I am looking for the best redbook CD player for 6K to 8K that will project a 3 dimensional hologram-like sound image. I am considering the Mark Levinson 390S CD player. I am open for suggestions concerning comparisons between this and other CD players of equal or better sound quality. Universal players are out of the running since I own only redbook CDs. The fickle finger of fate has not made up it's mind about the next generation of media technology. So until then I will be patient and enjoy what I have.
I wish the modders would give their iterations designations. Without that, it makes comparisons very difficult. Makes it particularly difficult for someone considering a used unit.
I owned an earlier Exemplar and now own the "latest" one (well, it was "latest" as of about 1 1/2 years ago). I found the first one too "analytical" in the treble; but the second one just about right. I have no idea whatsoever what the changes were to the player, however, or whether Tvad and I had similar Exemplar units. Just wanted to add my thoughts.
John Tucker: can you tell us the different versions by date? Or by some other designation?
Tvad - Thanks for the detailed info. I have always wondered the nature of the sonic differences between these two players. One follow-up question: Were these differences consistent for CDs and SACDs? Or was there a more pronounced difference in one format over the other? TIA!
"The digital player I have owned that rendered the most lifelike 3D holographic image is the APL Denon 3910. It was scary.
Other players I have owned include Exemplar Denon 3910, Exemplar Denon 2900, Empirical Audio EMC 1-UP SE, Modwright Sony 999ES, Marantz SA-14, APL Phillips SACD1000, Shanling T200."
Hi Tvad - Did you have the latest version Exemplar 3910 with the tube output stage (please pardon the rookie-like question)? And did your APL 3910 also have a tube output stage (what DACs/how many, and what type of power supplies)? If so, did you compare the two side-to-side?
It would be great if you (or anyone else who has compared them) can please detail your findings, specifically in the SACD and/or HDCD performance of these two players. I just ran across this thread, but I will also do a search in case this info was shared previously.
Used the Cx-7e...I wasn't so impressed with the Ayre, it was a nice piece, involving. I thought it sounded a little hollow compared to what I have now. Sounded tingy and pitched at times, no warmth. But the biggest characteristic I notice from that player to the combination I use now is detail. I get so much detail out of the Brick I am simply amazed. Today I went to a dealer to audition the Super 8's in an effort to get a more efficient speaker than my 804's. They hooked them up to some serious equipment. Nagra Pre Amp, Nagra CD player, Moon amp and so on...I gotta be honest, and I am the first to point out a weakness in my system, in fact I look for them. But I felt like my current set up in most ways, sounded better than what I heard today. I was with my friend and he agreed that he expected more, especially at those prices.
I also auditioned the Dynaudio Contour 1.4, and they were totally outperformed by the Super 8's. But in the end I am like the warmth of my B&W's, I know there is better out there, but I love the sound signature of B&W, it is what brought me into hi-fi.
I couldn't be happier with my set-up, so much so that I am upgrading to the Cosecant. Not because I am unhappy with the Brick-it is awesome! But I wanted a little more bass, and power, and the Cosecant matches my equipment better. Not to mention it looks great. Should have it in a month.
A Meridian 808 has a more natural sound. A lot more weight and control in the low freq. Also it gives more texture and resolution comparred to a ML 390. And it has a better individual focus and more depth.
Cwlondon- really? Let's test your memory..Name me one or two that were on the same scale as a CD player at the time?
And quite honestly, it is not an apples to apples comparison anyway, so making that comparison directly is not accurate. I was simply comparing the purchase of a CD player now.
A USB DAC is something that has really created it's own class. But it is similar to CD in the sense there is a transport (the PC) which is more stable and incredibly flexible, and also in the sense there is a DAC. However it is has become a seperate of it's own, completely carved out from the chassis of the CD player chassis. Something we all know the value of. I am not trying to impose any opinions here, other than saying the CD itself is (to quote a phrase) dead, dead, dead. For a multitude of reasons...One being it was nothing more than a transitional medium in the grand scheme of digital playback. The other reasons we are all aware of, online music, iPods, iTunes, convenience etc.
Who knows though, in a year or two we could be describing USB DACs in much the same way. But one thing is for sure, CD's won't be revisited and to spend alot of money on one now only says one thing. You're not familiar enough with a PC/MAC to take the plunge.
trust your ears and answer the question for yourself. it's a matter of trial and error. listen to as many players as possible and buy what you like. the opinions as to what is "best" cannot be extrapolated onto another person. you have a unique set of ears, brain and preferences.
Jc51373 - We understand your affection for the brick and related products. Certainly something that I think I'd like to check out.
But for now...I am even more hugely satisfied with my Upgrade Company DV-50. I have had an EMM CDSA-SE here for more than a week. The EMM is a very nice player indeed, but I like my TUC DV-50 much better. I am most pleasantly surprised.
I am always concerned when heavy and expensive equipment is running the risk of being blown away. . . must be global warming or something causing the problem.
If you buy and expensive CD player you are making a mistake in overlooking USB DACs. I have a Wavelength Audio Brick and blows aways most of the $4000 players out there. Ayre being one of them.
Honestly, do yourself a favor and give a hard look to Wavelength Audio products, they are second to none. Computer convenience, with Audiophile sound.
On the Question of the Ayre C 5X, i asked a dealer recently, how the CX 7e stacked up against it on CD alone. He said at a recent session with customers, they could'nt hear any meaningful difference. I presume some of you guys disagree and think the C 5X is ahead on red book.
Congrats Redwoodgarden! Just in case you missed it, there is an updated version of the UX-3 called the UX-3 SE. You will find details at: http://www.teac.com/esoteric/UX-3_SpecialEdition.html
The best that I have heard live is the new Chord duo, Transport + Converter, so real that seemed unreal.For sure the software and the class A rig helps. Regarding the moddings issue the difference are the persons as human being, bad and goods.I´m having really big problems with Audiocom UK http://www.audiocominternational.com/, after 9 months I´m still waiting for my DVD player I payed in advance to receive only smoke. Bad people don´t go to heaven and for people with no dignity, sooner or later the bad reputation will do justice...I hope. But there are modders and modders, so I´m not shooting free.
I have concluded that the best redbook player for me is not what I expected at all. The best sounding CD player is actually a universal player. The Esoteric UX-03 is in my price range (maybe a little over) and is the best sounding player that I've heard. It's built like a tank so I know it is reliable; and it also plays SACDs and DVDs which is icing on the cake. I know that in the future if I want to broaden my horizons, the option is there. I foresee that the only other player I'll need is a highend Bluray player which will play all media with the highest perceivable detail. This is only a pipe dream at this time. For the here and now, Esoteric UX-03 will fit my needs.
I suggest to give the ARC CD-7 a listen before you buy in this price range! This player is very musical without any digital harshness, very good 3d soundstage and it reproduces the human voice natural and engaging! It is my favourite cdp at this time and i use it with outstanding belles 28a pre and two belles 350 A Reference monoblocks, speakers are SPTech Revelations MKII. A comparison between CD7 and EMMLabs would be interesting, i couldn´t do that at my home untill now but would be very interested in arguments from people who compared both directly in one session! Enjoy music and take care, Ralph
Hey Redwoodgarden, any news? How did the search end? Or is it still work in progress? Just curious what was your choice or what did you like out of the units you auditioned.
Hi Guido ,thank you for all of your suggestions and constructive criticisms. I value the opportunity to fine tune the Apl Hi Fi operation and I take all input seriously.
My recent barbules aside, for which I apologize, I am truly happy that Brent is part of the APL tribe. A creator of your caliber does need and deserve a business manager of the same stature for the company to thrive and grow. And yes, I do confess a little pride for my 60Lbs bundle of joy X-01 Limited. What ;utterly amazes me is that as good as it is, I fully realize there is already something even better out there, stock or modified as it may be. And the trend of rapid improvement in the digital arena will continue for the foreseeable future. . . mind boggling indeed!
If the creature were not so darn heavy I would likely take my X-01 with me in my next trip to SF. I would love to use it as a benchmark while listening to your NWO-2 creation, which has undoubtedly exceeded the X-01 Limited's already considerable musical prowers. more realistically however, I will wait for an APL tribesman to materialize in Austin with an NWO-2 in his system for some cheery cross-auditioning fun!
Gentleman, I believe that we are all good hearted and intelligent enough so we can remain good friends, like always. There is no need for clever words war because it will take us nowhere.
Guido, you have always been very good friend and also respected member of the APL Hi-Fi forum. I have always valued your feedback and input very much. Now you are in love with the stock X-01 and I have nothing against that. I am sure that one day you will audition a NWO player and then we can have more reasonable and productive discussion on this subject.
As far as APL customer service and satisfaction goes, Brent Rainwater has made enormous difference. To say Thank You Brent even 1000 times will not be enough.
I'd also want to say Thank You to all APL family members for their continued support and faith in APL Hi-Fi!
Guido, If the changes made in the APL forum content reflect the emerging new reality at APL, why use the word 'spin' and 'artful redirection', which are pregnant with negative connotations. Those are not the phrases that come to my mind with a straight shooter like Brent. Perhaps, you didn't mean to suggest any negative connotations. In any case, in view of your previous posts on this thread, your choice of words raised my eyebrows.
TVAD, the controversy seems to have started by a generic remark I posted on 06/14, which was not at all mentioning APL, nor it was especially written with APL in mind. While other modifiers took the high road, APL took exception to my statement. That was their right and they exercised it. So did I exercise my own right to pursue the subsequent discussion. A healthy debate between manufacturers and consumers can only benefit the hobby as a whole. The exchange between ALEX, Brent and I has been quite placid and urbane, and I hope relatively informative. I only regret that the three of us ended up highjacking this perfectly good thread with our side discussion. What do you say Brent and Alex, should we now retire in good order, pay for broken bottles and stools, and leave this particular watering hole in peace?
Before someone calls in the Audiogon MPs, that is?
John, reality is always more complex than we'd like it to be. There is no contraddiction in what I wrote. Brent has wisely introduced standard business management techniques at APL. He has raised customer satisfaction by introducing clear scheduling and customer service methodologies. At the same time he has very rapidly removed most traces of gangrenous discussions on customer service issues from the APL fora to 'move things along', as he said. While consumers would like to think the contrary, businesses do not survive by 'peaches & cream' alone. A small amount of draconian marketing communications measures are occasionally required to refloat an enterprise, such as pruning surface evidence of mixed past record of customer sat.
"Brent, I am in fact delighted you joined APL and that you are heading the company's transformation into a successful OEM. I did witness a marked reduction in public customer gripes on the APL forum over the last few months. and am confident you will be able to address the few residuals over the next several weeks. I also understand the need to purge the forum from old diatribes that were at the time all but festering. On the other hand, myself working for a large company, I do appreciate that the market communications specialist attempts to 'move things in a positiv direction' are most invariably perceived by the outsider as 'spin', or at least as artful redirections, and that this alternative perception is not of necessity flawed."
Guido,
According to the first part of your paragraph, you witnessed "a marked reduction in public customer gripes on the APL forum" since Brent came on board. In the second part of the paragraph, you quote Brent's intention to 'move things in a positive direction' in the context of your experience that perception of 'spin' is not necessarily flawed. The juxtaposition of these notions in the same paragraph by an articulate person such as yourself raised my eyebrows. Surely, you don't think this improvement at APL resulted from Brent's 'spin' and not from his substantive efforts:)
Interesting how a search for a CD player for 6K to 8K becomes a discussion of $10K+ Esoteric equipment.
If Redwoodgarden is still looking for the best redbook CD player for 6K to 8K, I suggest he wait for Aplhifi's new transport and DAC to become available.
Brent, I am in fact delighted you joined APL and that you are heading the company's transformation into a successful OEM. I did witness a marked reduction in public customer gripes on the APL forum over the last few months. and am confident you will be able to address the few residuals over the next several weeks. I also understand the need to purge the forum from old diatribes that were at the time all but festering. On the other hand, myself working for a large company, I do appreciate that the market communications specialist attempts to 'move things in a positiv direction' are most invariably perceived by the outsider as 'spin', or at least as artful redirections, and that this alternative perception is not of necessity flawed.
I do not give a terrible amount of credit to editorial reviews, and unfortunately I have not listened to the UX-1 myself. I have selected the X-01 based on my own listening experiences and comparisons with several other reputed players, such as the APL 1000 and several others, rather than any editorial reviews. I am however thoroughly familiar with X-01 and X-01 Limited. In addition, audiophiles in the know, habitually posting to these pages, while conceding that the UX-1 yields a significant fraction of the performance of the original X-01 in RedBook and SACD, tend to indicate that there still exists an appreciable gap between the two models in audio performance. As such, in my view, the X-01 Limited and even more so the P03/D03 combo are at this time more valid benchmarks against the APL NWO family than the UX-1, while the X-03 SE should be used as a benchmark against the APL 3910, which according to what I have been reading on the APL fora, has recently been discontinued.
The UX-1's audio design is essentially a stripped down version of the X-01 design, rather than the two devices having 'identical topologies', with the UX-1 sporting half the number of DACs than the X-01. It is fair to point out however, that both devices are differentially balanced in the audio section, as you can read on the UX-1 page on the TEAC site: "A Burr-Brown 24-bit D/A converter is used as the audio D/A converter on all channels. In addition, a two-chip-per-channel differential configuration is used on the front L/R channels for improved linearity."
Yes, I also remember reading the report of the X-01 being removed from an audio booth at CES. Was the X-01 brand new or was it fully broken in? As I stated so many times, a brand new X-01 sounds hideous, and only after 500 hrs of break in the device is significantly good, with optimum performance being yielded somewhat after the 800 hours mark. Yes I do agree that the APL was a very good unit for its time and at its price point. It is also true its sound was engagingly sweet, and captivating, if slightly euphonic. Conversely, the X-01 is said to be accurate but 'merciless', with awesome macro and micro dynamics. I will take merciless anytime over slight euphony, but I do recognize that this is entirely a personal preference and decision. And about the X-01 sounding 'mechanical', I am quite befuddled. I have not heard a single CD player sounding mechanical in recent years, perhaps with the sole exception of the Accuphase DP-77, which while not exactly mechanical, does sound like a very expensive music synthesizer to me.
Looking forward to the opportunity of eventually hearing a member of the NWO product family in person,
For 3D sound, I'm surprised no one has mentioned either the new Cary 306 or the Lector CD7T. I haven't heard the ARC CD7 yet but based on previous players I'd say it is a must audition.
Personally, if I could spend 8K, I'd save up my sheckels and buy the next used/demo Reimyo that comes up for sale here.
Guido , I joined Apl Hi Fi for the sole purpose of reorganizing and streamlining operations to facilitate a more efficient transition to being an OEM. Part of my objective was to improve customer service. There was an immediate improvement in communication and efforts to resolve issues of delivered product. I was flooded with phone calls and e mails and worked till 4 am for 3 months on this important aspect of the company's operation. After I felt confident I had addressed these outstanding issues I did delete some forum threads that revolved around service issues . It was not done to obscure wrong doing but to refresh the site and keep it moving in a positive direction . I try and answer e mails and telephone calls within 24 hours.
The sonic character of the UX-1 and X-01 stock is very similar due to identical design topology and parts used. The X-01 has an edge because of its differential design. This said, there are number of reports online that you can find about the sound of these units and whether their overall sonics are matching the price. This has recently changed with the introduction of the Limited series and I am VERY happy to hear it. Esoteric deserves the recognition. I have not compared X-01 directly to a SACD1000, but number of people witnessed such comparison with X-01 and APL Denon at the CES Show this year. The X-01 was used for a digital source in one of the demo rooms at the show. After the comparison, the X-01 was removed from that system and the Denon was used till the end of the show. That was the personal preference of many in the room. The SACD1000 was very good for its time. It is still used by many audiophiles and industry associates who are really happy with it. There were also number of shootouts done by independent parties and for some reason they've reported that they like as much or, in some cases, prefer the SACD1000 over some highly regarded and expensive digital components. APL SACD1000 was awarded by Stereotimes too. As you said, it is a matter of a personal preference, but besides the fact that the SACD1000 will not have as good bass and top extension compared to the X-01, it will give you this very natural and engaging presentation that many people like compared to impressive but "mechanical" sound.
For the rest of your questions I might say that the price/performance ratio of the NWO series is extremely good given the way they perform against the competetion and SOTA vinyl rigs. This is our opinion and we are entitled to it.
It is clear that a re-designed unit can not be sent to Esoteric for warranty repair, but since Esoteric is well aware of what I do and support me, parts availability is not an issue.
When it comes to reliability the VRDS-NEO transport is the best in the world and should last forever. The maintenance of the re-engineered unit is at a slightly higher but well deserved cost and involves around $50 for tubes replacement every 4-5 years.
Sure, Esoteric has a better product supply record than I do, but we are working very hard in order to fix this issue. Also, Esoteric is a very large company compared to APL, but for APL this is just the beginning. Let us hope for a bright and successful future.
What I can say is that Alex is doing a great service to the audio community as are his contemporaries. The work , effort and study required to redesign digital and push the limits of performance benefits everyone who is interested in the digital playback medium.
Alex, only Babybear, who is currently away on vacation, has the exact list of ECs and value of his unit, which was not however a basic modified unit, but a maximized one. He only can comment on its cost further on his return. On the other hand, at the time of my audition, there was a general confidence in you and the APL tribe alike, that any APL unit would outperform any stock player of any price. A more realistic position should be that at any price point, a quality and well re-engineered unit may have a greater than average chance of outperforming a stock unit of similar market value. I did go into the audition fully expecting the APL 1000 to outperform the X-01. It did not. The opposite was true, by a significant margin. Setting realistic customer expectation is part of Marketing/sales skill building. To tell the truth, I learned a few hard lessons in this area myself in my own work during recent times.
Concerning X-01 vs NWO-2, the issue is not so much that of NWO-2 yielding higher performance than X-01, but:
1. Does the targeted re-engineered player exceed the performance of stock players in its own market price point, where the price is the typical transaction price for such units, rather than their list price.
2. Does any performance advantage of the re-engineered player for the automatic and immediate loss of manufacturer's warranty coverage on the original unit? Please note that TEAC has stated very clearly that they will not repair any modified machines, regardless of its warranty status.
3. Will the re-engineered unit be as reliable as the original, or will it require a greater or smaller amount of maintenance?
4. Which company has the best track record for most reliable customer order/tracking/delivery management, and post sales customer service?
A certain amount of research online and offline may assist a consumer in making a decision. Ultimately, it may simply come to personal taste, preferences, or beliefs.
Seems like having a lights out CD player is a relatively safe investment over the long term. I think there are a fair number of people who hesitate over going all the way out of fear the unit will end up being a big paperweight. And, in the days where no one really knows where the market is going, trying to maximize performance via a modder (such as yourself!) makes even more sense.
I'm quite happy with my players (2 year old Samsung Universal, 4 year old Sony SACD, and 3 year old Granite CDP), and have experienced trouble free service (knock on wood), and think modding one of two of them would be a good idea for me.
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