I had 2 copies of Bjork's Telegram. One from BMG and one from Elektra. They sound very different. Ofcourse, they are not exactly 2 of the same CD... or are they?
Wash, Cut, Polish & Demagnetize
As I sat and read through the most recent threads on the "Agon" forum, I noticed a thread regarding "Glossary of Audio Myths". I noticed several comments regarding "greening" and demagnetizing CDs.
Without delving too deeply into the effects of laser light diffraction, deflection, dispersion and reflecting light from adjacent tracks creating "jitter", and to avoid reduntantly examining the fact that the aluminum "wafer" in a CD is not always just aluminum, but in many cases aluminum "alloy", I would like to attempt to dispel a few of these "myths".
Many CD manufacturing facilities use a coating of mold release agents on the manufacturing machinery and on the plastic substrate material in the actual CD to facilitate ease of handling throughout the manufacturing process. Somewhat similar to spraying a cooking pan with "PAM" to reduce sticking. The residual amounts remaining on the CD upon completion of manufacturing should be removed as it will cause minor deflection and loss of focus of the laser beam. Specialty chemicals are available specifically for this purpose. I wash the CDs thoroughly using Dawn dishwashing liquid and very warm water. I cannot confirm that this process is as effective as using the specialty chemicals, but it leaves the CD surface extremely clean and seemingly free from any "oily" feel.
I then cut the edge of the CD using an Audiodesk CD cutter. This process reduces the amount of laser scatter from exiting through the outer edge of the CD and flooding the inside of the CD transport with reflected laser light. By cutting a bevel on the edge of the CD, you actually reduce the edge surface area by which the diffracted laser light can disperse. Some may feel that this a bit excessive, but we must keep in mind that the results of these treatments are cumulative.
The next process involves applying CD "Green" to the beveled edge. The properties of the color value of the Green used in the majority of these coatings tend to absorb any stray laser light. I still, to this day, have not been able to figure out why Green is the color of choice although, I have been told that it is simply the values of each of these colors (Red laser light and Green) that work together in unison to "neutralize" the light. The initial washing of the CD also helps to enhance the adhesion of the green coatings.
Upon allowing the CD green to dry, I then apply CD diamond using 100% cotton balls, and polish using again, cotton balls. CD diamond is an optical enhancer similar to Optrix,
Vivid, etc. and also contains a anti-static component. Most of these "optical enhancers" work by simply filling in microscopic pores in the CD surface permitting a more direct transmission of the laser beam through the plastic substrate material to the actual CD surface.
The last step involves demagnetizing the CD using a Furutech RD-2 CD demagnetizer. CDs, contrary to what most people believe can and will become magnetized. The results are a less black background, a general "haze" and loss of detail. If Cds were made using pure aluminum with NO trace elements, this step might not be required.
The results of all this? Pretty damn amazing. Again, recognizing that the results of all of these steps are cumulative, when all is said and done, the improvement is quite significant. Although these steps may sound somewhat time consuming, each CD actually only takes about three minutes to complete.
I hope I have provided some insight as to "dispelling" some of these myths. I can, and will, stand by this process as time and time again these enhancements have made CDs a lot more listenable. And, I have dropped the jaws of many non-believers after they have heard the actual results.
Any comments regarding this process are welcome. Happy listening.
Without delving too deeply into the effects of laser light diffraction, deflection, dispersion and reflecting light from adjacent tracks creating "jitter", and to avoid reduntantly examining the fact that the aluminum "wafer" in a CD is not always just aluminum, but in many cases aluminum "alloy", I would like to attempt to dispel a few of these "myths".
Many CD manufacturing facilities use a coating of mold release agents on the manufacturing machinery and on the plastic substrate material in the actual CD to facilitate ease of handling throughout the manufacturing process. Somewhat similar to spraying a cooking pan with "PAM" to reduce sticking. The residual amounts remaining on the CD upon completion of manufacturing should be removed as it will cause minor deflection and loss of focus of the laser beam. Specialty chemicals are available specifically for this purpose. I wash the CDs thoroughly using Dawn dishwashing liquid and very warm water. I cannot confirm that this process is as effective as using the specialty chemicals, but it leaves the CD surface extremely clean and seemingly free from any "oily" feel.
I then cut the edge of the CD using an Audiodesk CD cutter. This process reduces the amount of laser scatter from exiting through the outer edge of the CD and flooding the inside of the CD transport with reflected laser light. By cutting a bevel on the edge of the CD, you actually reduce the edge surface area by which the diffracted laser light can disperse. Some may feel that this a bit excessive, but we must keep in mind that the results of these treatments are cumulative.
The next process involves applying CD "Green" to the beveled edge. The properties of the color value of the Green used in the majority of these coatings tend to absorb any stray laser light. I still, to this day, have not been able to figure out why Green is the color of choice although, I have been told that it is simply the values of each of these colors (Red laser light and Green) that work together in unison to "neutralize" the light. The initial washing of the CD also helps to enhance the adhesion of the green coatings.
Upon allowing the CD green to dry, I then apply CD diamond using 100% cotton balls, and polish using again, cotton balls. CD diamond is an optical enhancer similar to Optrix,
Vivid, etc. and also contains a anti-static component. Most of these "optical enhancers" work by simply filling in microscopic pores in the CD surface permitting a more direct transmission of the laser beam through the plastic substrate material to the actual CD surface.
The last step involves demagnetizing the CD using a Furutech RD-2 CD demagnetizer. CDs, contrary to what most people believe can and will become magnetized. The results are a less black background, a general "haze" and loss of detail. If Cds were made using pure aluminum with NO trace elements, this step might not be required.
The results of all this? Pretty damn amazing. Again, recognizing that the results of all of these steps are cumulative, when all is said and done, the improvement is quite significant. Although these steps may sound somewhat time consuming, each CD actually only takes about three minutes to complete.
I hope I have provided some insight as to "dispelling" some of these myths. I can, and will, stand by this process as time and time again these enhancements have made CDs a lot more listenable. And, I have dropped the jaws of many non-believers after they have heard the actual results.
Any comments regarding this process are welcome. Happy listening.
87 responses Add your response
I found this site about how compact discs work that may shed a little light on the topic. |
VIGGEN To effectively decide the effects of these tweaks you must have duplicate Cds, just buy them at the same time from the same store and they will be duplicates......don't mix different labels or editions. MPRIME I was going to mention that Cable Co is large seller of CD lathe and if you are really interested they can tweak 1-2 CDs for you to compare, or may-be even loan out unit from tweak library for small fee. HOWEVER......remeber this tweak cannot be removed and trimmed CDs will not sell on used CD market. |
Sam: I have purchased discs that were markered and / or "cut" from local music shops without even knowing it. That is, until i got them home. Quite honestly, the markered discs bothered me more than the "cut" discs for the above mentioned reasons. Obviously, someone in the Chicagoland area is performing either or both tweaks and those discs are being bought and sold via shops that offer used discs. I also agree with your suggestion of using identical discs. While my Brother and I have quite a few of the same discs, we had a hard time finding discs that actually were identical. Many had different spacing in terms of burned vs unburned areas, etc... Since both discs supposedly contained the same amount of info, one would have to wonder if one version would be easier to read than the other or if different materials were being used to store the data. I know that the BMG's and "store bought" discs supposedly contain the same info bit for bit, none of the BMG's resembled those from the original manufacturer. Sean > |
Another benefit in using the Audiodesk disc shredder, you can use the shavings as tinnsile, for your christmas tree. this will help "pay" for the Disk shredder. Also, you can shredd the edge of the cd so sharp, Your wife can use your cd's as cutlery for the kichen, doing this, the shredder has a great wife acceptace factor, another added bonus. |
Sean, what angle, etc. does this edge trimmer work at? Is there a corner radius? Is only the O.D. being beveled? I ask because I can turn the CD on a small bench lathe. For people here considering $600 for a CD lathe, realize you can buy a real bench lathe for $400 from Wholesale Tool. Has a 7" swing. Buscis2 http://www.harmonictech.com/furutech/magic/_series.htm does not work. Also show me the magnetic strength of ferrous impurites in the aluminum of a CD. Pure and total nonsense, IMHO of course. I'll bet inconsequential even running through an MRI machine let alone a CDP. Antistatic is another matter. I got the help of the engineering manager at one industrial fluids company and he supplied me with optical oil of greatest transparency to CD laser light and matched the refraction of the polycarbonate CD material. Did nothing to help the sound but if I got it on too thick did degrade the sound. Did get some optical oil from a local microscope supply house and that did WILD things to cymbals etc. Not repeatable for some reason. So I've settled on an industrial plastic cleaning solution which leaves no residue and spraying/polishing out CD with Novus #1. I did not find this smoothing out the sound as Sean noted. Then again Novus is not a coating like Auric etc. That $70 Vivid does sound interesting though. |
You're a funny guy Chichiuno. Have you ever considered a "stand-up" act? For some reason, I envision you having spent a lot of time in the principal's office when you were attending school. You did attend school, didn't you? Either that or countless hours spent in the "little boys room" reading Stereophile (and other) magazines. See how it all catches up? |
Sorry Cdc, and everyone else out there. One backslash too many. http://www.harmonictech.com/furutech/magic_series.htm |
I will pass along another tip, I listen to mainly non audiophile type Cds many of which can have avearge/below average sound with bright hard grainy treble and thin mid range etc. You can apply a 2nd treatment of Auric Illuminator polish gel to worst case Cds and it will refine treble even better than 1 treatment.......if you own below average recordings of these try this out. (For example early U2 or Cocteau Twins Cds) |
Sean, May I? Cdc, in response to your questions, in order: :The Audiodesk preferred bevel angle is 38 degrees plus or minus 30 minutes (1/2 degree). :There is no corner radius. Edge thickness (at the outermost portion of the CD after beveling should be approx. .025". :Yes, it is the outside diameter only that gets cut. :You could in fact purchase a bench lathe to perform the same operation. But you could also purchase a $300,000 Mikro Seiki CNC machining center and create a CNC command string to go along with it. If you were to use a bench lathe you would need to fabricate a fixture to maintain flatness of the CD while the machining operation was being performed. If the CD were to deflect under the pressure of the contact of the cutting tool, The recommended 38 degree cutting angle would not be maintained. :See my preceeding post for the CORRECT Furutech website. Sorry. :In regards to "ferrous impurities", that is not the only contributing factor to magnetism. The Furutech site will explain further. : I have no familiarity with "optical oils" being used in conjunction with application to the CD surface. I stress REMOVING any releases, oils or other impurities from the CD surface. :I assume when you say you tried Novus #1, you were applying it to clean the CD's surface. Novus #2&3 are scratch removers as Novus#1 is merely a plastic polish used for plastic and or polycarbonate surfaces. The manufacturers of most of the optical enhancers will explain that their products are "filling in" microscopic imperfections in the CD's plastic surface, enhancing light transmission of the laser reader. Cdc, I hope this provides the clarification you requested. And Sean, I didn't mean to "butt in", but I did want to respond to Cdc's questions addressed to me, and I figured I would kill several birds with one stone. |
No problem Buscis. As i've mentioned, these forums should be about sharing and learning for the good of the community, regardless of who can help provide the info. I couldn't remember the exact cutting angle anyhow : ) As far as trying to duplicate the results on some type of homebrew equipment or a lathe, all i can say is be very careful. Splintering CD's would not be fun nor very cost effective. In extreme cases, it might not be very healthy either if bits and pieces of shrapnel come flying out at high speed. As a side note, the Audio Desk unit has variable rotational speed and spins at a max of 9000 rpm. I always start off slowly and then build up speed. If you try to crank it up and then bring the cutting edge into contact with the disc, the cutting edge can either gouge the disc and / or crack it or get hung up on "casting flash" or a burr. Either way, the results are not pretty and the screeching sound will make you aware of a problem RIGHT away. I found this out the hard way when i did not clamp the disc down tight enough. The cutting edge caught the disc and held it in place while the platter continued to spin at 9 grand. As such, you have to have a very secure method of clamping the CD into place and hold it there under load while one is "trimming" the disc. As to my "belief" in the effectiveness of the "de-magnetizing" or "anti-stat'ing" CD's, i do think that the results are audible even if they aren't measurable. With that in mind, I would not call the results "plain as day" but i do think that the noise floor is reduced and the presentation is slightly more natural sounding. If one is to get the full benefit of such a treatment though, the plastic disc tray and mechanism that are so commonly found in most machines would also have to be "treated". Personally, i wipe down the tray and everything else that i can easily access inside the machine with "Static Guard" after applying it to a cloth. If you are going to do this, DO NOT wipe off the lubricant that might have been applied to the rails of the transport mechanism. The increased drag could result in the mechanism binding up and doing premature damage to the drawer motor. Sean > |
Buscis2 thanks, that pretty much explains it except which side is the bevel? Is the label side or read side larger in dia after beveling? I'll give this a try with Steely Dan's "Two Against Nature" since I have a couple of them. I followed your link and if this works for you that's fine. But I looked up aluminum alloys in Machinery's Handbook and aluminum is alloyed with copper, silicon, Manganese, Magnesium, or Chromium. Alloying composition listed down to .06%. So any iron impurities would be less than .06%. Have you ever tried to magnetize aluminum foil? Okay, I am stupid enough to be sucked into trying this. Although I don't have a pulsed capacitance magnetizer I can get high enough to prove (to myself at least) whether it can be done. Yes you could use a CNC turning center. You could also use an NC milling machine with a bevel cutter and interpolate a circular cut. But the point I was making is that the same job could be done for less money than your typical "audiophile" equipment. Yes I radially polish the disc using a microfiber lense cleaning cloth from Walmart ($1.99) and Novus #1. A little heavy breathing to fog up the CD shows up areas that need further polishing. Vocals, for example, are clearer using Novus than just a plastic cleaner alone IMS. I did not like other polishes like Mapleshade Microsmooth as it put scratches in the CD. Novus doesn't. |
Hi Cdc, The bevel is applied to the data side. The label side is the larger diameter (actually unaltered diameter). As you probably read, Furutech feels that the impurities in the aluminum in conjunction with the ferrous metals in the paint that provide the ability to become magnetized. I don't know. I can tell you that there is a definite improvement in the sound with just using the Furutech alone. You and I are absolute agreement on the cost of the Audiodesk @ $600.00. It's ridiculous. But then again, I also think it's ridiculous for someone to spend $6000.00 for a set of speaker cables. Yet many people do it. I personally feel that an investment of $600.00 becomes more understandable if you consider the amount of money you may have invested in your CD collection. I have over 700 CDs. figure that out at an average of $12.00 a CD. Yes, Novus is a great product although I have never thought of using it on CDs. Hmmm. |
You're correct Albert. And if you did add the costs of all materials involved in doing a complete treatment, I have a sneaky suspicion that the total costs would be less than $ 1.00 per CD. Considering the overall improvement, I feel that it is more than justifiable. And obviously, the more CDs you actually own, the lower the cost per CD processed. I have spent significantly more more money per CD purchasing XRCDs, MFSL CDs, and other "audiophile" CDs. I personally feel that the improvement provided by using this process, puts the average redbook CD on the same playing field as all of the other aforementioned CDs. We also need to consider that the improvements we discussed, can be applied to any CD you may have in your collection including any "audiophile" CD. But, we also must consider that you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. If it's a bad sounding CD, it is probably going to stay that way no matter what you do. |
Yowza !!! I can't believe that the price on the Audio Desk's went up that much. Believe me, i did not pay that much for mine. What i did pay for it was still too much for what it is. Then again, the amount of time that it would take to build something equivalent would have to be factored in and ease of use and the convenience of having all of the bugs worked out do add up to product cost. Sean > |
Hi Sean. Yea, I'm using MSRP on the Audiodesk as an example. But, I probably paid fairly close to that amount. I purchased the Audiodesk and the Furutech from Cable company as a "package deal". If memory serves, I paid $750.00 for the both pieces. The Audiodesk included the "special hardened blade upgrade". "Special hardened blade upgrade". Tell me that doesn't sound like a load of SH@*. That's like selling a new car with the "optional tires that actually hold air". What can I tell ya? There is a bit of hype in this industry. |
Ed,I am a friend of a friend, (Aziz) I recently bought the "clean disk" and "once and done" solutions from LAT. The improvement in sound is beyond what I would have believed from a couple of inexpensive products. I am going to send for the green and the diamond in the near future. I have been using a sharpie green marker, but I have not noticed much improvement. I read recently on one of the "mod" sights that the color of green is not as important as wheather it is opaque or not. It should not be transluscent. Also, the edges should be lightly sanded to make them more opaque, and less reflective.Inside and outside edges. Our friend Dave, did a couple of discs for me awhile back, but I didn't notice much improvement at the time. However these were some of the worst recordings that I had, which is why I wanted to try something. I'd like to try again using your method. It is all for the sound of music. John |
Matchstikman: Why don't all manufacturers use the highest grade parts to produce all of their products ? The bottom line is marketability and profit margin. What most manufacturers make is considered "good enough" and built to a price point. If one wants to take things further than that, it is up to them. Sometimes the manufacturers offer "upgrades" and modifications and sometimes they don't. CD's are built / recorded / mastered to a price point and if you want to take things further, it is up to you. Not everyone is willing to pay for what you might think should be "mandatory". Sean > |
Matchstikman, Funny you should ask, but a large number of CD-R's come in green plastic, and black. I've only heard a few copies, on some of these, and they sound really good. As good or better than the originals? Can't say yet, but I'm going to do more tests. My questions: Do CD-R's sound better if they're cleaned and the mold releaser is used, on the blank and on the original? Anyone going through all of this? |
Albert: That's a good point about the "safety" concerns of "sharpened CD's". Never thought about that one but i agree that the potential is there. Especially if someone throws it at high speed : ) Iseekheils: I've actually "trimmed" some blank CD-R's using my Audio Desk Systeme before burning copies onto them. Don't know if there is any benefit or not, but at least the disc is better balanced and spins smoother : ) Sean > |
Sean, where did I say "mandatory?" True, most manufacturers don't use the highest grade products, but there are plenty of audiophile manufacturers than do; hence, some of those 50k speakers and things I see on Audiogon, right Albert? Someone is buying these things, right? Anyway, it would seem that "audiophile" quality CDs are not mass produced to start with and many of them are made as one-time, limited edition versions. I have some "audiophile" versions of certain CDs and I paid extra for these copies. Why aren't these made with the special extra stuff? And as far as someone filing a law suit because of sharp edges, blame that on the over abundance of greedy lawyers. Whatever happened to taking responsibility for your actions? |
Matchstikman, the mods that we have been doing to these discs is somewhat pushing the boundaries of the "nonconforming". I'm sure that many CD manufacturers would attempt to discourage us from doing so. Arguments ranging from removing too much of the plastic substrate to applying polishing fluids and paint to the disc. In my humble opinion, my standard redbook CDs after this process, rival my XRCDs, MFSLs etc. So, in response to your question regarding manufacturers doing these mods, they are already offering us their version of "audiophile quality". Whether we consider them audiophile quality is more than likely irrelevant to said manufacturers. I'm sure they feel totally comfortable selling us reissued discs of "audiophile quality" for over inflated prices. Why should they change? Look at this with an open mind Matchstikman. These mods really do work, contrary to what some people feel. If you would like, email me. I will provide you with my address and you can send me one of your discs, and I will be more than glad to do this process for you. Then, you can establish your own opinion. Your ears will tell you the truth devoid of any other persons opinions. |
A very old thread with lots of ideas. Here are some that I didn't see. No light goes through the disc. It all gets reflected, but the pits in the disc are 1/4 wavelength deep so that the light reflected from the bottom is 180 degrees out of phase with the light from the top surface, so there is interference, which looks like no light. In a digital error correction system, the data stream includes redundant information so that the original data can be recovered without any error, provided that the transmitted data stream error rate does not exceed that which was anticipated in design of the encoding algorithms. As I have mentioned before, modern digital transmission systems use error correction encoding so that they can be run at far higher bandwidth that that which would be necessary if error-free transmission were needed. The higher bandwidth more than makes up for the redundant data. I never clean or otherwise process CDs. Except for one disc that was defective when purchased, I have never had a disc that failed to play, on several players and DVDs. |
I have used cleaners, many....I have the Herbie audio mat - the best that I have tried, and tried several...I have then cryo'd my cd collection, a great tweak, highly recommended....then purchased an audiodesk....The improvement is well worth the investment. It is NOT subtle. You will press play and in seconds...you will hear an obvious improvement in soundstage openness, depth, its quieter and cleaner, smoother.. more resolution. Well worth it. |
many people are confused about using this so called green pen .1ST. go to any hardware store or hobbyshop buy a paint pen use any color you like. It is not the laser light that is reflected off the cd. It is the wieght of the paint on the outer edge I have been doing this for over 20 yrs. anther way of helping also is putting another Disc. on top of another, using both labels facing each other another 20 yr.Project I have been doing this but is getting more difficult with newer cd players will not leave room in the trays,but Rotel cd players work fine for this inexpensive way to get a better sound.... A great way to make your cd to sound great is to go to Radio Shack and buy a hand held demagnitizer it great I bought mine years ago it wouks better than some of those expensive units cost is around $30.00 I do this with cd"s and dvd"s also......I agree with other people it lower the noise floor and takes the edge away and music bocomes more real |
Noticeable upgrade can be had by reburning the cd on a computer on a good CDR like Taiyo yuden, or Mitsui gold (more expensive - $1 a piece). Use EAC program to reap the material into computer, and then use foobar program to resample - to make it sound better, and use window media player to burn - adjust it to burn slowely as possible. All the programs can be had for free - just google it. Plextor CDR drives are the best sounding ones. The difference is very noticeable - it almost sounds like sacd - smoother like analogue. If you have a program that resamples to 96/24, like the program that comes with Creative Zen MP3 player, you really tame that digital nastiness. The resampler in the foobar is pretty good too - if you tweak it right. Does anyone know of a program that resamples music files to 192/24 or higher? What is the best resampling program these days? *------------* Also you can fix non playing CDs with a touch of brasso and water (sold at a hardware store). |
