...Oh, to answer your question (lol), to properly cover all of your stated criteria, I suggest that there's no single subwoofer that can truly do all of that, IMO. Rather, a custom multiple subwoofer project, consisting of large enclosures, many high performance drivers, and driven by lots of power!! All of that, and EQ'd and intricately crossed over to whatever speakers they're mating to!
You want speed, accuracy, ultimate impact, depth, etc. Yep,...custom, expensive, and involved, is what I'm thinking. Otherwise, you'll sacrifice on either end of the performance spectrum, in ultimate terms.
How about a complete front wall covered by a bunch of 10", sealed enclosure, esoteric, hi-end music woofers, powered by like 1000 watts per?!!! Pretty much any distortion would be negated, due to only the singular fundamentals would be audible from the redundant nature of multiple drivers canceling out differences, audibly. And, more importantly, the efficiency of such a setup would only have the drivers working in minimalist output from such an efficient system, to achieve desired output level in relation to the main speakers in the system. Probably gunna be all anyone could ever ask for, for maximum speed and bass impact! Only problem then would be absorbing all that excess bass energy. Heheh... |
Best subs I ever heard were the ones that were properly placed in the room, integrated with the loudspeakers and the associated listening positions, correctly dialed in for volume, phase and correct crossover frequency accordingly, and also inherently well matched with the loudspeakers they're crossing over to!
Bass is THE single most critically setup dependent element when it comes to sound from a system! Place even the most highly touted/rated or expensive subwoofers (self powered, or otherwise) in any system - without successfully addressing all of the afore mentioned points of consideration, and you can forget getting anything resembling exceptional performance from your product!-GUARANTEED! In fact, I'd go so far as to state that the above are all far far more important than the inherent overall performance potential and quality level of the subwoofer itself, yes!
I've dealt hands on with some of the highest end powered consumer woofers ever manufactured (including high end Thiel's, Wilson's, Martin Logan's, Entec, and any number of pro/consumer mid-fi offerings on to M&K,Velodyne,Paradigm, yada yada), and can straight out say that I'd hands down rather have even some modest mid-fi level offerings set up well in any system, over spending big bucks on some potential subwoofer nirvana, that's not set up well! Results are always better with the former..trust me |
THOR'S HAMMER by Wilson Audio
$21,000 MSRP; Dimensions: 59"x20"x25.5" Weight: 412 Pounds
Heard this puppy at Definitive Audio as part of their Home Theater Experience show. Beyond amazing...
Strangely enough, Definitive does not recommend this sub for condo dwellers. |
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To Matjet - I have had a Paradigm SUB1 for about 2.5 months. It's integrated with a full seven-panel Magnepan LCR set up (3.7s, DWMs, tri-center). I've set it up to run with both music and for the LFE. The SUB1 is fast enough to keep up with the Maggies. I compated the SUB1 with the newest digital B&W and a JL F113. The F113 was my initial target (replacing a very good Paradigm Seismic 12) but after listening to all three at the dealer (talk about a physical workout moving subs around) I felt that the hexagonal design would help reduce some of the room effects, the total surface area provided the oomph I was looking for, and the Perfect Bass Kit (or whatever they call it) worked very well (prior to a second run-through with my Meridian g61r room correction tha manages only the <250Hz signals). If cost were truly no object I might go for a JL Gotham, but I've found that unless the room is really large the Gotham (and the Humungous Wilson Audio sub) tend to overpower the music and detract from movies.
To borrow from Dennis Miller, "But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."...
gordon |
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The ones that have been best set up and integrated into the rest of the system and the room. |
The best subs that I've actually heard in a demo are the JL Fathom and the Revel B15. Tight, articulate, fast, and authoritative bass. I liked it so much I got the Revel. The Fathom goes deeper than the Revel and if I had the cash would probably be the only other sub I'd go for. The RELs are the other brand that I would include in that as part of my top three.
I've previously owned Martin Logan, REL, and also auditioned (but not owned) Sunfire. |
If I were you, audition two SVS SB13 ultra subs - 45 day trial. I have a PB13 Ultra(best sub I've owned and heard) and i'm going to try a SB13 Ultra, decide which I like better , and get another of choice. Depending on your room size, 2 SB13 Ultras cost you the price of one JL audio F113, 4 will cost you the price of a Paradigm Sub 2 in price. If cost is no object, I'd get 2 Paradigm Sub 2's and calibrate them and be done.......so done....... |
See if you can demo some JL Audio and Velodyne subs. F113's, Gotham, DD18 plus or 1812. Very impressive. |
If you have an older surr amp, go for sub including eq system. Audyssey Pro with my own way of measurement gave the best integartion of a sub in stereo as well in Multi channel use I ever heard! |
Mat, I've never heard the Paradigm but considering your needs I doubt it will fail to impress.
IMO, a good subwoofer can do both HT and two channel very well. To accomplish this with sensible connivence the sub needs some form of modern signal processing with presets that can be switched via a processor, pre/pro, receiver, or subwoofers, remote.
Even if its a dedicated HT or a two channel system the media usually needs its varying share of EQ such as phase or gain. The more control you have over your sub at the listening chair the more you'll realize just how important a sub can be. |
IBo1972
I am talking about use for home theater, not music. I am looking for a sub that has impressive visceral power and punch. Also, a sub that is fast, detailed, low and accurate. A sub that can pressurize a room without distortion. A sub that can be felt in the chest, not just the feet when planted on the floor. I am looking for substantial power as well as accuracy.
I am considering Paradigm Signature Sub 2. Would any owners like to comment on this product? |
I have demoed the JL 110, and they will be my next purchase. They sound great! |
And IF any one post that SUBS are meant to be felt not heard is full of %$#@! because you have never heard a great sub then. |
I listen to music with my REL Britania series NOT helicopters and explosions, so my views are reflective of my 2 channel audio exp. The REL studio series are not good musical subs.They are meant for HT. I like a sub that has the woofer facing you for best musical sound. Not one thats pointed at the floor. |
Bo1972, I have always used my EARS to dial in my REL sub,it sounds very well integrated and does not muddy up my super fast main speakers (Dynaudio). The REL is very fast indeed and accurate.The REL allows my main speakers to be faster! And Its my EARS that tell me this Not some device. Not theres anything wrong with measurments but at the end of the day its YOU who has to like what your hearing. "If it sounds good, it is good". My quote of the day ..lol |
It depends also about your wishes and how you will use it? Is it for multi chanel or also for stereo use. Since today I did not hear a Rel or Velodyne demo were in stereo use the instruments still were very small and direct to point out. The EQ system of Velodyne solves the acoustic problems very well. But even at show's wenn I use my own music I never heard it 100% syngron with the speakers. These days I use the PLW-15 with my way of Audyssey pro measurment. It is the first time I have the stealth integration I was looking for. |
By far and away Servo-Drive Tech7's.
For powered in home use nothing comes close to the Velodyne 1812. I heard a pair supporting a pair of Avalon Sentinels. Sounds like sever overkill but the presentation was sedately stunning.
For HT you could save a great deal by using any formidable sub without EQ/room correction since the HT processor would be handling those duties.
I had a REL Studio III, JL Audio 113, and a Velodyne DD-18, in the house for a side by side comparison a few years ago. The JL and the Velodyne were clear standouts. |
I have owned B&W, Aereal, Rel & JL Audio. I like JL Audio f113 best. They are very fast so I can use them for 2 channel as well as home theater. I still have 1 of my Rel's but I use it as a rear sub. It is a Stadium III. |
I've had a Paradigm servo 15, good sub. M&K MX-350 MK2 in really cherry wood. Good sub but just didn't have the low level extension. I now have a SVS PB13 Ultra and at 2 notches on the volume and -15 on my pre output level it is dynamicly robust .i do want to compare it to two SVS SB13 Ultras as I would like a smoother response and two will give tighter, faster bass. |
Well Matjet, I like subs that augment the main speakers and blend well. So for me it is the REL Britainia series. I have the B2. If you don't connect it off the main amp...then it will never blend and you will always be tweaking with it. I hate that, I never touch my REL its AWESOME. |
Custom built, 6' tall, 4' deep, 2.5' wide. Four 15" woofers in an isobaric arrangement. Double walled cabinet with the inner wall isolated from the outer wall, including panel deadoning components.
+/- 3db down to 18hz. Max SPL 120db. |
If money is not an option I would purchase the bass engine from a pair of the Scaena loudspeakers, they are 3 stacked per side 18 inch woofers in a specially designed cabinet.
They go, low, low, low, fast and articulate with massive pressurization. Check out HP soundings review of the Scaeana's
There is no substitution for massive displacement of six 18 inch bass drivers and a few thousand watts of juice!
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That honor goes to the new Ken Kresiel DXD12012! |
The two best subwoofers I have ever heard are the Revel B15 and the SVS SB13 Plus. I know there are better in subwoofer land but these are what I own and the best I have ever heard personally. Neither go the deepest(18Hz to 20Hz) but the mid bass punch and speed may be up there with the best.
I am using both of these in a 6000 cubic foot room and together the room does get pressurized.
Bill |
