Given that I use Jena Labs Pathfinders as interconnects and as speaker cables, are you suggesting as Tireguy and Gladstone, that I simply use four gauge wire as a speaker cable for the bass? |
I triwire Alon Circes with a single run of Discovery Essential to the bass, and a biwire run of Discovery Essential (internally biwired) to the treble and mids. This improves bass impact considerably over my previous single triwire run. Of course, there is now two times as much copper going to the speakers.
Randy |
Basically, what I'm saying is: don't waste your money on expensive bass cables. But for goodness sake, get rid of those jumpers, and use separate runs for the rest of the speaker. It should open up considerably and provide a smoother, fuller sound. |
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No-I'm suggesting you use separate runs of Jena to the midrange and treble. And that you use a heavy gauge copper cable that costs, say, $400-500 for the bass. At 200hz or below, you just need to pump that current into the bass. |
You are right Bill, in theory. In a perfect world having everything the same would be ideal, however, we all know nothing is ideal. I highly doubt that any one would be able to hear a difference of a parallel run of 10ga car audio power cable and dreamdancers on the bass. I don't mean to make it seem that black and white, but the human ear simply can't hear the subtle details in the bass region like it can in the midrange and treble. There are many reasons for this, though there is really no need to get into them :)
Resistance isn't much of an issue, in particular with the cables you use! We can do a little testing if you want, I can bring my 6ft valkyre's down- if they will work- and we can see what the deal is. I think you'll be surprised at what you hear, or don't hear. You have to remember that only part of your speaker is active and that part is fully adjustable to compensate for timing, phase and volume. The bass is getting a speaker level input then has to convert it to digital and amplify the signal then convert it back to analog and get it to the speaker(s), and your not having timing/PRaT issues now! I can't see how changing the cables would effect this even in an imperfect world. It sure would be interesting to try different cables I am sure you will get an improvement, but I don't think its worth taking a risk if you can't borrow/demo the cables first.
You know now that I think about it Phil Collins may just sound a little better with dreamdancers on the bass :) |
Jacob,
I'm not sure I really understand your comment. I've been lead to believe that it's necessary to use the same length of wire to all parts of the speaker to insure proper timing and capacitance. I would expect wire of different sizes, gauges and types to produce unexpected distortion.
Am I off?
Also, are you suggesting that I dump the fancy cables in lieu of home made?
Bill |
Bill--for the bass use a heavy copper cable--doesn't have to be super-expensive. Use separate runs of the same model wire for the mids and tweeters. Forget the jumpers. |
The responses probe the question, is the additional benefit worth the cost? I don't know. Certainly the VR-11's need no more base, as they are adjustable. I am mostly concerned with pace, speed and musicality. I will write to Tenor to inquire if the use of three sets of wires produces a risk to either the amps or the speakers. Secondly, I'll attempt to borrow two pairs of eight foot Jena Pathfinders so that I have three sets to work with. I am open to all possibilities including that it makes no difference at all. Given the room and the equipment, it seems foolish not to go the extra mile to learn if it the multiple wiring matters. What I don't think I can muster is a biwired interconnect to run two amps per speaker.
Bill E |
The designer of the amp should be able to give some indication but there is a lot of uncertainty because you are dealing with multiple variables. As a general rule though excessive capacitance will increase the likelihood of amplifier oscillation and instability.
The cables based upon two layers of foil are long and effective capacitors. Don't use them in either long runs of speaker cable or in multiple runs where the capacitance will add up. I don't use them period but they are probably safe in short single runs for most amplifiers.
My personal opinion is that either bi wiring or tri-wiring isn't a real cost effective tweak. Especially when you are dealing with expensive designer cables. If you want to see the effects of bi & tri-wiring buy some inexpensive yet well designed speaker cable and give it a try yourself. That way you can make a decision based on first hand experience before spending big dollars on three runs of high dollar cables. |
Hey Bill this is pure speculation but with your particular speakers the bass cabinets are two of the tri-wire run you are considering. Knowing what I do about bass and your speakers, all the speaker cables are doing is transfering a linelevel signal that needs to be converted to something the onboard amps can read(which is digital in your case). I would try using something of a high gauge(something not foolishly expensive) and see what happens before you tri-wire with dreamdancers :)
From my experience biwiring bass panels, the human ear is incapable of discerning the extreme subtleties in the bass region. So don't waste a lot of money trying! I don't know what your bass cabinets are crossed over at but its got to be real low.
Also when you get a chance send me Paul's number so I can give him a hard time :^) |
Ah!
Now, this helps. Tell me more about capacitance. I use Tenor 300 monoblocks. Who do I ask about the multiple runs?
Tenor? Are there other issues to be concerned about? |
If you are going to do multiple runs make sure you go with something relatively low in capacitance. You are going to be effectively tripling the single run capacitance and depending upon your amp it could cause some oscillation problems. |
Bill,
Sorry if I didn't really get to the root of your question, but I can't be much help there. I briefly used some bi-wire Audioquests on my Alons w/some jumpers, until I found the Black Orpheus. It was some time ago, and I don't remember too much of the detail. I do recall the tri-wire adding clarity in the bottom end. It was such an affordable option that I never considered going away from triwiring w/that speaker. I never tried bi or tri amping. Cheers, Spencer |
Bill E,
I have tried with a single Klout (passive), 3 Klouts (passive) and 3 Klouts (aktive). The difference between
one Klout and three Klouts in passive mode was marginaly
better, in aktive mode it was huge. Hector |
Sbank and Jond:
I am interested in the differences you find with mono wired, bi-wired and tri-wired. Also, if you have tried mutliple amps.
Your responses are what wires you prefer rather than the effect of the differences in multiple wiring. Please share that with me.
Bill E |
I'll second Spencer's recommendation, I currently own tri-wired Alons and use the Alon Black Orpheus cable to excellent effect. I would characterize it as being quite neutral. As an added bonus it is very flexible and easy to work with. Good luck! |
I used to own tri-wirable Acarian Alons. Their own Orpheus or Black Orpheus tri-wire was a good-sounding very affordable cable that allowed separate wiring to all drivers, with only one set of spades going to the one stereo amp. Simple, but effective...Cheers, Spencer |
Did you use one amp? Did you try more than one amp? How were the results?
Bill E |
I have Linn Espeks, for tri-wiring I can suggest the following:
1. Linn K-600 (3 color coded pairs, 12 awg.)
2. Kimber Kable Tri-Focal or Tri-Focal XL
3. Jenna Labs.
On my application the K-600 worked best, it's the same cable used inside the speakers and inside the amps (Linn's Klout). A friend allowed me to use the Tri-Focal XL and the Jenna Labs. I liked the Kimber better but the improvement couldn't justify the cost.
Regards,
Hector |
