Thank you for posting.
I just realized that the Apogee may well be out of my price range unless I find a good deal on a used one.
I understand that an increasing number of people are considering this sort of approach, so I hope that this thread may be of use to others as well as to me.
Best,
--Patrick a.k.a Music Doc |
"Your list indicates you have done a doctoral on the subject, "Prof". Jolly good show."
Thank you for the kind words. More information here:
http://www.utoledo.edu/as/music/faculty/p_fairfield.html
Best,
--Patrick |
I just visited the Audio Magus site, and I don't see the MagiDac listed. Is that a discontinued item? If so, perhaps I can find a used one at a good price.
I am both excited and riddled with indecision as it seems that there are a number of possibilities, even buying new, that match my budget.
I'll keep posting as I move forward just in case someone else is considering a similar purchase.
At the risk of perseverating, thank you once again to all for your valuable advice.
Best,
--Patrick
|
Both of you make an excellent point about this list being somewhat long. I wish that I could provide a cogent argument for the inclusion of each item on the list, but the embarrassing, sad truth of the matter is that I have no idea of what I am doing.
What is important to me?
1) Quality of sound with a budget. Clearly, the former is quite subjective while I can specify the latter (<$350 or thereabouts). If it helps, some of my favourite speakers include the KEF 105 reference series, or on a budget, the Kef 103.3 reference pair. The best amp that I ever owned was the Classe A1 (magnificent for the money). I have three amplifiers at the moment: Music Fidelity B1 integrated, an old Luxman receiver (back when they were a decent choice) and an Harmon Kardon reciever (vintage between when they were okay but earlier than when they became pieces of dung). By far, I like the B1 best.
I listen to a wide variety of music but am most critical when listening to Jazz or Classical. A clear sound stage, mellow but accurate highs, crisp and controlled (even at the expense of range) bass, and lack of listener fatigue rank top among my concerns.
2)Versatility: My computer has both firewire and USB outputs, so I could go either way. I also have an HK CD player with RCA optical out, so if this device could serve double duty, that would be a nice plus.
Thank you to both for asking questions to help me to clarify what I'm trying to do.
Best,
--Patrick |
An update:
Given the price range that I have in mind, I'm leaning toward new rather than used. The Cambridge Audio DACMagic has received favourable reviews, even edging out the Musical Fidelity V-DAC. Peter Daniel's USB DAC continues to receive high praise, but I haven't seen direct comparisons with the DACMagic. Ditto for the KECES DA-151 USB DAC.
Best,
Patrick |
http://whathifi.com/Review/Musical-Fidelity-V-DAC/ offered a positive review but indicated that the latest Cambridge Audio DACMagic offered better value.
Of course, I would love to have an A/B comparison.
My computer does have a firewire output, but it appears that the Apogee mini-dac runs about $1000. Do you think it possible to find one used in my price range?
Two things:
1) I know that I am asking for a lot for a little
2) I really appreciate everyone's input; since I can't listen to all of these options, it is great to have opinions from those who have had the opportunity to listen to some of these items.
Thanks again to all,
--Patrick
|
Given that Mr. Moore lives within driving distance from me, that is quite attractive.
A little searching makes me think that his products even at a used price might fall well outside my price range. I'll keep an eye open just in case!!!
I suppose it wouldn't hurt to drop him a line either...
Best,
--Patrick
|
I have a piece of hardware similar to the Focusrite--an M-Audio Fast Track Pro that I use for dumping midi and misc. audio into ProTools. While I find this to a useful piece of hardware, I never considered the output to be that good. I suspect that the DACs with the M-Audio aren't quite as good as those in the Focusrite.
The M-Audio does offer digital output, however. I wonder if I could use that with a non-USB DAC but remain concerned that it would be one more piece of equipment (and an extra variable) in the line.
I placed an offer for an iRoc that's listed on this forum, but I doubt the seller will consider it as it is worth much more than I can afford to offer for now. |
Here is a little more information--I'll have to fill in some blanks....
AudioSector USB NOS DAC Peter Daniel
$280
NOS
USB Others?
Bersesford TC-7510 MK6/4
£200
US twin WM8740
Digital Only
Blue Circle USB
$190
?
USB/SPDIF
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
$399
USB/Coax/Optical
DIYEDEN SVDAC05 USB DAC
$199
CS4398 / PCM2704
Fubar III
$350
PCM2702/OPA2604AP
USB
KECES 151 USB DAC
$225
NOS PCM 2702
USB
MHDT Paradisea
&599
NOS Philips TDA 1545A
USB / toslink / coaxial
Musical Fidelity V-DAC
$300
USB/Coax/Optical
Musiland MD 10 Bit Select USB DAC
$300
USCS4398
USB/Coax/BNC
Styleaudio Carat HD1-V
£130
Burr Brown 2704
USB
Vintage Audio Lab DAC
$180
NOS TDA 1543
USB/Digital
Yulong DAH 1 USB DAC
$280
AD1955
USB/Coax
|
I have much more to do, of course. I've dropped the Apogee Mini-DAC from my list as it is too expensive, the Beresford as it hasn't a USB or Firewire input, and the Squeezebox Classic as it is not what I thought it was. I'm likely to remove the Blue Circle and Fubar as I don't think that they compete with the others for my intended purpose.
The Cambridge Audio DacMagic seems to get slightly better reviews than the Musical Fidelity V-DAC, but I am still open minded about the the latter. If it is anywhere near as good as their other products, it has to be worth consideration. Finally, I'm finding it difficult to learn more about the AudioSector USB NOS DAC by Peter Daniel. I remain interested though...
My so-called short list is about to get a good deal shorter.
Thanks again to all for posting,
--Patrick
|
The Keces 151 USB DAC is definitely on my short list.
At the risk of being contrary, while the DAC is simply a converter, it does seem that the implementation of the conversion is somewhat important. For example, NOS vs. up sampling DACs sound somewhat different. Within each of those categories, some work better than others (for example, my M-Audio FastTrack Pro is a DAC, but I find the sound to be less than ideal).
At the moment, if I can spend more, I'm leaning toward the Musical Fidelity, Cambridge Audio, and Musiland DACs. Otherwise, the Keces, and Vintage Audio Labs seem like good choices.
Considerations:
* In each category, what will sound best?
* Do I need inputs other than the USB? Not at the moment, but someday perhaps?
* Are there differences in reliability? Will I receive good support in the off chance that there is a problem with the product?
* I own a pair of Grado SR-120s: perhaps I will want this to do double duty as a headphone amp?
I am going to look around a little more and update the listing that I started above.
Best,
|
What a great post! Apart from confirming what I have always thought to be true (my Musical Fidelity B1's specs aren't any better, and indeed are much worse than many Sony, Pioneer, & etc. components) you raise important issues regarding cost vs. service. For $150, I'm likely to discard and purchase a new DAC should it fail. On the other hand, if the $400 Cambridge Audio DAC failed, I'd be quite reluctant to toss it.
Having flexibility of inputs is not a bad thing. As you note, many will become obsolete, but I suspect that USB has a good deal of life left in it, and should it be replaced, that adapters of one sort or another will extend the lifespan a touch. I tend to keep older equipment when it works well, so that might be okay.
Putting aside the truly inexpensive options, I wonder how much difference I would hear between the Keces, the Audio Sector and the Vintage Audiolabs NOS DACs--probably much less of a difference than between NOS and up sampling models. If I take the NOS route, the Vintage Audio Labs offers a variety of inputs (I'll use USB primarily, but on occasion the digital in from my rather harsh sounding HK CD player). If I take the up sampling route, I'll have to spend a good bit more.
I am learning a good deal from all of the input offered here, and once again, thanks to all.
Best, |
Thank you for your input Tobias.
I can purchase the Canare cable for next to nothing ($14.50 US):
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/shopbycable/L5CFB.htm
Given how modest my system is, I think that the dacMagic and and Canare should do what I need it to. My understanding is that any good USB cable should be fine.
My birthday is February 1, and my wonderful wife already has the dacMagic on order to make certain that it arrives on time.
Thanks again,
MP
|
>>If there ever was a situation where GIGO applies, upsampling is it LOL<<
I can't help but think that this is a terribly important consideration for USB DACs. I suspect that I would enjoy the Cambridge Audiolabs or the Musical Fidelity when listening to lossless sources or when using a CD transport. On the other hand, I have well over 200 gigs of digital music that is not lossless, and with that or streaming sources (I use the online classical music library for my teaching), the NOS might actually be a better choice.
I am on creating a final short list soon... |
A little more information:
Model Price Type / Chip Inputs Outputs Other
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
$399
US
USB, Coax, Optical
RCA/XLR
KECES 151 USB DAC
$225
US/Burr Brown PCM 2702 ME49710 OP-Amp
USB
RCA (No Headphone)
Musical Fidelity V-DAC
$300 US
USB, Coax, Optical
RCA (No headphone)
Some reviews prefer DacMagic
Musiland MD 10 USB DAC
$300 US/CS4398
USB, Coax, Optical, BNC
RCA, Headphone
Styleaudio Carat HD1-V
L130
US/Burr Brown PCM2704
USB Optical
RCA /Headphone
Headphone output weak
Yulong DAH 1 USB DAC
$280 US/AD1955 SPDIF, Coaxial, USB, analog input (RCA)
RCA / Headphone
Remote Control / Superior headphone amp
Giga Lab Moon DAC
$185
NOS 1543
USB, Coax, Optical
RCA (No headphone)
Vintage Audio Lab DAC
$180 NOS TDA 1543
USB / RCA /Coax/optical
RCA (No headphone)
capacitors for each DAC may not be what is claimed in literature: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/valab-dac-first-impressions-378459/index5.html
So, if I go budget, I'm leaning toward the Vintage Audio Lab; if I splurge, I think that the Cambridge Audio may be the way to go.
If anyone here owns any of these products and would like to comment....
Best,
MP
|
I've thought about taking that route but wondered if having one more converter in the line would be a plus or a minus. Do you have an idea how much the Bel Canto accessory box will cost? A product like that would open a wider range of DAC options.
While I realize that getting the USB connection set is tricky, I wonder if the new crop of DACs have the wrinkles ironed out? The DacMagic is getting pretty good reviews. |
>>The Bel Canto box is $500. Includes a short length of Stereovox digital cable. I don't believe they are gouging us at this price. Rather, it shows what it takes to do USB right.<<
Just to clarify--that is the price of the connector and the DAC is a separate purchase? If so, this product may be out of my price range. |
Ouch! I am sure that it is worth it (rave reviews) but that places this option way out of my price range. I'll have to wait until later in life to purchase that level of quality.
What I am looking at is nowhere near the level of the Bel Canto, but it has to be better than using my M-Audio FastTrack Pro as the DAC. |
@Ckorody--
I have given that a good deal of thought. My HK CD player has a digital out, so if I purchased the Cambridge Audio DAC, it could serve a dual purpose. On the other hand, it seems improbable that the CA DAC could be as good as the Scott Nixon given all of the extra features at roughly the same price point, unless, of course, they can buy and build at a discount because of volume.
The CA DAC has received very good reviews, and I am eagerly awaiting reviews of Nixon's new DACs.
Best,
MP
|
I didn't see it on the site as a product, but there is the odd review, so they must be in some level of production.
On a different note, has anyone done business with the Pacific Valve & Electric Company? They have a few options worth consideration. I am also thinking about Scott Nixon's offerings: http://www.scott-nixon.com/dac.htm
MP
|
Scott Nixon's site indicates that he is in the process of revamping his USB line. I dropped him a line to see if he has anything in my price range.
I agree that I won't be able to afford true audiophile equipment in my range. Given that money is a real concern, I'm looking for that sweet spot of intersection between price and value. I purchased by Musical Fidelity B1 for about $200, and while it isn't perfect, it is awfully good value. My speakers ran about $600. As such, they have many, many shortcomings, but for the price they aren't bad.
Given that the interest in USB DACs is relatively new, I wonder if the next year or so will bring reasonably good budget audiophile products to the market. I am heartened by the enthusiastic reviews of the Vintage Audio Labs, the Keyes, and the Giga Labs Moon DAC.
I was mentioning the Pacific Valve Company as they have a US-based operation out of Chicago. Perhaps that might have quality control / customer service implications?
Best,
MP
|
So, this is where I am now:
1) Purchase the inexpensive Moon DAC from the US-based Pacific valve company
2) Wait a couple of days to hear what Scott Nixon has available in my price range
3) Discuss purchasing the CA DacMagic with my wife.
Even though things are likely to change over the next year or two, for the price range that I'm considering, it isn't worth taking a wait and see approach. If things get much better five years down the road, then I'll have something to request for a gift (my wife buys me really, really nice gifts--iPods, 42" plasma screen, pro audio equipment, & etc)
MP
|
Hello Phil--
You are not alone. Please see:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/valab-dac-first-impressions-378459/index5.html
It seems to me that the Pacific Valve Co's NOS USB DAC is pretty much the same thing, but available states side.
I am still waiting to hear about the Scott Nixon option. When I sent him an email, he replied within hours with what he has available at the moment. I've heard really good things about his work. He has two different USB NOS DACs--one solid state, the other tube. The latter is out of stock, but I am hoping that he might have one come in on trade and be able to sell it to me in my price range. For those interested, you can see his work here:
http://www.scott-nixon.com/dac.htm
Best,
MP
|
An update--I am holding off on the purchase temporarily: I have a birthday in February, and that seems like a fine occasion for this purchase. I'm down to one of three choices:
1) Inexpensive: The Moon Dac at http://www.pacificvalve.us/GigaMoon.html seems in many respects similar to the Gigalabs and Keces models. Buying it domestically might offer certain advantages.
2) Moderate: I'll have to decide between the Cambridge Audio dacMagic or one of the new offerings from Scott Nixon. The former has fine reviews and offers many options. The latter, however, works with just one input type rather than many, and I can't help but wonder if that focus might yield a better product. His past DACs have been received favourably, and I'm eager to hear about the latest offerings. |
@Cwaigy--
Let's try to meet once you return from your co-op.
Best,
MP
|
I am truly tempted by the new DacMagic, but the Scott Nixon Dacs also sound very, very appealing.... |
So, my birthday is fast approaching (February 1st) and I'll have to decide soon. I think that it is going to be one of these two options:
1) Cambridge Audio DacMagic http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=320
2) Scott Nixon USB.UFO.JF http://www.scott-nixon.com/dac.htm
The former is a touch more expensive, but I can use it for more than one purpose. The latter may sound better, but without hearing them side by side, it's hard to say. They represent two very different approaches: Oversampling vs. NOS and multiple interfaces vs. USB only.
So, what to buy then.... |
I've finally decided....
I'm going to go with the Cambridge Audio dacMagic. It has received favourable reviews, and I'll be able to use it with both my PC and with my HK CD player.
Any recommendations for a budget RCA/RCA digital cable?
Best,
MP
|
I thought about buying the Valab DAC from the Pacific Valve Company as I heard so many good things about it. Ultimately, the rave reviews and the versatility of the dacMagic won me over. Were I to take the NOS route, I definitely would have purchased one of the Scott Nixon DACs.
I won't be able to see my gift before February 1st, but once I get it, I'll be sure to post.
Best,
MP
|
My wife couldn't bear to make me wait. I've received my unit in black and am breaking it in now.
Details:
Speakers: B&W DM 610s
Amplifier: Musical Fidelity B1
Sound files: .flac
Software: JRiver Media Player / ASIO4All
Upon opening the box, I had three thoughts:
1) The unit seems reasonably well built. The case and controls feel solid
2) It comes with a wall wart--I wonder if this results in less interference by having the power supply away from the unit or if that was a cost-cutting measure
3) I don't believe that I've ever seen such a cheap USB cable in my life.
So, I connected the unit with a better USB cable, and played the Dead Can Dance Ubiquitous Mr. Lovegrove. I was floored by the imaging and sound stage. The latter exceeded the dimensions of my listening room. Next, I played the Chemical Brothers Setting Sun. With both of these excerpts, I was very impressed with tight controlled bass.
Before listening to more demanding music, I created a play list of very eclectic music and let the DAC run for about 36 hours. I played a number of excerpts (William Grant Still's Afro-American Symphony, Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time, CPE Bach's Symphonia, & etc.) and was disappointed in the somewhat harsh nature of the highs. The bass continued to be extraordinarily well behaved, and the mids were quite warm.
I let the unit play for another 30 hours or so, and while the highs still seem a touch harsh, they seem to be mellowing somewhat. I am hoping that trend will continue.
I'll keep you posted,
|
Update:
After an extended burn-in period, I'm very pleased. The sound stage and imaging continues to be wonderful beyond expectations for a product of this price. The control of the bass--both the punchiness and clarity of detail--still amazes me. The mid range has become even more mellow bringing to mind the image of caramel. The high end has tamed considerably and is quite good.
In short, I love how responsive and musical this product is. The only weakness might be that the high end might be smidgen forward for some listeners, but otherwise, I find this to be a very musical and accurate piece of equipment and well worth the money.
MP
|
Dear Tobias--
Would you please elaborate for the ill-informed?
Thank you!
MP
|
Thank you very much for the information--it is very helpful.
I am going to do a little research to see what is available in the budget range.
The dacMagic is continuing to mellow over time. I wonder how long a typical burn in takes.... |
Did you allow the unit to have a good burn-in period before making a final judgment? After a couple of weeks, I have to say this unit sounds very good for the money. Admittedly, I have a laid back system (B&W speakers, Musical Fidelity amplifier) so it seems a good match.
Again, I'm very pleased with the imaging, dynamic bass, silky mid range, and satisfied with the reasonably well behaved high end. As for how this compares to the NOS DACs, I can't really say. I listen to a loot of Jazz and Classical in addition to ambient, electronica, rock, non-commercial country/regional music, and the authenticity of the instruments seems very good for the price.
This is not the best quality that I've heard (that would be a wonderful turntable with a fantastic cartridge--I forget what they were exactly) but I think that this unit offers good value for the money.
Music Prof
|
