac inlet and power cord on the Keces, assuring at least an adequate power supply.
Like you music prof., my budget was very similar to yours when i pulled the trigger. Just watch the power supply in these units. Some are self-powered which are good for a portable unit to lug around, but not so good for a home-based set-up. Some even have a half-assed walwart power supply like the fubar III which could be better as well.
Good luck in your search and thank you for starting this informative thread for others to enjoy!
Regards,
Paul |
Hello Phil--
You are not alone. Please see:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/valab-dac-first-impressions-378459/index5.html
It seems to me that the Pacific Valve Co's NOS USB DAC is pretty much the same thing, but available states side.
I am still waiting to hear about the Scott Nixon option. When I sent him an email, he replied within hours with what he has available at the moment. I've heard really good things about his work. He has two different USB NOS DACs--one solid state, the other tube. The latter is out of stock, but I am hoping that he might have one come in on trade and be able to sell it to me in my price range. For those interested, you can see his work here:
http://www.scott-nixon.com/dac.htm
Best,
MP
|
Hello All, I have the Valab Dac, actually it is the second one, 6 of the 8 dac chip capacitors began to fail, the ends of the cap opened up and the contents began to vacate the cap casing. This first dac sounded extremely open and transparant at the same time a little steely and ragged, it was also extremely 3 dimensional, moreso than anything I had heard. Problem is, was I hearing a dac with bad caps, it sounded so good I was willing to overlook the bad points and work on balancing the sound. The second is going through break in at this time, so far it is smoother and less vivid and not as 3 dimensional. The Valab has gone through some changes, one day there were pictures of the dac on his E-Bay ad with different caps and a slightly different board layout, well my second dac arrived with a mixture of some new caps that were only available for a couple of days then Kevin posted some pictures with Rubycon caps and Nec caps, according to his ad this is what he will be using in future production. In any case, it is well worth the asking price. |
So, this is where I am now:
1) Purchase the inexpensive Moon DAC from the US-based Pacific valve company
2) Wait a couple of days to hear what Scott Nixon has available in my price range
3) Discuss purchasing the CA DacMagic with my wife.
Even though things are likely to change over the next year or two, for the price range that I'm considering, it isn't worth taking a wait and see approach. If things get much better five years down the road, then I'll have something to request for a gift (my wife buys me really, really nice gifts--iPods, 42" plasma screen, pro audio equipment, & etc)
MP
|
Pacific Valvel certainly does put a US face on the product. The primary thing that came up when I researched them is that the products they sell have been properly specced and built for the US market - 117/60.
At the time one could order the same products directly from the factory for less money but apparently some people did not get US optimized equipment.
Prof - service is expensive - the product has to provide the dealer and the manufacturer margins...
And of course since this is a digital product, Moore's law more or less applies - someone will build more performance into a piece of silicon for the same money within 6-18 months.
It is axiomatic with these kinds of products that whatever you buy will shortly be rendered obsolete or at least old hat. It is equally true that it will always perform to its design level.
So it comes down to buying when you want or need something, knowing that something better or at least slightly different is coming. |
Given that the interest in USB DACs is relatively new, I wonder if the next year or so will bring reasonably good budget audiophile products to the market. I think there's a decent likelihood of that. But as Musicman suggested, the more expensive chipset seems to be a key ingredient, as does some firmware that has to be licensed. Both of these imply steeper price points. Take my comments with a grain of salt, they're just my impressions based on investigating this topic for the past few months. |
Scott Nixon's site indicates that he is in the process of revamping his USB line. I dropped him a line to see if he has anything in my price range.
I agree that I won't be able to afford true audiophile equipment in my range. Given that money is a real concern, I'm looking for that sweet spot of intersection between price and value. I purchased by Musical Fidelity B1 for about $200, and while it isn't perfect, it is awfully good value. My speakers ran about $600. As such, they have many, many shortcomings, but for the price they aren't bad.
Given that the interest in USB DACs is relatively new, I wonder if the next year or so will bring reasonably good budget audiophile products to the market. I am heartened by the enthusiastic reviews of the Vintage Audio Labs, the Keyes, and the Giga Labs Moon DAC.
I was mentioning the Pacific Valve Company as they have a US-based operation out of Chicago. Perhaps that might have quality control / customer service implications?
Best,
MP
|
As Steve would point out products like the BC Thingee, and HagUSB use the same PCM2704 USB chip already used in many consumer DACs. So the benefit of one of these would be negated. That's where the Bel Canto converter box is superior... not quite to the Empirical level but an improvement over the common units.
I believe the old Waveterminal U24 used the TAS1020A chip, though details are sketchy. A newer version is available as well, though again details are lacking. It's closer to $200. |
Well drubin - I don't know - I am not flogging the Hagerman (always upfront about what I have owned or tried) just trying to provide some historical context.
If you have spent the time and money messing with two box systems you know just how hard it is to achieve a satisfactory SPDIF implementation.
That is the main reason I recommend bailing on a USB > SPDIF solution and going straight USB. Plus going direct is much more cost effective which is a major concern for the Prof who started this thread.
I doubt that you will argue that you can get a great two box solution for $350... the SPDIF cable will cost more then that... I am prepared to say that he can get a great direct USB solution for that. (No, not reference but that is a silly game since he is not in that market)
Prof - Pacific imports some very slick gear from China (not Taiwan)
Scott Nixon was the first guy in the water with a tube dac which has had the dual virtues of being well regarded and very reasonably priced. Plus there are enough of them out there that you can probably pick one up used - and you can definitely sell it when you want to try something else. |
You can do USB cheap, but it sounds it. The Hagerman device does the job but does not sound good. I'm looking for USB playback that equals or beats transport to DAC. Obviously, Ckorody and I disagree.
The Bel Canto device is available but is not on the Web site. Contact them or a BC dealer. |
I didn't see it on the site as a product, but there is the odd review, so they must be in some level of production.
On a different note, has anyone done business with the Pacific Valve & Electric Company? They have a few options worth consideration. I am also thinking about Scott Nixon's offerings: http://www.scott-nixon.com/dac.htm
MP
|
The USB to SPDIF box need not be an arm and a leg. There was a brilliant small device called the Waveterminal U24 which helped launch this whole evolution a few years ago. Trick is that it got its power from the USB cable which carries 5v - ergo no costly power supply, no big case etc.
Then Hagerman came out with one.
The hot ticket now for under $200 is the BlueCircle USB Thingee.
All these devices take the data from the USB and move it over to SPDIF. Neat, simple and compact. I can tell you from experience that I found that it took a very good SPDIF cable to make this work its best.
I do not believe that USB implementation is all that difficult. What I believe is that most audio manufacturers have their head in the sand hoping that the whole computer thing will go away.
That is why companies like Keces (and there are many others, just my current fave) who have a global perspective on the mass market are investing in figuring it out and evolving it.
What is wrong with this picture? USB/SPDIF conversion box $500, SPDIF cable $500, DAC $2500, allowance for power cords and tweaks $750... You don't need to spend $4,200 to get great sound from a $100 hard drive and some free software... think about it. |
Is the Bel Canto USB converter available yet? |
Ouch! I am sure that it is worth it (rave reviews) but that places this option way out of my price range. I'll have to wait until later in life to purchase that level of quality.
What I am looking at is nowhere near the level of the Bel Canto, but it has to be better than using my M-Audio FastTrack Pro as the DAC. |
Yes, that's just the "box". It's $495, the DAC3 is $2495. |
>>The Bel Canto box is $500. Includes a short length of Stereovox digital cable. I don't believe they are gouging us at this price. Rather, it shows what it takes to do USB right.<<
Just to clarify--that is the price of the connector and the DAC is a separate purchase? If so, this product may be out of my price range. |
The Bel Canto box is $500. Includes a short length of Stereovox digital cable. I don't believe they are gouging us at this price. Rather, it shows what it takes to do USB right. |
Most of the USB DAC chips used are not up to the task at hand. There are only a handful of DACs that "properly" implement the use of USB, i.e. the Benchmark DAC-1 (which has other deterrents). You'll repeatedly see chips such as the PCM2702/4/7 and CS102-108 turning up in these products. Bel Canto is a fairly expensive DAC that is looking to better the USB connection, however I'd prefer it in one box not two. Not to say, as an above poster, that having everything in one box improves sound quality. If it's done right it can. A poorly designed or built integrated amp will suffer as ideally these units will have separation between them. Still less expensive when built properly?
|
I've thought about taking that route but wondered if having one more converter in the line would be a plus or a minus. Do you have an idea how much the Bel Canto accessory box will cost? A product like that would open a wider range of DAC options.
While I realize that getting the USB connection set is tricky, I wonder if the new crop of DACs have the wrinkles ironed out? The DacMagic is getting pretty good reviews. |
A little more information:
Model Price Type / Chip Inputs Outputs Other
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
$399
US
USB, Coax, Optical
RCA/XLR
KECES 151 USB DAC
$225
US/Burr Brown PCM 2702 ME49710 OP-Amp
USB
RCA (No Headphone)
Musical Fidelity V-DAC
$300 US
USB, Coax, Optical
RCA (No headphone)
Some reviews prefer DacMagic
Musiland MD 10 USB DAC
$300 US/CS4398
USB, Coax, Optical, BNC
RCA, Headphone
Styleaudio Carat HD1-V
L130
US/Burr Brown PCM2704
USB Optical
RCA /Headphone
Headphone output weak
Yulong DAH 1 USB DAC
$280 US/AD1955 SPDIF, Coaxial, USB, analog input (RCA)
RCA / Headphone
Remote Control / Superior headphone amp
Giga Lab Moon DAC
$185
NOS 1543
USB, Coax, Optical
RCA (No headphone)
Vintage Audio Lab DAC
$180 NOS TDA 1543
USB / RCA /Coax/optical
RCA (No headphone)
capacitors for each DAC may not be what is claimed in literature: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/valab-dac-first-impressions-378459/index5.html
So, if I go budget, I'm leaning toward the Vintage Audio Lab; if I splurge, I think that the Cambridge Audio may be the way to go.
If anyone here owns any of these products and would like to comment....
Best,
MP
|
It's not enough to simply have a USB input on a DAC. Implementation is tricky and only a few manufacturers are doing a really good job of it. (I've ordered a Keces to check it out.) For example, with my Bel Canto DAC3, I prefer Toslink out of my Mac Mini to USB out to the Bel Canto's USB input. Bel Canto has just introduced an accessory box to convert USB to S/PDIF. They claim superior sonics as well as 24/96 capability. You are definitely not hearing the Bel Canto at its best when using the USB input. And they are not alone in this regard -- most manufacturers are not doing USB right.
|
>>If there ever was a situation where GIGO applies, upsampling is it LOL<<
I can't help but think that this is a terribly important consideration for USB DACs. I suspect that I would enjoy the Cambridge Audiolabs or the Musical Fidelity when listening to lossless sources or when using a CD transport. On the other hand, I have well over 200 gigs of digital music that is not lossless, and with that or streaming sources (I use the online classical music library for my teaching), the NOS might actually be a better choice.
I am on creating a final short list soon... |
The upsampling is a beast of a different color entirely - my only extended experience with it was with the TriVista. It was very smooth with no obvious artifacts but one day I just got up and turned it off. I just didn't like it.
Since that experience I have noticed that more and more people divide into two camps - NOS and upsample.
I suspect that this is one of those YMMV issues - either on the hardware side where the issue is how resolving your system is and what is your room like; on the software side where the issue may have something to do with what kinds of music and recordings you enjoy; and finally on the wetware side - how much have you listened and what do you listen for.
If there ever was a situation where GIGO applies, upsampling is it LOL
I tend to agree with you that it is unlikely you will hear much difference between the three DACs you mentioned. If you can, compare the DAC and Op Amp parts, and also try to get a sense of the power supply.
All things being equal it sounds as though you have done a good job in matching your system needs, budget and technology with the Vintage unit.
Give it a go and let us know what you think! |
