What's wrong? Nuforce/Capri no better than Sunfire

Interesting thread. Bump.

I certainly agree that the NuForce amps are very transparent; the most transparent that I have ever heard in fact. In my opinion its a strength rather then a weakness however.

Find a preamp that you like and the Ref 9s will pass its sound. I've never used a SS pre with the amps and do not think it would be to my liking. Way too much of a good thing (clinical).

My Cary SLP-98 leans a bit (ok quite a bit) to the romantic side but I never find it syrupy or slow. I have tried it with different amps which always seem to slow the system down and again give too much of a good thing to my ear (leaning further to the warm side this time).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in my experience these amps make component matching much simpler. The pre-amp/amp interaction is minimal.. so just pick the pre that you like and run it through the Ref 9s - you will receive a larger version of it on the other side.

There are many ways to arrive at the sound you want but this is my experience with these amps.

Sorry but I have a hard time buying into the notion that one has to be educated to 'listen' properly for slight differences, especially in this instance. Perhaps to study the subtle points of a system's character there is validity to analytical listening, but really it is when the difference is clear and not suble that we discover the special components.

I've had the NuForce reference 9s in my system for a while. They are admirable in some ways. One can't help but be impressed by their clarity and apparent speed. But, ultimately, I found them un-involving. I can see how one might prefer the Sunfire overall. The Ref 9s just didn't have what I need in a component - that ability to emotionally connect me to the music to recreate reality in my living room. Some components just have that - well, for want of a better word - magic.

oh, man, i've never liked the voltage output on my sunfire anywhere near as well as i've liked the current output and i've had quite a few speakers to try them on.

they sound good on bass drivers, but not as good on the mids and tweeters, IMHO. the configuration is fun to play with, though.

if i recall, the surrounds are all voltage, but it doesn't matter as much there. the cinema grand mark ii has the optional current output for the center channel as well, where some iterations of the amp don't (i later discovered i don't like center channels on principle, but that's a different story...).

good stuff, glad you're having fun.

Can somebody please tell me what's going on with this website. I can't navigate through Audiogon without a totally different website popping up?

See this thread -- they are aware of the problem and apparently it should be resolved shortly:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1242849866

Regards,
-- Al

I have found that spending a few days with a new amp, getting accustom to its sonic signature, attributes, etc and then reinstall the previous amp will reveal the better amp with your current components. I've heard a few Carver/Sunfire amps & was astonished how good they really are. I wasn't overly impressed with the Nuforce on my speakers.

Can somebody please tell me what's going on with this website. I can't navigate through Audiogon without a totally different website popping up?

Jeffkad; You will notice a further remarkable difference if you do the following:

1. Get another Sunfire amp and run one channel through each of them. You'll notice a much better sense of channel separation and imaging.

2. Contact Marigo Audio and ask them to audition a pair of Ultra 5 power cords, one for each amp. You will notice a great improvement in how real, natural and detailed the music will sound.

Jeff - You have wasted enough time on Rowland and Nuforce. Get rid of that stuff before the word gets out about Sunfire. Once that happens, the separates won't be worth a plugged nickel. However, gambler that I am, I'll take them off your hands for an even $1000, if you pay the freight to 81521.
Do you have the boxes?

As I don't have a true tube amp to compare, is it possible that a tube-like ss amp offers the best combination/compromise for someone like me who wants that tube-like liquidity and bloom, but also wants ss bass impact and low heat/low maintenance? What ss amps possess these qualities?

Tvad, what sayest thou?

-- Al :)

Thanks Al. Interesting (though a bit overly technical for a non-techie like me, lol). Couple of observations: clearly I like the power/current paradigm better on my B&Ws, but I doubt these speakers were designed with p/c paradigm in mind. Also, I think that Bob Carver and this Sunfire design proves again that you can design a ss amp to resemble tube amps.

As I don't have a true tube amp to compare, is it possible that a tube-like ss amp offers the best combination/compromise for someone like me who wants that tube-like liquidity and bloom, but also wants ss bass impact and low heat/low maintenance? What ss amps possess these qualities? Based on Karsten's article and my ears, it seems McIntosh amps fit this profile: 1)they fit Karsten's power/current paradigm profile of having stable output regardless of impedance, and 2)everytime I've heard them I've felt the same way I do now with the Sunfire.
What other amps?

Jeff -- You'll be interested in the following excellent paper, written by Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere (who as you may know is a frequent contributor here at Audiogon). He characterizes the two kinds of outputs you are describing as based on what he calls the "voltage-paradigm" and the "power paradigm."

It comes across in his paper that which will sound best is dependent on which paradigm the particular speaker was designed for (which in turn may have been either a consciously-made choice by the designer, or an unintentional choice that is implicit in other aspects of the design).

http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html

Regards,
-- Al

 For anyone who still cares, here's an update with some very interesting news: I heard a difference between amps!

Actually, it was the same amp, my Sunfire.  As a previous poster reminded me, the Sunfire offers two different outputs: voltage, which is like typical ss amp, and current, which is supposed to mirror tube amp.  I had never played with current output, assuming I would much prefer the clarity and dynamics of the voltage/ss sound.  

Well, I finally tried it and wow, it was not a subtle difference!  It became very apparent on a Bocelli CD that I preferred the tube-like sound, and my 11 yr old son noticed instantly as well, also preferring the current output. I'm really hearing a significant difference here between the two outputs:

With the voltage outs that are typical SS, the music is in your face, the soundstage is at a single plane, all notes at same level, no depth, and (if I'm using the correct terminology) the "leading edge" or "attack" of notes are quite pronounced, overshadowing the balance of the note (ie, cymbals, rim shots, pluck of guitar string or piano key strike). Sometimes this is quite startling, sometimes in a good "wow, what impact/clarity" way, sometimes in a bad "turn down the volume" way. Sound is quite good for acoustic and small ensemble stuff, but the faster, bigger, brighter and/or more complicated the music, the worse it sounds, making me want to turn it down more often than not.

With the current outs that supposedly tube-like in character, it's almost exactly the opposite, and on the whole, significantly better, although there are those moments when I do miss the wow moments. Handclaps are more natural, everything much more listenable. The most remarkable difference: the notes and the soundstage has depth. The best way I can describe the soundstage is like you took a picture/painting where all the images were on a single upright plane and laid it down flat and then the images stood up like in a pop-up display, staggered in depth. The notes, while lacking in the initial impact, have a more even "attack/decay", allowing more depth and detail, and allowing more clarity and distinction between instruments and also vocals. This induces me to increase the volume as opposed to decreasing the volume with the voltage/ss outs. I have also noticed a fuller, more appealing low end/bass output with the current outs. Funny, I thought ss would provide more bass.

OK, so now I'm a believer. Amps can really sound different. I now need to figure out if I only hear a difference between distinct designs like tube vs ss, or if I can really hear a pronounced difference between various ss amps. I have not had the Nuforce amps back in, so I need to do that one last time. Also, still not sure the Capri makes a big difference. It may make some difference, but much less than these different amp outputs.

Speaking from experience, as I've owned both the TGP-5 and TGA-5200, they're decent gear (and the amp gives you the option to mimic a tube amp in some respects). I just sold both the pre/pro and amp over the past several months. During the time I owned them, I also owned a Musical Fidelity A5 and a Musical Fidelity A308 (both integrated amps).

The differences between the Sunfire and MF amps were on the subtle side, not a "wow" change at all. They sounded a little different, but neither provided you a huge leap in detail or clarity over the other with all other things being constant (though they are different animals, the 5200 being class D, the musical fidelity amps being class a/class a/b I believe).

One thing you're dealing with here is the use of a pre-amp. The only time I discerned a big difference in detail or dynamics was when I removed the pre/pro (or any preamp) from the signal chain and used either a DAC with volume attenuation or in my case, a computer, to control the volume. The pre/pro, while it does a good job, will "dilute" the source signal, as do most preamps that I've used or encountered (unless built directly into the source component like a DAC). This was the same scenario when using the Musical Fidelity amps where I bypassed the onboard integrated preamp and drove it directly through it's "home theater bypass" inputs.

The only time I got a wow factor out of changing amps was going from the afore mentioned equipment to a tube amp, but that's just a different sound altogether (and not necessarily better to some people). The wow factor to me came from never having owned a tube amp before.

Much like power cords, ICs and any other piece to the equation, most changes aren't wholesale improvements, just incremental steps in one direction or another (and not always forward or for the better).

Tvad, sorry for the late reply. Been busy. I really appreciate your response. No, LOL, you haven't nor couldn't have bullied me in any way. I don't get bullied, period. I was preaching in a general way, and I used the term only in the sense that some people, especially newbies, may tend to feel overwhelmed by those that have supposedly superior experience, and may feel compelled to believe what the "gurus" say even if they don't really hear a difference themselves. As for your communication skills, yes, you can be curt from time to time (LOL), but I don't take you as preachy or elitist. More a pragmatist actually. Truthfully, on this topic and many others, I genuinely appreciate your comments. The only time I felt I needed to come back at you was when I felt you were incorrectly labeling me as tortured, etc. So, no offense taken, and your comments and opinions are always welcome. Best...Jeff

Jim, thanks for your input. IME, improvements have been more subtle then not. For the many upgrades and tweaks I've been through, I can count on one hand what I would call both immediate and significant upgrades. I guess it depends also on what your ideas of subtle or significant are with this hobby, though I think we can all agree in a general sense.

My experience has prob been repeated many times before -- each new/better piece brings a small improvement, over time the sum is greater then the whole was before. Certainly my stereo now is significantly better then when I started. Tvad, thanks for your insights.

I have to agree with Jim. I really struggle with the concept of having to learn how to hear , and needing long periods of time to begin to hear subtle differences. Yes, some things like fatigue set in over time, but by and large, if the differences are so subtle that they are not "reasonably" readily apparent (a mild concession to time), then you have to question the value of that particular piece of equipment IN YOUR SYSTEM.

Although this will probably create more debate, let me clarify my point on learning to hear. This means, to me, trying to learn to hear beyond the obvious things that will stand out as an immediate change, ie, clarity, detail, accuracy of voice/timbre, pin point imaging, bass depth, overall fullness/leaness of sound. Then there are the more emotional aspects, like being "drawn into the music", or the "musicality" or the "toe tapping" experience. To Jim's point, I was looking for any of these things to jump out at me so I could decide which of these pieces made the music sound better TO ME, albeit with the expectation that the exceptionally well regarded, well reviewed, more costly, dedicated-to-2 channel pieces would clearly show improvement. That they haven't is surprising, and to be honest, disappointing. However, and Tvad and I are square on this now, it is not torture, and it has not discouraged me. I'm getting great sound now, and I'm going to continue to try to improve the sound quality, while enjoying what I have. I may be at a point where I can't hear improvements even if they are subjectively there. It could be my ears, my room, or my system synergy. The exploration will go on to try to determine this. I do believe that everyone is different, and some are just THAT much more sensitive to frequencies, to acoustics, to change, than others. And that sensitivity may have thresholds or plateaus beyond which they are no longer sensitive, or maybe even more sensitive. If you don't get frustrated, cajoled or bullied along the way, the process is actually fun, as long as the bottom line is consistent: THE MUSIC SOUNDS GOOD.

Tholt: The differences between great components and mediocre components are not subtle. If the difference is subtle, the component is not worth the money. There is something else that will provide a real difference (and probably for less money).

Don't buy in to the view that only a "wise, experienced audiophile" can hear the differences between components. Such words are spoken by people who have paid too much for gear that they don't even know is inferior. Many of the revered names in audio don't deserve the reputation they have.

If the difference is important and worth paying for, your wife or girlfriend will be able to hear it immediately. Using her as the reference point will save you a lot of money.

OTOH, deferring to the views of people on this board will usually cost you a lot of money, while providing you little or no benefit.

If the difference is not immediately clear, the component is not worth the money.

Your point regarding "knowing what to listen for" is an interesting one, and one that was brought up by a reviewer friend of mine. Perhaps I need that education, but what bothers me about that is, why do I need to "learn" to notice what I "should" be noticing? I can't help but wonder why it isn't more obvious. Do I really have to work THAT hard to "learn" the difference? Is there no gear that makes it obvious? I can't believe that all the posters here on agon had to learn how to hear. Just my opinion.
Jeffkad (Threads | Answers)

I've been following this thread, and it's morphed into something broader and of more interest (to me at least) then the original question, although it hinted at it. The above comment by the OP I 100% relate to, and Tvad's response I'm learning more and more is true. I'm fairly new to this hobby, and it frustrates me that differences are almost always MUCH subtler then one would reasonably expect them to be, esp with the amount of money things cost and the adjectives you read from reviewers. And judging from the OP's comment, and my own common sense, I'm not alone. I don't have any experienced audiophiles around me -- I'm braving this on my own and have the dwindling funds to prove it -- so how would I learn the 'art of listening'? Not to take away from this thread, but another question that has to be asked is, every audiophile was once a beginner with "green" ears -- once you realized that most differences between components was pretty small, what pressed you to continue on and not think that this hobby was just a bunch of hype? This is an honest question out of curiosity, please don't read into it or take offense (or become disrespectful) in your answer.

BTW, cheers to all of you experienced and apparently intelligent and wise posters. I learn something new from these forums every day. To that end, it's been very rewarding.

Al, Tvad: I think that is exactly what happened with that Wynton Marsalis cut I mentioned earlier today. That was the first time I heard a real difference. As I said in that post though, the difference was in favor of the Sunfire pair, not the supposedly better and more expensive JRDG Capri/Nuforce pair. That's the confusing part.

Tvad. Amen to that. I can't believe I'm already at >$20k retail value (thank god for agon), and that's not including the capri and nuforce. Maybe my kids will be able to go to college after all, lol.

... the differences. Once you hear and recognize them,
then future observations become easier and more pronounced.

Exactly. That's what I was trying to express in my earlier post in this thread, coupled with the fact that the better the quality of the source material that is used, the easier and faster the process will be.

Regards,
-- Al

"Clearly, I have a barrier comprehending the positive nature of your journey."

LOL. Tvad, that's pretty funny! We're cool. (Can a 51 yr old still use language like that?)

I think that the torture aspect may be more the reader's own, as anyone reading is likely an audio enthusiast who probably cringes at the thought that such good equipment renders little or no difference. Yes, I'll admit it was initially frustrating, but I rationalize and get over these things quickly, especially since, and I repeat, the music sounds great. So, I don't mind continuing the adventure as it's actually enjoyable, and I still hold out hope that maybe there's an AHHA moment still to come, alas maybe with other equipment.

Your point regarding "knowing what to listen for" is an interesting one, and one that was brought up by a reviewer friend of mine. Perhaps I need that education, but what bothers me about that is, why do I need to "learn" to notice what I "should" be noticing? I can't help but wonder why it isn't more obvious. Do I really have to work THAT hard to "learn" the difference? Is there no gear that makes it obvious? I can't believe that all the posters here on agon had to learn how to hear. Just my opinion.

Tvad, actually, you've got it wrong bud. I'm not tortured at all, just surprised. If you've been following along, I consistently say that I'm loving the sound, whichever combo is playing it. I'm just sharing my experience. And, I haven't listened to and enjoyed this much music in a long time, so it really is all good. OK, Pal? Now, aside from that little repartee, you often give good advice. Fact is, your advice long ago in a previous thread was that you didn't think the Nuforce would be a big deal since, spec wise, it didn't compete with the Sunfire, which could double down at 4/2ohms. The B&W's impedance can dip to 2-3 ohms, so the talents of the Nuforce may not be readily apparent or significant compared to the sunfire. You may have been correct all along. But thats why I'm sharing, just as I find other's experiences helpful.

Markwatkiss, I will definitely try the Dodd if and when I swap with me fellow Long Islander. I'm also curious whether the Nuforce/Capri will make a difference in his system.

Just to satisfy your curiosity,and mine,audition the NuForce with the Dodd pre amp.

Some reputations are earned. Others are not. Rowland is viewed on Audiogon as an important and exclusive brand. Sunfire is not. Is either reputation deserved? Maybe not.

I continue to do comparisons. I just compared a VERY well recorded song by Wynton Marsalis, cut #2, "you and me" from "The Magic Hour" CD. Unbelievably well recorded. Sound is amazing. Hand claps, his horn, big bass, drums, rims, cymbals, piano, etc. While the hand claps perhaps sounded more natural (smoother) on the Capri/Nuf combo, overall, the Sunfire combo actually sounded slightly BETTER. Better placement of instruments, more air, more lively sound. I can clearly hear the plucking of the bass, while on the C/N combo, the plucking gets a little lost and muted. It just sounds more REAL. I can't explain why. You can't imagine how much I want to believe the C/N is better, but so far it just isn't happening. And so it goes...

Jim/Yoby:I asked in my previous post if anyone in NYC/LI area wanted to swap. A fellow agoner who lives here on Long Island emailed me(he's interested in hearing the Nuforce and the Capri) and he has the Dodd tube preamp, so maybe I'll get the chance to listen to the Nuforce with a tube pre. Maybe this is simply a case of system synergy. I read Yoby's response on the changes he's heard with the Nuforce and I wonder why I don't hear those things when swapping in and out the Nuforce and/or the Capri vs the Sunfire stuff.

The NuForces really do need a tubed pre IMO. I'm using a Cary SLP-98 and really, enjoy this combo.

Prior was an ARC LS26 which was also very good but I prefer the additional tube character the Cary brings.

Your welcome.

Hi Tvad: I orginally paired the NuForce 9SE's with a Counterpoint HC818 preamp. This was a very nice improvement over the Counterpoint Solid 1 amp I was using. After 6 months , I had the NuForces's upgraded to the V2 version. Major improvement. After a month or so, a friend of mine loaned me his Cary SPL 98 for a week. The improvement in presentation was more lifelike (but the bass response wasn't so great). I then, after a couple of months, bought a deHavilland Mercury II preamp here on Audiogon. This is where I am to this day. I had the output coupling caps upgraded to Mundorf Silver/Oil ones. Thanks for asking. Jeff

My experience has taught me that the NuForce 9SE V2 amps really like tube preamps.

No attack about break in time,just curious,no other reason.

For what it's worth, I have heard a difference in electronics before. I was at Harvey Sound in NY, and I listened to a nice pair of Vienna Acoustics spkrs, first with NAD M3, then with McIntosh MA6500. NAD wasOK but dull, while Mac had lively, toe tapping, draw-you-into-music sound. And, as I said in my initial post, the difference between my Pioneer vx49tsx $4,000 "flagship" receiver and the Sunfire amp was startling. THAT was an "AH HA" moment. Maybe there are no AH HA moments between good components above a certain threshold? I just don't believe that, and I just can't understand why I can't hear ANY difference. Anybody live in NYC/LI area and want to swap stuff?

Both were purchased used, so I'm assuming (I know, a big assumption) that both were broken in already. I'm pretty sure the Nuforce was, as I bought it from a reviewer. I'm pretty sure, but not certain, that the Capri had been run in pretty good too. However, I'm sure I'm gonna get attacked by some now, but I just don't buy the 1000 hours of break-in stuff. To me, that very well may be when you've heard something long enough that you've become acclimated to it's sound, and now that's your new reference for good sound. It just drives me crazy when a reviewer or poster says a piece of equipment, a speaker, or a cable sounded like crap out of the box and 3000 hours later, it was like a revelation!!! Flame away, but I don't buy it. Regardless, I believe it's pretty much irrelevant as respects my Capri and Nuforce.

You have not yet revealed how many hours of running time you have on the Capri and the NuForce.These pieces are like fine wine they take time.

Csmgolf and Macro: I will be keeping both pieces in my system for the next few weeks. However, to macro's point, I have been switching in and out with the Sunfire pieces and the Nuforce and Capri, both together as a unit and individually, all combinations. Listening to short cuts to hear for differences in timbre, detail, etc, as well as complete songs and sets of songs, then switching and replaying. Really no difference at all, and certainly not the dramatic difference I was hoping to hear from not only much more expensive but also exceptionally well reviewed gear that supposedly played above it's price to boot(guidocorona, where are you?). To be honest, my wife actually heard and preferred a slight difference with the Capri vs the Sunfire pre/pro, using the Nuforce amp. But again, she thought the sound was very close and loved the sound either way. Where's my dramatic upgrade, LOL???

Macrojack had hit it right on the head. This is pretty much the same method I use when I decide whether I like a component or not. The one thing I try to do with the new component is leave it in the system for a couple of weeks and listen every day to get very familiar with the sound of that component. I do not analyze the sound during this period, but try to enjoy the music. Many times the differences are subtle between well designed and built products. Some of these differences will be important to you and others will not, or maybe you won't even notice them. As Macro states above, when you put the Sunfire back into the system after the couple of weeks, you will know if you have to have the new stuff or not.

Have you tried a good tube preamp? I've found that tube preamps can generally bring the music alive, and this is not to suggest that the best SS preamps are incapable of capturing the essence of the music, but in my experience - just not in the same way.