Audio is listening and comparing as much as possible. At the end the best is the one who is the most interesting.
The differences in quality is huge and often there are many who can create a much lower endresult. We always compare the same way and use the same parts during shootouts.
Each single tool we test we take serious and the brand doesn't garantee anything.
We use Total Sound all the time during tests. When all these parts are there, the level of emotion and excitement is higher.
Parts of Total Sound:
- Soundrealism: you want and need an instrument to sound
like in real. I use Pass labs amps to the max for this. It
is the focus on sound of each different instrument and
voice. For example: you want to hear the difference
between 2 acoustic guitars of a recording. I always want
to hear the full palette in the mid freq. The timbre is an
essential part of listening to music
- 3 dimensional soundstage: this is the most exiting part
of audio in general. This sets your beloved music in full
3Din front of you. During listening you can focus on each
individual part of a recording.The best sets can even give
instruments the shape as in real.
- Intimate sound:instruments and voices are very small in
dimension and very direct in sound. You want a realistic
proportion of instruments and voices. Intimate sound has
a very big influence on our emotion. During many acoustic
classical live concerts I learned how small a vice and
instruments were in proportion.
- Blacks: The space between the instruments and voices
with their acoustic information during the recording. This
is the level of physical appearance. You want to touch
every single instrument and voice of the recording.
Germans use the word'darstellung'.
- timing and speed: it is a very important part for
authorityand control of the overall sound. Better timing
will give you less acoustic limitaions. But also a more
natural sound.Biside this you also can reveal more layers
of the low freq.
- Resolution: you want to hear all details of the
recording.And it needs to be physical apparent.
- Air: This part gives the instruments and voices the
freedom during listening. Separation makes your music so
much more appealing.
- A big freq. response: When your system goes deeper in
freq.response you will hear more information of a
recoding. Thisalso has a big influence on our emotion.
People can heartill maximum 20 khz. But...the freq.
response above it still influences our brains.
- articulation of voices: how clear you can hear word
endings, breathing of singers and moving lips.
- heights: When I received 2 sets of the Audioquest Wel
Signature xlr's it became more clear than ever. It makes
listening to music different and even more appealing. |
I really appreciate all of the responses. Well ok, most of them. I'm not going to Radio Shack. :-) I'm definitely going to look into some of the suggestions though.
@Jafant
Thanks for your suggestions. It's interesting to me that you characterized cabling as more important than the preamp. I'm really not interested in opening up the cable can of worms. I'm actually more than pleased with my combination of Dream State Audio (Dream Catcher and Lucid) and Silver Circle Audio Vesuvius power cords, Silver Circle Audio Bi-Wired Monorails speaker cables, Silver Circle Audio XLR Interconnects (pre to amp) and High Fidelity RCA Interconnects for analog front end.
@Georgelofi
You are 100% correct sir. IF I keep the EMM Labs gear I have no need of a separate preamp. However, I'm contemplating moving away from that gear, in which case I will be in the market for a pre and a CD/SACD player.
@Pani
Do you mean the Conrad Johnson GAT? Isn't the ART an amp? It may not be fully founded but I'm a bit turned off of Conrad due to lack of XLR connections. I experienced a noticeable improvement over RCA from the EMM Labs DCC2 to the Plinius using XLR so I'm not sure I want to give that up. I may also want that connection flexibility when I look for a CD/SACD player as well. But I will certainly check out these units you mentioned! Thanks again! |
If he thinks a Ref-5 se is a low quality pre-amp. I can't imagine what he would say about my LS-27. |
Check out these:
Wavac PR-Z1
Einstein "The Preamp"
Nagra Jazz
Symphonic Line "The Enlightenment"
Conrad Johnson ART (no other model)
All of these will drive the Plinius very well and are some of the best preamp in this price class. |
Listen to a CAT preamp and you won't think of the ARC REF 5 SE again. |
Tsushima1, ... no doubt when Bo did the Ref 5 SE shootout, presumably with the Pass XP-20, he might have literally shot the Ref 5 SE. No wonder it didn't compare well.
IME, ARC gear sounds best when you don't shoot it.
Fortunately, Bo didn't listen to the Ref 5 SE under a gob of whipped cream (ala the Three Stooges skit of similar theme) or under water. |
Timztunzhi, from what I've searched on what you have, a EMM Labs DCC2/CDSD SE combo why haven't you done as EMM states, forget the preamp.
EMM Labs DCC2
"eliminating the need for a separate preamp, attendant buffer stages and additional set of cables. The result is a more direct signal path. Not to mention a more direct connection with the music itself."
Cheers George |
A Radio Shack compact combo boom box stereo/Swiss army knife. |
A preamp that totally changed the sound of my system to the feel of real music was the Shindo Auriges. This is there entry model and they have a bunch of preamps that our really special
Alan |
I owned the XP-20 in the past, this one I prefer also.
a client of mine owns a AR Ref 5SE, and we did a shootout
at my house. I was amazed how low the quality was
We used Audioquest Wel Signature XLR 2015 cables, and the
Purist Audio Limited Edition powercables.
We have developed our own roomacoustic system and adapted
it it to a pre amp what is not for sale yet. It
outperformed the 5SE on all parts. The owner could go back
home crying for his mother. We really felt sorry for him.
a new client owns the AR 100SE poweramp, again the same
kind of limitations. We test and compare all the time.
Because we only focus on those products which are the best
for the money. Every brand and tool what is less we never
will sell.
Pass Labs outperforms AR in many parts you judge highend
for. I sold AR for over 6 years of time. When I should
sell it again, it would be time to look for another job.
In our world inferior audio doesn't make sense. For some
it may sound hard. But we use this to protect all our
clients. So they will get the best endresults in sound
quality. The best and most convincing sound always will
win. This is how we compete againt our competitors. We
love the competition a lot. We always want to win. Second
best doesn't count in our world! |
The Ref 5se is a truly excellent preamp. At the price it is selling for used right now it would be very hard to beat. At it's retail price it is hard to beat. I own a Ref 5se and it is amazing. I listened to a lot of preamps while thinking about upgrading. I heard the Aesthetix Calypso signature in the same system as the Ref 5se. It was not in the same league. The Pass XP-30 is very nice. I have not had the chance to directly compare the XP-30 to the Ref 5se. But I was very impressed by the Pass system it was in. If I did not own Audio Research gear I would probably own Pass. The D'Agostino Momentum preamp is maybe better, though it is far more expensive. I do love the Captain Nemo styling. I can't think of any preamp I liked as much as the Ref 5se other than the D'Agostino Momentum.
|
Having glance at previous outpourings I for one am not really that interested Taters, I suspect that he might be a close blood relative to Audiolabyrinth !!! |
This should be an interesting thread as it develops. *lol* |
Bo1972,
Everything you said about the Ref-5SE I have heard the opposite. Tell us what pre-amp for the same money you like better? |
Naim is even worse. You need to begin with live music.
One of my best friends had a small concert room with a Steinway wing for 65 people. Here I learend how small and direct voices and instruments sound in real.
I wa slike magic, the intimate sound was what I sill use in all my sets I create for clients.
The second part what influenced me a lot was also jazz live music. I was sitting in the middle and in front of the stage. You could hear all the instruments and stage depth and width. Also the heights of the instruments.
That is why we create a 3 dimensional intimate stage. We test and compare all audio on 9 different parts you judge audio for.
Naim has nothing to do with realism in sound and music. I only can buy it when you don't know a lot about music and how it sounds in real.
I can explain why?
Naim is 2 dimensional, we even call it often 1 dimensional ( mono) because beside there is not stage depth instruments do not have an intimate apparence like in real.
What does audio need?
first of all; education in music. I spend about 3-4 hours every week for the search of new music. I am an music addict.
In 8 years of time I did many shootouts for clients between 2 and 3 dimensional sound. This is the most effective way of getting people exited about music and audio. Even women get exited when you demo 3 dimensional sound. Many women of men who bought a system from us use the set independently.
In 2009 I did a 3 dimensional demo for a person who recently bought a naim set of 14000 euro. He said; I never experienced music this way. When I would have heard this at the time I bought the Naim set, I would have bought this set for sure.
The problem is that the knowledge and insight in sound is getting less every single year. This problem we see and hear at shops, distributers and even at manufacturers.
There is one thing needed; it has to change. This way audio will become a smaller market every single year. |
"It is a pitty that openness and reality is missing in the world of audio. And that is a shame!"
Bo, you're not helping any. lol. You make a good case to look at something else, so what is it? The OP is asking, if not the ARC, then what? Naim maybe? |
When you judge an AR Ref5se on all parts you judge highend for, you will find out how limited this pre amp is.
- the stage depth and width is not that big as the best ones.
- In resolution you miss a lot of details.
- in speed and dynamics it is not that special.
- also in individual focus of instruments and voices
it is not that sharp and apparent.
- Also the lack of blacklevel this pre amp does not give
you the 3d apperance of voices and instruments
- when you focus on the diversity in the middle freq, you
will miss the realism in sound. It sound like every
instrument sounds the same. Like you have a warm low end
, mid freq and high freq.
Many highend brands are kept alive with written reviews. It is a pitty that openness and reality is missing in the world of audio. And that is a shame! |
Tim-
consider Conrad Johnson and Aesthetix for tubes.
consider Pass Labs for solid state.
More importantly, which cable brand(s) are you planning to use? Keep me posted and Happy Listening! |
