What's wrong? Nuforce/Capri no better than Sunfire
Preface: this is regarding 2 channel analogue SQ. OK. I know it's very early in the comparison process, and I've "only" critically listened for 2-3 hours. But whereas listening to speakers has shown clear differences (to a point), and the move up the B&W ladder from 9NTs to N803s was SIGNIFICANT, I'm at a loss on the amp/preamp. The jump from my old $4k Pioneer flagship HT rcvr to the Sunfire TGA5200 was very significant. Less significant but noticeable was the jump from the Pio as preamp to the Sunfire TGP5 as pre. I then read a lot about how a good 2 channel pre would crush an HT pre/pro. So I got the Jeff Rowland Capri. Have listened for quite some time and struggled mightily to justify the Capri, but I just don't hear ANY major improvement. Maybe some VERY subtle things, but I can't even be sure of that. I also read that a good 2 channel amp would crush a multi-channel amp. So I just picked up the Nuforce ref 9SEv2, and I've gone back and forth with the TGA5200, unscientifically, but again, I don't hear any major difference, whether through the Capri or the Sunfire TGP5. Am I just missing "golden ears" and reached the audio equivalent of the Peter Principal" (rising to my level of incompetence)? Is the Sunfire stuff just that good? Is the old claim that all good amps/preamps should sound similar true? It just strikes me as odd that so many people on these audio boards hear huge differences and I don't. What's wrong?
The simple answer is - if you don't hear it, then it isn't there. When I was selling audio equipment back in the third century, I realized that people were more apt to notice what you take away than what you add. When you remove the other pieces and reinsert your Sunfire, you will either miss them or know that you don't need them. That's the real test.
There is no absolute sound any more than there is an absolute shirt. What you like is right no matter what Mr. Blackwell thinks.
well, there's nothing wrong with jeffkad's ears, sunfires are very good. in fact, i have had all the components you talk about and have kept the sunfires and no longer have the others. the flexibility of the tgp5 is great.
to me, they're all good components and preferring sunfires (or at least finding them equivalent) to the nuforce/capris is basically like preferring an audi to a bmw - same quality level.
now, if you'd preferred, say, an old sony receiver, i'd be puzzled...
Markwatkiss: HA, that's funny. The good news is things sound really really good right now. I have the cash to make it better, but it hasn't happened so far. I haven't given up, I still want that "AH HA" or OMG moment, but I think I've got to get out there and listen to some more stuff to get a frame of reference. Maybe I need to spend more money for better gear, or maybe I need to reallocate to gear that DOES make a difference for MY ears. I clearly hear the difference between better speakers when compared to each other, although I've listened to Quads and Wilson Sophias on their own and didn't have that OMG, gotta have it moment. I did have that moment years ago when I heard B&W 802s. Perhaps on the amp/preamp side, I need to try tubes, or real power monsters (big Bryston or big Mac). Maybe I need electronics that tickle my own personal differentiators: maybe I don't care for tight, clean sound and prefer a more euphonic sound. I do like visceral bass and euphonics, airiness, room filling sound.
Markwatkiss: HA, that's funny. The good news is things sound really really good right now. I have the cash to make it better, but it hasn't happened so far. I haven't given up, I still want that "AH HA" or OMG moment, but I think I've got to get out there and listen to some more stuff to get a frame of reference. Maybe I need to spend more money for better gear, or maybe I need to reallocate to gear that DOES make a difference. I clearly hear the difference between better speakers when compared to each other, although I've listened to Quads and Wilson Sophias on their own and didn't have that OMG, gotta have it moment. I did have that moment years ago when I heard B&W 802s. Perhaps on the amp/preamp side, I need to try tubes, or real power monsters (big Bryston or big Mac). Maybe I need electronics that tickle my own personal differentiators: maybe I don't care for tight, clean sound and prefer a more euphonic sound. I do like visceral bass and euphonics, airiness, room filling sound.
I was just discussing this with John B, aka jb8312, and I believe that (in addition to room condition) it's very likely that people have different levels of ability to hear/perceive differences in sound via electronics and speakers. Some can't hear the difference between a $500 recvr and a 10k amp, others can hear it clearly, but maybe can't make out the diff btwn a 3k amp and a 10k amp. I may be in the latter camp. I am not one to discount everyone else's sensibilities by concluding that there is no difference simply because I can't hear it. Way too many people CAN hear it. It may be that I've reached my discernable threshhold. I'm continuing to listen, and I may go to some dealers and listen to higher end stuff to see what I can and can't hear.
I have a sunfire ultimate receiver used in tandem with a VAC Avatar Super w HT pass through. My own experience has been, and this may be a tubes vs. SS thing, is that the VAC is significantly better with both my previous VSA-4JR and my current Devore Silverbacks (more pronounced) than the Sunfire. I am not sure if my receiver is comparable to your seperates. I don't think the gap is as big with HT probably because the listening is less critical.
You'd be amazed at how good Sunfires can sound. I run two Signature 600s (one channel through each) and use Marigo Ultra 5 power cords with them to filter out the RF. They are contenders at a very low price used.
Hey, it is what it is. If the less expensive item sounds better than the pricier one with more snob appeal, then so be it. Trust your ears. I've been down that road before where a lesser priced item held its own against a pricier item. Sell the pricier item, take the money and run. .
My experience has been that the only way to INITIALLY "home-in" on the differences between reasonably accurate electronics, in an efficient manner, is to listen to high quality audiophile-caliber recordings with which you are very familiar. Preferably recordings of unamplified instruments and/or human voice, recorded in a good hall, recorded with a minimal number of microphones, and minimal post-processing.
Once your consciousness has identified and homed in on the differences, it will then be more readily possible to hear those differences on a much wider range of material. You will then, and only then, be in a position to decide if they really matter to you, or are worth the extra cost.
As we all know, some people claim that all amplifiers sound the same, within their power capabilities. And at the other extreme, some people claim "huge" differences can result from reversing the orientation of an amplifier's ac line fuse. For 99.9% of us, I think it is safe to say that the truth lies somewhere in between those extremes, and will depend on the listener's hearing, the listener's sense of what is important in music reproduction, the other components in the system, the room, the type of music being listened to, and the quality of the recordings being listened to.
I suggest following the initial approach I described above, if you are not already, and resisting the temptation to judge until you have done so.
I'm not running to sell them yet, lol! I am going to keep them around for a while. But I've got to tell you, I'm kind of stunned that nothing dramatic is happening here, so figured I'd reach out to the agon community to get some opinions. Regarding warming up: I've left them on all night, and I will leave them on 24/7 as I do with all my components, and I've had them running music almost continuously since around 10am this morning (it's 4pm now). Don't think warmup is the issue. They're used, and I'm sure you broke them in thoroughly, so it's not a break-in issue either. Look, this may simply be a matter of my room or my ears making it not happen for me. But I've gotta ask, how long do I give it? Tvad, as usual, may be right. (PS-John, maybe you want to let me try those Brystons, lol!!!)
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