John:
I'm not running to sell them yet, lol! I am going to keep them around for a while. But I've got to tell you, I'm kind of stunned that nothing dramatic is happening here, so figured I'd reach out to the agon community to get some opinions. Regarding warming up: I've left them on all night, and I will leave them on 24/7 as I do with all my components, and I've had them running music almost continuously since around 10am this morning (it's 4pm now). Don't think warmup is the issue. They're used, and I'm sure you broke them in thoroughly, so it's not a break-in issue either. Look, this may simply be a matter of my room or my ears making it not happen for me. But I've gotta ask, how long do I give it? Tvad, as usual, may be right. (PS-John, maybe you want to let me try those Brystons, lol!!!) |
I was just discussing this with John B, aka jb8312, and I believe that (in addition to room condition) it's very likely that people have different levels of ability to hear/perceive differences in sound via electronics and speakers. Some can't hear the difference between a $500 recvr and a 10k amp, others can hear it clearly, but maybe can't make out the diff btwn a 3k amp and a 10k amp. I may be in the latter camp. I am not one to discount everyone else's sensibilities by concluding that there is no difference simply because I can't hear it. Way too many people CAN hear it. It may be that I've reached my discernable threshhold. I'm continuing to listen, and I may go to some dealers and listen to higher end stuff to see what I can and can't hear. |
Markwatkiss: HA, that's funny. The good news is things sound really really good right now. I have the cash to make it better, but it hasn't happened so far. I haven't given up, I still want that "AH HA" or OMG moment, but I think I've got to get out there and listen to some more stuff to get a frame of reference. Maybe I need to spend more money for better gear, or maybe I need to reallocate to gear that DOES make a difference. I clearly hear the difference between better speakers when compared to each other, although I've listened to Quads and Wilson Sophias on their own and didn't have that OMG, gotta have it moment. I did have that moment years ago when I heard B&W 802s. Perhaps on the amp/preamp side, I need to try tubes, or real power monsters (big Bryston or big Mac). Maybe I need electronics that tickle my own personal differentiators: maybe I don't care for tight, clean sound and prefer a more euphonic sound. I do like visceral bass and euphonics, airiness, room filling sound. |
Markwatkiss: HA, that's funny. The good news is things sound really really good right now. I have the cash to make it better, but it hasn't happened so far. I haven't given up, I still want that "AH HA" or OMG moment, but I think I've got to get out there and listen to some more stuff to get a frame of reference. Maybe I need to spend more money for better gear, or maybe I need to reallocate to gear that DOES make a difference for MY ears. I clearly hear the difference between better speakers when compared to each other, although I've listened to Quads and Wilson Sophias on their own and didn't have that OMG, gotta have it moment. I did have that moment years ago when I heard B&W 802s. Perhaps on the amp/preamp side, I need to try tubes, or real power monsters (big Bryston or big Mac). Maybe I need electronics that tickle my own personal differentiators: maybe I don't care for tight, clean sound and prefer a more euphonic sound. I do like visceral bass and euphonics, airiness, room filling sound. |
Csmgolf and Macro: I will be keeping both pieces in my system for the next few weeks. However, to macro's point, I have been switching in and out with the Sunfire pieces and the Nuforce and Capri, both together as a unit and individually, all combinations. Listening to short cuts to hear for differences in timbre, detail, etc, as well as complete songs and sets of songs, then switching and replaying. Really no difference at all, and certainly not the dramatic difference I was hoping to hear from not only much more expensive but also exceptionally well reviewed gear that supposedly played above it's price to boot(guidocorona, where are you?). To be honest, my wife actually heard and preferred a slight difference with the Capri vs the Sunfire pre/pro, using the Nuforce amp. But again, she thought the sound was very close and loved the sound either way. Where's my dramatic upgrade, LOL??? |
Both were purchased used, so I'm assuming (I know, a big assumption) that both were broken in already. I'm pretty sure the Nuforce was, as I bought it from a reviewer. I'm pretty sure, but not certain, that the Capri had been run in pretty good too. However, I'm sure I'm gonna get attacked by some now, but I just don't buy the 1000 hours of break-in stuff. To me, that very well may be when you've heard something long enough that you've become acclimated to it's sound, and now that's your new reference for good sound. It just drives me crazy when a reviewer or poster says a piece of equipment, a speaker, or a cable sounded like crap out of the box and 3000 hours later, it was like a revelation!!! Flame away, but I don't buy it. Regardless, I believe it's pretty much irrelevant as respects my Capri and Nuforce. |
For what it's worth, I have heard a difference in electronics before. I was at Harvey Sound in NY, and I listened to a nice pair of Vienna Acoustics spkrs, first with NAD M3, then with McIntosh MA6500. NAD wasOK but dull, while Mac had lively, toe tapping, draw-you-into-music sound. And, as I said in my initial post, the difference between my Pioneer vx49tsx $4,000 "flagship" receiver and the Sunfire amp was startling. THAT was an "AH HA" moment. Maybe there are no AH HA moments between good components above a certain threshold? I just don't believe that, and I just can't understand why I can't hear ANY difference. Anybody live in NYC/LI area and want to swap stuff? |
Jim/Yoby:I asked in my previous post if anyone in NYC/LI area wanted to swap. A fellow agoner who lives here on Long Island emailed me(he's interested in hearing the Nuforce and the Capri) and he has the Dodd tube preamp, so maybe I'll get the chance to listen to the Nuforce with a tube pre. Maybe this is simply a case of system synergy. I read Yoby's response on the changes he's heard with the Nuforce and I wonder why I don't hear those things when swapping in and out the Nuforce and/or the Capri vs the Sunfire stuff. |
I continue to do comparisons. I just compared a VERY well recorded song by Wynton Marsalis, cut #2, "you and me" from "The Magic Hour" CD. Unbelievably well recorded. Sound is amazing. Hand claps, his horn, big bass, drums, rims, cymbals, piano, etc. While the hand claps perhaps sounded more natural (smoother) on the Capri/Nuf combo, overall, the Sunfire combo actually sounded slightly BETTER. Better placement of instruments, more air, more lively sound. I can clearly hear the plucking of the bass, while on the C/N combo, the plucking gets a little lost and muted. It just sounds more REAL. I can't explain why. You can't imagine how much I want to believe the C/N is better, but so far it just isn't happening. And so it goes... |
Tvad, actually, you've got it wrong bud. I'm not tortured at all, just surprised. If you've been following along, I consistently say that I'm loving the sound, whichever combo is playing it. I'm just sharing my experience. And, I haven't listened to and enjoyed this much music in a long time, so it really is all good. OK, Pal? Now, aside from that little repartee, you often give good advice. Fact is, your advice long ago in a previous thread was that you didn't think the Nuforce would be a big deal since, spec wise, it didn't compete with the Sunfire, which could double down at 4/2ohms. The B&W's impedance can dip to 2-3 ohms, so the talents of the Nuforce may not be readily apparent or significant compared to the sunfire. You may have been correct all along. But thats why I'm sharing, just as I find other's experiences helpful.
Markwatkiss, I will definitely try the Dodd if and when I swap with me fellow Long Islander. I'm also curious whether the Nuforce/Capri will make a difference in his system. |
"Clearly, I have a barrier comprehending the positive nature of your journey."
LOL. Tvad, that's pretty funny! We're cool. (Can a 51 yr old still use language like that?)
I think that the torture aspect may be more the reader's own, as anyone reading is likely an audio enthusiast who probably cringes at the thought that such good equipment renders little or no difference. Yes, I'll admit it was initially frustrating, but I rationalize and get over these things quickly, especially since, and I repeat, the music sounds great. So, I don't mind continuing the adventure as it's actually enjoyable, and I still hold out hope that maybe there's an AHHA moment still to come, alas maybe with other equipment.
Your point regarding "knowing what to listen for" is an interesting one, and one that was brought up by a reviewer friend of mine. Perhaps I need that education, but what bothers me about that is, why do I need to "learn" to notice what I "should" be noticing? I can't help but wonder why it isn't more obvious. Do I really have to work THAT hard to "learn" the difference? Is there no gear that makes it obvious? I can't believe that all the posters here on agon had to learn how to hear. Just my opinion. |
Tvad. Amen to that. I can't believe I'm already at >$20k retail value (thank god for agon), and that's not including the capri and nuforce. Maybe my kids will be able to go to college after all, lol. |
Al, Tvad: I think that is exactly what happened with that Wynton Marsalis cut I mentioned earlier today. That was the first time I heard a real difference. As I said in that post though, the difference was in favor of the Sunfire pair, not the supposedly better and more expensive JRDG Capri/Nuforce pair. That's the confusing part. |
I have to agree with Jim. I really struggle with the concept of having to learn how to hear , and needing long periods of time to begin to hear subtle differences. Yes, some things like fatigue set in over time, but by and large, if the differences are so subtle that they are not "reasonably" readily apparent (a mild concession to time), then you have to question the value of that particular piece of equipment IN YOUR SYSTEM.
Although this will probably create more debate, let me clarify my point on learning to hear. This means, to me, trying to learn to hear beyond the obvious things that will stand out as an immediate change, ie, clarity, detail, accuracy of voice/timbre, pin point imaging, bass depth, overall fullness/leaness of sound. Then there are the more emotional aspects, like being "drawn into the music", or the "musicality" or the "toe tapping" experience. To Jim's point, I was looking for any of these things to jump out at me so I could decide which of these pieces made the music sound better TO ME, albeit with the expectation that the exceptionally well regarded, well reviewed, more costly, dedicated-to-2 channel pieces would clearly show improvement. That they haven't is surprising, and to be honest, disappointing. However, and Tvad and I are square on this now, it is not torture, and it has not discouraged me. I'm getting great sound now, and I'm going to continue to try to improve the sound quality, while enjoying what I have. I may be at a point where I can't hear improvements even if they are subjectively there. It could be my ears, my room, or my system synergy. The exploration will go on to try to determine this. I do believe that everyone is different, and some are just THAT much more sensitive to frequencies, to acoustics, to change, than others. And that sensitivity may have thresholds or plateaus beyond which they are no longer sensitive, or maybe even more sensitive. If you don't get frustrated, cajoled or bullied along the way, the process is actually fun, as long as the bottom line is consistent: THE MUSIC SOUNDS GOOD. |
Tvad, sorry for the late reply. Been busy. I really appreciate your response. No, LOL, you haven't nor couldn't have bullied me in any way. I don't get bullied, period. I was preaching in a general way, and I used the term only in the sense that some people, especially newbies, may tend to feel overwhelmed by those that have supposedly superior experience, and may feel compelled to believe what the "gurus" say even if they don't really hear a difference themselves. As for your communication skills, yes, you can be curt from time to time (LOL), but I don't take you as preachy or elitist. More a pragmatist actually. Truthfully, on this topic and many others, I genuinely appreciate your comments. The only time I felt I needed to come back at you was when I felt you were incorrectly labeling me as tortured, etc. So, no offense taken, and your comments and opinions are always welcome. Best...Jeff |
For anyone who still cares, here's an update with some very interesting news: I heard a difference between amps!
Actually, it was the same amp, my Sunfire. As a previous poster reminded me, the Sunfire offers two different outputs: voltage, which is like typical ss amp, and current, which is supposed to mirror tube amp. I had never played with current output, assuming I would much prefer the clarity and dynamics of the voltage/ss sound.
Well, I finally tried it and wow, it was not a subtle difference! It became very apparent on a Bocelli CD that I preferred the tube-like sound, and my 11 yr old son noticed instantly as well, also preferring the current output. I'm really hearing a significant difference here between the two outputs:
With the voltage outs that are typical SS, the music is in your face, the soundstage is at a single plane, all notes at same level, no depth, and (if I'm using the correct terminology) the "leading edge" or "attack" of notes are quite pronounced, overshadowing the balance of the note (ie, cymbals, rim shots, pluck of guitar string or piano key strike). Sometimes this is quite startling, sometimes in a good "wow, what impact/clarity" way, sometimes in a bad "turn down the volume" way. Sound is quite good for acoustic and small ensemble stuff, but the faster, bigger, brighter and/or more complicated the music, the worse it sounds, making me want to turn it down more often than not.
With the current outs that supposedly tube-like in character, it's almost exactly the opposite, and on the whole, significantly better, although there are those moments when I do miss the wow moments. Handclaps are more natural, everything much more listenable. The most remarkable difference: the notes and the soundstage has depth. The best way I can describe the soundstage is like you took a picture/painting where all the images were on a single upright plane and laid it down flat and then the images stood up like in a pop-up display, staggered in depth. The notes, while lacking in the initial impact, have a more even "attack/decay", allowing more depth and detail, and allowing more clarity and distinction between instruments and also vocals. This induces me to increase the volume as opposed to decreasing the volume with the voltage/ss outs. I have also noticed a fuller, more appealing low end/bass output with the current outs. Funny, I thought ss would provide more bass.
OK, so now I'm a believer. Amps can really sound different. I now need to figure out if I only hear a difference between distinct designs like tube vs ss, or if I can really hear a pronounced difference between various ss amps. I have not had the Nuforce amps back in, so I need to do that one last time. Also, still not sure the Capri makes a big difference. It may make some difference, but much less than these different amp outputs. |
Thanks Al. Interesting (though a bit overly technical for a non-techie like me, lol). Couple of observations: clearly I like the power/current paradigm better on my B&Ws, but I doubt these speakers were designed with p/c paradigm in mind. Also, I think that Bob Carver and this Sunfire design proves again that you can design a ss amp to resemble tube amps.
As I don't have a true tube amp to compare, is it possible that a tube-like ss amp offers the best combination/compromise for someone like me who wants that tube-like liquidity and bloom, but also wants ss bass impact and low heat/low maintenance? What ss amps possess these qualities? Based on Karsten's article and my ears, it seems McIntosh amps fit this profile: 1)they fit Karsten's power/current paradigm profile of having stable output regardless of impedance, and 2)everytime I've heard them I've felt the same way I do now with the Sunfire.
What other amps? |
