"once you are immersed in the music."
For me, that's all that matters. It either sounds "right" or not. Once it does, I am able to be immersed in the music which is all I ask for. |
Admission- One of my personal "dream" turntables (so far) would be a VPI TNT-6 (no longer made) with a heavy platter upgrade and a Benz High-End cartridge, with the SDS motor controller, 12in. JMW arm. my current phono stage is a Lukaschek which is "supposed" to be quite good. i love the fact that it has no settings to adjust at all...
And i would like to compare THAT to other tables costing "whatever". No, of course i don't expect it to sound AS good as a Walker or (fill in the blank) but i want to see if the differences are really that great once you are immersed in the music. i would want to use clean-copy decent recordings, but NOT necessarily audiophile pressings (since i only have a few).
Just so more of my (amateurish) thoughts. we're still talking over $7500 here so even this example is hardly cheap, but it might just keep ME happy for a very long time. Or hell, why NOT the SME-30 (or an Amazon reference?). |
Raul, Your "main target" for TT design sounds right. Neutral, and speed stable and accurate. The latter can be verified with the Timeline or similar measuring instrument. The former is a bit more of a challenge as "neutrality" is subjective in this case. As far as internal or external vibration isolation/dampening is concerned, that too can be measure to some extent by instruments.
I have read no professional reviews which attempt to verify speed issues with the Timeline and rarely do reviewers listen with a stethescope or simlar device for vibrations. Perhaps these forums could be a place for sharing these test data for various owners tables if we really want to "know" the truth. |
Dear Vicks: Well MF has good reason$$ to give that nod to the Caliburn. Is sad to tell but today I trust less and less on " pro "-reviewers, no one is un-biased. Yes, through the years I learned many audio subjects from them but now???
I trust higher in every single NVS owner as all the ones posted here because some way or the other all of us " mere mortals " are looking for the same: non-biased ( $$$$$ ) highest quality performance level on each one audio system to reproduce recorded MUSIC.
I love the NVS looks and " only " for that I could be a proud owner, unfortunately I have not that kind of money but I hope to have sooner or latter the opportunity to give a listen to.
Now, it is obvious for all the first hand testimonies that something different is happening down the NVS " land and this thread gives me an opportunity to share some thoughts that I had and have for years with no true or real answers elsewhere, maybe the NVS design is that " answers ":
what suppose that a TT must do, a perfect TT ( theory )?: spin with absolute accuracy at 33.1/3rpm with no speed fluctuations in the very short and long times.
Making that job in absolute dead neutral vibration/noise/resonances-FREE playback to transmit NOTHING to the platter and from here to the LP and obviously nothing from the TT to the arm board.
This is IMHO the first main TT target and the second one could be : to aisle the TT from external induced vibrations/resonances/noises.
There are other TT design targets but the idea is that the TT it self has NO single " negative/positive " influence in the cartridge/tonearm work: we are looking for dead accurate and neutral job, a perfect TT.
Well, we all know that that TT does not exist ( at least I don't know it:yet. ) so any one of us has not that REFERENCE to compare against it.
Each one evaluation/comparisons we make it against other similar TTs and through our each one experiences these are our reference(s) but we really don't know how the perfect TT could " sound " we don't have the true reference at all ( the ones that likes R2R is a different reference and I don't want to open other " window " about. ).
So what are we hearing/evaluating through any TT as the gorgeous NVS? is it a real improvement? is it to be nearer to the perfect one or only different kind of " distortions " that like us more?
We can/could think that we are nearer to the perfection because the new TT ( NVS ) sounds to us better compared on what we heard/owned in the past.
Some of you mentioned Rockport or Walker but IMHO we can't compare two TTs where in one we have a different tonearm than in the other.
In the other side we have not almost any single information/measures from almost any single TT manufacturer that could tell us: how near or away is that TT design from that first main target design:
+++++ " absolute dead neutral vibration/noise/resonances-FREE playback to transmit NOTHING to the platter and from here to the LP and obviously nothing from the TT to the arm board. " ++++ ?????
That for me is critical and an important subject for us as an audiophiles and customers. I would like to know for sure where I'm seated.
All of you know that sooner or latter will appear another " perfect " TT that we will like it more than the NVS and that's will be because it is the " perfect " one or only a different handle of distortions.
If I'm going to pay 50K or 150K for a TT: I WANT TO KNOW.
IMHO as an audio item customers and as audiophiles we have to improve our self and be more exigent with the audio item manufacturers for them take the job to design products that really fulfil our quality level expectations to enjoy the MUSIC in a near perfect way.
So what are you hearing through the NVS or what you own? the perfect one? or are we hearing only a good TT where we paid for it not for the highest quality performance but for its weight/kgs?
The trend on the last years on TT designs is: more $$$ for more metal kilos and I think that the weigthy ones are still to come. No, I'm not saying that the NVS is only that: kilos, NO and yes I would like to be aproud owner of it as any one of you!.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
David,
above you mentioned how much you liked the SME 30 when you heard it. i agree it's a fine turntable. you see used one's with an SME arm in the 'around' $15k + or - range frequently. you could do much worse than buying one of those, adding a cartridge and phono stage and seeing how you liked it. they are built like tanks so a used one well cared for should be trouble free.
it would be fairly easy to sell if it did not seem worth it to you.
you'd be hard pressed to find a new tt and arm for $15k that would offer more....or even as much. there would be other alternatives of course, but since it is a reference for you already why not start there. then it's your ears you are trusting. the best choice i think.
as far as....
"i just want to believe that ok, for $10K-$15K, a big chunk of cash, someone could build a turntable/arm with EVERY bit of advanced technology available and DARE anyone to get more MUSIC out of the groove. May the 1st contestant step forward please."
.....from what my ears tell me nothing is even close to that happening. it's telling about the cost of production of high tolerance pieces that modified vintage tt's in that price range exceed the performance of new ones in that price range. |
French,
I'm with you in the playing records right ain't rocket science these days camp.
If one drops thousands on a turntable and it DOESNT sound good, then there is a problem. |
For $70,000+ i would certainly hope the turntable in question would sound good, especially to those who have spent the money to own one. forgive me if i think of all of the state-of-the-art tables at every price point under the sun (and moon) ALSO sound SO AMAZING!!!!!! ETC.!!!! that they TOO are worth the
money. But not being able to audition every great turntable in existence leaves me a bit confused. Fremer didn't break the VPI-Classic-3 BTW, and IT TOO sounded great, a real game-changer/whatever- not that i care what he thinks anyway. what i do care about is separating music appreciation from hyperbole.
and that seems impossible to do without making people defensive or bringing in the "if you can afford it that's ok, you deserve it". how much do these beautiful contraptions really REALLY cost to manufacture? I know NASA has to spend whatever it takes to bring a prototype to a full working model (or two).
but this is not a matter of getting something to land on the moon or explore Mars FGS. i don't know, the whole business just seems a bit off the wall IMO.
i just want to believe that ok, for $10K-$15K, a big chunk of cash, someone could build a turntable/arm with EVERY bit of advanced technology available and DARE anyone to get more MUSIC out of the groove. May the 1st contestant step forward please... |
One must wonder what Fremer does to the equipment he tests. I find it puzzling that so much of the equipment he reviews tends to break or malfunctions so easily. Didn't he destroy one of the darTZeel monoblocks he reviewed a couple of months ago so that it had to be sent back to Switzerland to be fixed? How on earth do you fry a monoblock that is hand-made like a tank? Didn't he also almost fry one of the MBL monoblocks? Something about the interconnecting cables not matching, if my memory serves me correctly. The man certainly possesses a vast knowledge of the analog, but I question his ability to actually use the equipment as it's meant to be used during his reviews. Just some food for thought in this polemic... |
Sorry for, essentially, a double post. I made the 1st one yesterday afternoon and when it wasn't posted by late evening I reposted, thinking the initial post was lost somewhere in cyberspace.
I should add that I've owned several belt, idler and direct drive tables over the years- JA Michel Orbe, Basis Debut V vacuum, Jean Nantais Lenco and EMT 948. The Lenco and EMT were both completely restored, including custom plinths, arm boards and contemporary high end tone arms. At Rocky Mountain I've heard countless other high dollar tables of every drive method and never walked away truly satisfied.
I am now truly satisfied! |
I own an NVS owner and am delighted with the turntable. It is the best vinyl transducer I have heard to date. The dynamic drive is far superior to any belt or idler wheel drive table in my experience. The bass is deeper, tighter and more linear than I've previously heard. The overall presentation is full, rich, completely and naturally detailed. It's the whole package, rendering the information in the groves in total and complete resolution. It just, simply, sounds right. I say this because I find nothing annoying, nothing I'd like to change or tweak- I'm at ease when I listen. The fact that MF finds it a virtual toss-up against the mega $$ Caliburn is a nice bonus.
My understanding is that the reported bearing damage on the show unit was due to inferior packaging which has been completely rethought and reworked. The current palletized wood crated package is a thing of beauty.
My unit has been completely trouble free and has functioned flawlessly.
In response to Syntax: I find your ranting indictment of so many highly regarded turntables a pointless exercise in opinionated arrogance and, if I'm not mistaken, your Lyra Olympus retailed around $12k- do as I say, not as I do!! |
Syntax, Did you forget to mention the SME 30? It is an old design, not mentioned much in forums, only once hyped by MF in a review, uses the dreaded belt-drive mechanism and rubber bands for suspension. It doesn't need constant tweaking. There is no bling appeal. Oh, and it can't accommodate two arms. It was designed by engineers, though. With ears ;^) |
This thread would be more worthwhile if people commented on tables that they had actually listened to.
Syntax - I believe you have not even listened to the NVS.
Yet again, on this forum, a thread goes off the rails with the ramblings of those with axes to grind. I visit this website less and less each month as a result. |
Rockport Sirius III
The American Altar, but the Arm wire inside is so stiff that the Arm can not
track the inner 3 tracks properly, it skips, the only way out is to use a very
heavy cartridge,
.. I can promise you that is not the case! As mentioned in the other thread, I am sure the Sirius III you worked with was either damaged or not set up properly. I have 2 Rockport 6000s, which share the same wire/arrangement as the Sirius III arm, and I have never encounter problem with stiff wire in the past 10 years. I have used both relatively high and low compliance cartridges on them with absolutely no problem with tracking. Granted, you may not like the sonic performance of the Rockport, but saying that it can't track the inner 3 tracks properly is absolutely not true. |
Well now!
This should be a great thread considering the passion for analog among some very opinionated & some knowledgeable members.. Some bring very constructive dialog to the table while some just love to run their mouth & carry (force) their agenda where ever they can spew it out.
Lets see if I can add a bit to whats already been said.
Eddie your input on the NVS was spot on to my findings.
I have not had any issues with my table.
Packing / delivery was suburb as well as set up.
What more could you ask for? The shipping crate could with stand a small explosion!
Set up was a breeze. No more freaking pumps!!! ahhhhh.
I concur you have to spend time setting up the arm & cartridge.. check, recheck, & check again &&&&. Such is the life in the analog world. Spend the time & you will be rewarded is all I can say.
This table has been the best table I've ever owned & have ever heard. I know this is my opinion (in my system) & I respect what others own. We all should feel comfortable with what we purchased. Regardless of price..
I state these opinions after owning or spending time with many a VPI, to many to list! The Walker, Grand Prix, Rockport, Linn, Thorens, & Upgraded Technics sp10 mk I& II.
others as well... Some of these tables were great in their own right & I do not mean to degrade them, I just like the NVS.
I would love to hear / compare the Caliburn someday to see how close or better this table may be. Can't afford it anyway but it's nice to hear others as MF feel that the NVS gets you close.
I have talked to a few who say they preferred the NVS, so of course to each their own.
As with Ed & Mike I also use RTR tape as my reference & this table arm combo come as close to tape as I've heard & yes on some source material equals & some even betters.
In combination with the Durand Telos, I still am awed at what comes off the groves. Bass extension & definition / excellent!
As MF stated, image & soudstage with great three-dimensionality & depth.. best I have heard a combo do.
Air, space & more air, clarity, detail, speed, & well you get my drift.
I could go on & on but I would say don't let anyone sell this table short.. go listen for yourself & draw your own conclusion.. I will warn you you will be awed!!!!!!!
World Class? yes! |
My experience with the NVS has been nothing short of amazing. The shipping crate was built like a brick #$!& house! No issues with the bearing damage or damage to any other part of the TT.
Setup was a piece of cake! As MF mentions.... Get everything level, plug in the power supply unit and the table is done. They remaining parts (tonearm and cartridge) are the typical challenges for most any tables right? My Talea II came with great instructions and I was able to mount and dial it in within an hour or so. Further tweaking ALWAYS occurs with my setups as I'm a "check, check and re-check" kinda guy.
Performance has been mind blowing. This table can and will convey a very "tape like" presentation. My frame of reference is a Studer A80 Preview Machine along with an AMPEX ATR-102.
Bass has great authority, sound staging is wide and deep. Quiet? As Fremer mentions "...It didnt take long to hear that the NVS produced dead-quiet backgrounds similar to the blacknesses produced by the Caliburn and Onedof. Only the best tables Ive heard (which are not necessarily the most expensive, the VPI Classic 3 being a case in point) can manage this level of deep, satisfying nothingness, out of which the music seems to leap. Only the best belt drives and the Rockport Technologies System III Sirius, another direct-drive model, have managed this kind of background blackness."
My NVS is a world class table IMHO and that's all that matters to me. I never heard a table that engages me the way the NVS does. I'm about enjoying the music.... not picking nits with what I'm listening to. If I can get a TT at a approx. 1/3 of what a Caliburn goes for. Throw in the fact that MF might not be able to identify either TT in a blind listening test then I did good! All I know is what I like and the NVS fits that bill! |
As the owner of an NVS I feel compelled to comment on my findings and experience with the turntable. To my ear, direct drive 'tables have always sounded more smooth, powerful and dynamic than belt, rim, idler or other drive mechanisms. Outside of one vintage Technics DD model, which, if you can find one, sell for upwards of $20k when replinthed and rebuilt there are few direct drive TT options available at anywhere near the NVS price point. This is one reason I became interested in this 'table.
Of greater importance is the sonic abilities of the NVS, which when mated with the Durand Talea II and Ortofon A90 far surpassed any other 'table I have heard to date.
Additionally, I have had ZERO mechanical problems of any kind with this unit. My understanding is that the bearing issue was due to the original packaging being inadequate and this packaging- plastic flight case with foam too soft to correctly protect the unit- was subsequently completely rethought and redesigned to a palletized wooden crate system. This new crate system is a marvel to behold and I have heard of no other freight damaged units being reported.
I am completely satisfied with my NVS and feel it provides performance as good or better than ANY turntable at ANY price available today new or used. Considering it is considerably less expensive than the Caliburn it could be viewed as a bargain in the not so sensical world of big boy's toys and bleeding edge analog reproduction . |
I want to point out that it might be possible with the Linn lp12 to get really close to the best, for a lot less money, with their Radikal DC motor. Yes, a lot of their upgrades are expensive, and might not be needed as much. Unfortunately, I've not taken the plunge yet, but in comparison to those other expensive alternatives listed by Syntax, this may be a way to approach the best with a reasonable cost alternative(especially if you already own a Lp12). I'm not advocating a purchase here, just an audition. |
Can I mention the flaw in the review of the Clearaudio Ovation turntable in this same issue of Stereophile? The use of a preamp that turns analog into digital at 192kHz and 18 bits, while seemingly logical to the reviewer, and possibly an answer to the question about digital versus analog(although I doubt it), renders the review of the turntable almost useless. I have heard digital copies of turntables that I think I could live with, but, at the least, there is a drying up, almost mechanical aspect, to the sound, I believe. Certainly, this is flawed logic, as assumptions are made that aren't backed up by evidence. I'm not as worked up as I was initially, as the supplier pointed out this defect in methodology. |
....the kiss of death....
In Analog we will find everything but in my opinion, lots of those units became
a Boutique Character (expensive bottle, cheap fluid inside). All those expensive
units have one in common (when we look back):
GREAT Reviews, lots of Hype
and at the end of Day it was more or less nothing to write home about
(sonically). Some examples?
Goldmund Reference
The Mother of Hype, but the moving Arm changes Azimuth in every groove, the
table itself has a good soundstage, but details are all smeared AND it destroys
every cantilever after some time.
Rockport Sirius III
The American Altar, but the Arm wire inside is so stiff that the Arm can not
track the inner 3 tracks properly, it skips, the only way out is to use a very
heavy cartridge, but the cantilever will be destroyed very soon. And the sound is
ultra thin, completely lifeless without any body. Great engineering, missing the
sonic target by a mile.
Montegiro
A super expensive German Turntable 30k+, endless rave and hype and during
its demo at the High End Show the bearing broke. A typical example for
Boutique. Now they are available for 1/5th price, company is out of business.
Continuum
Framers Finest. I listened to it 3 times, professionally set up from the Importer.
2x it was defect and the 3 time the connected Phonostage had a problem (or
the Arm wire, Phonamp, Cartridge). I always said "Mono IS interesting"
Anyway, that Company is also more or less out of Business what
Australians wrote me. Buy replacement Parts NOW.
Airtangent
The Mother of of all Airliners. Super, super expensive at that time, Hype
endless, bloody knees from Audiophiles - from kneeling in front of it - was
normal, even more expensive with optional remote VTA....but it never worked
properly. The Airflow in some areas was not constant, so..well, you can
imagine...
NVS
The Mother of a "Game-Changer" Product, defect bearing while RMAF but some
wrote, even with that defect bearing it sounded fantastic (great or?) and in some
discussions in Seattle area some buyers wrote how happy they are now
"being a member of the Club."
A pity that the thread about was deleted :-)
No knowledge (from the whole Chain Manufacturer-Distributor-User) about
shipping, no knowledge about platter mechanism, no damping was a result of
that damage and honestly, buying a product from "Engineers" who
have absolutely no idea about technical connections ...well, good luck.
Thorens Reference
The Audiophile Answer from Germany to Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Heavy and it will show every visitor "Hey, I am something serious"
In real life you can get the identical sonic quality from every 2-3k$ turntable
today. But the motor management is good.
Wood Arms
Well, let's face the truth, a piece of wood at a string or 'in long' for 16K$ has to
be touched from God AND made from some ultra secret, mystic material, stolen
from the NASA...Energy transfer? What is THAT, we want Emotion... well,
Boutique,...Geometry? Pardon, WHAT? The best bearing is no bearing...
blubber...
Of course you need a 12k+++ Cartridge to get the full sonic impact the Arm is
able to deliver
Linn
Well, even after 30 years they find revolutionary 'improvements'...in a way the
ARC Company in analog. To catch the same customer again and again, that's
brilliant. Sonically? When you want a different sound, all you have to do is to
open the window...
Of course, all owners, no matter from what expensive product, will write that
their unit is an exception and is working like a charm etc. But let's face the
facts: It is the money what counts.
The wealthy Audiophile likes to show others how clever he is and what
expensive units he owns, he wants the Respect to be accepted as an
"Experienced Audiophile" but at the end of day, he also wants
money when he sells that Sonic Wonder. Who writes "Yes, I have that T3F,
Rockport, ...and it is really inferior, but I like it?"
No one.
Is there a way out?
Of course.
Let's visit Dover and steal his Turntable :-) |
Sorry for forgetting the phono stage in my 1st entry... that can run a bit more....
The best turntable i ever got to hear was the SME 30 playing Jobim records at an audio show. the sound was pure magic, no argument. i got to stare at a classic Goldmund Reference turntable a few times at a local dealer- and words fail me when i try to describe the effect that had on me.
i just don't want to be the one who has to find the perfect VTA or some other tiny adjustment that dials in the best sound. my best efforts went to assembling a Thorens and that went quite well. but that's kid stuff compared to Fremerology.
Sometimes i have read about the extensive set-up procedures for certain high-end tables (taking two men two days) and i want to "get out an 8-track" in retaliation..... |
Well I hope this post doesn't put the kiss of death on it but I have a Final Audio Parthenon VTT1 turntable built in the 1970's before the big Micro's & Melco's even existed. It weighs 70kg+, with defined energy paths using copper, aluminium, gunmetal and SPZ ( no spongy rubbers or plastics exist in this deck ), platter mass 20kg, inverted bearing, thread drive and has an oscillator preamp to generate precise sine and cosine waves and power amplifier to drive the AC motor. It has never broken down in the 40 years it has been running, apart from replacing the drive thread. The oscillator preamplifier has never needed servicing and still has all the original components including electrolytic caps. The main bearing has negligible wear - according to an engineer friend the design of the bearing is such that wear does not affect the performance. It also passed the dreaded Sutherland Timeline test that has failed so many high end decks.
The cost of this deck in the 70's was about the same as a Toyota Corolla, so given the proliferation of CNC machinery etc there should be no barrier to producing something similar for $20-25k. I note that the Kondo Ginga which is the Final Audio in drag is around $60k.
I find it hard not to be cynical when super expensive components break down on review. The hapless customer certainly doesn't have the podium of a magazine and its readership for leverage on product failure. |
David,
i have 10,000 reasons (my Lp collection) to optimize vinyl. however, no doubt that top level vinyl performance does require a sizable commitment. and simply the physical commitment to the space, fine-tuning and energy to change Lps is not for everyone.
i'm less invested in my RTR master tapes, but only have around 125 (200-225 reels) of those. so the thing about vinyl is that there is so much great music on it.
there is a level of vinyl performance maybe at around $20k or a little higher 'all in' for hardware that get's you quite ways near that top level.....and maybe another level over $30k that gets even closer. that very top level is typically not a starting point for vinyl set-ups. and price is not always the best way to look at performance as there is lots of high performing gear that is not ultra expensive. although some of it is quite expensive. and certainly there are plenty of viewpoints on how that goes. |
vinyl still sounds better than digital. It's as simple as that. What's the cost of admission for top rate vinyl playback ? Pretty steep....but not necessarily Caliburn, walker, NVS steep....and let's not forget arm, cart and phono stage costs. |
I probably should not have been shocked by the price of the turntable Plus arm Plus cartridge (Plus a highly specialized stand for the turntable) -somewhere over $65K before you get to put on an album. I was also "not shocked" that the record player did not always "come up to speed" on the 1st attempt, i would be sending the motor and/or controller back the next day if that were to happen to me.
the review of the latest Walker is in the Abs.Sound too and it seems to also present some problems for its owners. at least they got it to sit level now thanks to a new pump modification.
I like records a lot, too, but making a big case out of how good the newest turntables are in extracting more and more information is STILL tempered by a number of very legitimate concerns. I don't know what the "magic number" is for a spending limit on analog playback- $10K? $20K? more? for me personally that would be NMT "10", but i am trying to understand the rationale is (beyond pride of owning a mechanical masterpiece) for putting so much EFFORT into that part of the hobby, with a $5 album as your software/weakest link. |
