Geoff: Thanks for the info. I'll have some of these markers tomorrow : ) Sean
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Geoff: How can you tell if one marker color sounds better on a disc than another ? If you are applying a permanent marker, you would either have to use some type of solvent ( probably a big no-no ) or have quite a few copies of the same disc.
Can you provide a make / model and source for the cyan coloured marker ? I'd like to compare notes with others while removing as many variables as possible. I'm not against trying this stuff out as i can always "trim" the disc with my Audio Desk Systeme. Sean
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First of all, speaking from a purely technical point of view, you did nothing to dispel any myths about digital. You simply gave us your list of what you think works and why you think it works. I just wanted to clarify that the contents of your post are based purely on personal beliefs / your personal experiences and would not "dispel" or "prove" anything to anyone that came to this forum looking for "accurate techical information". The fact that i have very similar beliefs / methods of use should confirm that i did not mean this as an "attack" from a "naysayer".
As your processes go, i clean every disc that i purchase with warm water and Palmolive dish soap. I got into this habit with used discs and it has carried over to new discs. I have had this procedure make the difference between playing and not playing, simply due to removing dirt / smudged finger prints, food particles on used discs. As such, i don't bother looking at them when i bring them home, i just clean them all. This also de-stat's them at the same time if you plan on playing them right away.
I also have and use an Audio Desk Systeme "disc cutter". Should any of you want to compare the effects of this device and have a few duplicate discs, you are welcome to send me a disc or two and i'll cut them and send them back. You are responsible for shipping costs both ways though. The same thing goes for cable burning, so you can kill two birds with one stone if you send both at the same time.
As far as markering CD's goes, i do not do this nor will i ever. I have conducted a few tests doing this and the results were in favor of NOT "greening" or "blacking" discs. Read errors were increased, error correction was increased, discs that were partially readable were no longer readable at all, etc... The results that i obtained were also duplicated by Rodney Gold, moderator of the Digital Asylum over at AA. He performed digital analysis of markered and un-markered discs via links between his all digital Meridian based system and his computer. In every test, markering came back with negative effects on the performance of the system. Since increased error correction can and does alter bit count and over-all performance, the sonics of such a "tweak" will always be subtractive ( losing information ) rather than additive. As a side note, "trimming the edges" ala the Audio Desk Systeme increased read times and reduced error correction according to Rodney's tests.
As far as CD treatments such as Auric, Optrix, etc... i only use them if a disc sounds "bad" to begin with or is damaged. These treatments do increase readability, reduce error correction, etc... They also alter the sonics of the disc. As mentioned, if you have a "brash" sounding disc with a lot of sibilance ala early digital transfers, it can work wonders. Otherwise, my experience is that the leading edge of transients are softened, the music looses some of the drive or "prat", and everything sounds more "mellow". This may be good if you want to go to sleep or have a less than musical digital installation, but i find it a detraction and use it only as needed.
As far as the use of a Bedini or Furutech, etc.. type device, i do think that they work, but the results are subtle. If i've just got done washing the disc, i don't bother using any of these. Otherwise, i do use these and the end result is a quieter and cleaner background with reduced "grit" and increased liquidity.
As a side note, i had posted a link to someone that had done analysis of several different "tweaks" for CD's and all of the "CD mats" reduced the performance of the machine in terms of reduced readability, increased error correction, etc...
I've seen other reports where readability / error correction tests were performed using those "cd rings" that attach to the outer edge of discs. All of these reduced readability, increased error correction and threw the disc out of balance, increasing wear on the motors.
As such, i would suggest performing your own "digital tweaks" and judge for yourself what works and what doesn't. Just make sure that you use a disc that you are familiar with, but aren't too worried about trashing if something goes "wrong".
For the record, Auric Illuminator was able to "reverse" the effects of markering in one test that i did. While the disc had "hops, skips & jumps" in in prior to markering, adding the marker made the disc completely unreadable. Once i applied Auric Illuminator, the disc played like it was brand new with NO problems whatsoever. As a side effect though, the sonics were altered but having a disc that plays with a "softer" presentation is better than having a disc that won't play at all. Sean
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Buscis2: I posted earlier findings about the experiments that i did in another thread. For some reason, i can't find them when doing a search in the Agon archives. It basically details the same experience that i sent you via email.
As to your offer, i already have the potential to perform the same basic tasks that you do during your "digital ritual". I do appreciate your offer, but could save us both time and money by doing the same thing here. As such, i basically have done the same things here and have found that not all of the steps are beneficial as described using my specific equipment.
Herman: I don't think that you are "hijacking" anything. As far as i'm concerned, you are simply doing what these forums are all about i.e. sharing knowledge and comparing notes. I don't think that any of us are against learning something new, especially if it helps us to understand why / how audio reproduction is affected ( for better or worse ).
Having said that, i'm not very knowledgeable about laser technology. If you, or someone else for that matter doesn't mind, can you answer a few questions for us ? These are not trick questions, but that doesn't mean that other questions won't come to mind based on the answers received : )
1) Is the majority of the laser energy reflected back from the disc or is some of it allowed to pass through it to the other side ? I can understand some energy "bending" at the point of impact and "spraying out" the sides or being reflected at right angles of the reflective surface, but my main concern at this point is actual "laser penetration" beyond the disc itself. Do you know if this occurs ?
2) If "laser scatter" ( for lack of not knowing the proper terminology ) is real, what is the best way to minimize the potential for stray light to re-enter the laser ?
3) Is it possible to direct the energy found in "laser scatter" away from the laser or "absorb" said energy via altering the disc itself ?
Bare in mind that i'm not expecting "set in stone" answers, just some idea as to how / why various "tweaks" DO affect the readability of various discs. My thoughts are not so much that they change the sonics of the disc itself, but alter the amount of processing / error correction that is applied to the signal. Does this make sense ? Sean
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Good info Herman and thanks for sharing. I wonder if these "optical enhancing treatments" are actually a "clouding agent" or "coating" as you mentioned ? By that, i'm thinking that it might be possible for them to apply just enough of a "blocking coat" to minimize the less than full reflective energy that the laser would normally see and read. By blocking anything other than full intensity reflections, "laser scatter" and reflections ( which are probably greatly increased by tiny imperfections in the plastic surface ) would be minimized. That is, at least as far as what the laser is seeing and trying to interpret as data. The laser could now read the primary signal with less outside interference / delayed signal interpretation.
Once again, these are strictly "guesses" and not meant to be interpreted as how these treatments work. As Herman mentions, it would be very interesting for someone that has knowledge of laser technology with test equipment perform some tests of this nature to see just exactly is taking place. After all, the more that we know, the better and more usefully that we can apply that technology. Sean
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Herman, Viggen was right. We want optimum performance, so asking an optimologist would be our best bet : )
Don't worry Viggen, those big medical titles always confuse me too : ) Sean
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To expound upon what Buscis2 stated about the Audio Desk Systeme "cd cutter", i find that it tends to:
1) Produce a more liquid presentation. Much of the harshness and glare are removed, the sound is more "organic" and the presentation is more cohesive.
2) Detail is increased to the point of being able to understand lyrics that were previously buried in the mix. It does so without sounding etched, not in the least. In fact, it reduces "unnatural artifacts" and that is why it sounds more "liquid". One can really sense a difference in the clarity ( rise and fall ) of cymbals.
3) It sounds as if you are listening to a musical presentation, not just a bunch of notes thrown together. The flow of the music is increased yet you can still pick out all of the individual notes / instruments with ease.
4) Notes / instruments seem to come from a blacker background with increased separation and air between them.
5) I guess that some would say that it lends a more analogue quality to the digital presentation. One can be drawn further into the music with greater ease and you are less aware that you are listening to "hi-fi recording".
Having said that, i don't like to use the "cutter" on some discs. The "more liquid" presentation does not work well with "hard" music i.e. rock, metal, etc... in many cases. That is, unless the disc has poor tonal balance ( bright and edgy ) and induces fatigue when listening to it in "stock" form or the recording is very dark, muddy and murky sounding i.e. clustered, congested and hard to pick things out.
In my experience, the cutter works best on most other types of music other than hard rock, etc.. This is especially true of acoustic works. This is not to say that it is not as beneficial to Classical, Jazz, Blues, etc... but the added liquidity can really bring a small set of performers playing non-amplified instruments into your living room.
As i mentioned and Buscis2 also offers, we can cut discs for you to compare. I would HIGHLY recommend doing this prior to purchasing a machine. Some people / systems seem to be more sensitive to "disc cutting". As such, there is no sense in making such an investment unless you can tell a difference AND that difference is beneficial to your enjoyment of the music you like to listen to.
Having said all of that, i know that there are other "high profile" regulars here that have and use the Audio Desk Systeme and think very highly of it. I purchased mine a few years ago and, while it is not cheap for the task that it performs, find it to be a useful tool when it comes to naking digital reproduction more enjoyable and natural sounding. I must add that i do NOT marker the edges as they suggest in the instructions for the above mentioned reasons.
As a side note, i did pick up a cyan coloured marker and am going to give that a go on one of my "damaged test discs". I'm going to give the disc a thorough cleaning, play it in stock form and then treat the edges with the cyan marker. I'll report back with results as to whether readability is increased, reduced or remains the same as soon as i can. Sean
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Sam: I have purchased discs that were markered and / or "cut" from local music shops without even knowing it. That is, until i got them home. Quite honestly, the markered discs bothered me more than the "cut" discs for the above mentioned reasons. Obviously, someone in the Chicagoland area is performing either or both tweaks and those discs are being bought and sold via shops that offer used discs.
I also agree with your suggestion of using identical discs. While my Brother and I have quite a few of the same discs, we had a hard time finding discs that actually were identical. Many had different spacing in terms of burned vs unburned areas, etc... Since both discs supposedly contained the same amount of info, one would have to wonder if one version would be easier to read than the other or if different materials were being used to store the data. I know that the BMG's and "store bought" discs supposedly contain the same info bit for bit, none of the BMG's resembled those from the original manufacturer. Sean
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No problem Buscis. As i've mentioned, these forums should be about sharing and learning for the good of the community, regardless of who can help provide the info. I couldn't remember the exact cutting angle anyhow : )
As far as trying to duplicate the results on some type of homebrew equipment or a lathe, all i can say is be very careful. Splintering CD's would not be fun nor very cost effective. In extreme cases, it might not be very healthy either if bits and pieces of shrapnel come flying out at high speed.
As a side note, the Audio Desk unit has variable rotational speed and spins at a max of 9000 rpm. I always start off slowly and then build up speed. If you try to crank it up and then bring the cutting edge into contact with the disc, the cutting edge can either gouge the disc and / or crack it or get hung up on "casting flash" or a burr. Either way, the results are not pretty and the screeching sound will make you aware of a problem RIGHT away. I found this out the hard way when i did not clamp the disc down tight enough. The cutting edge caught the disc and held it in place while the platter continued to spin at 9 grand. As such, you have to have a very secure method of clamping the CD into place and hold it there under load while one is "trimming" the disc.
As to my "belief" in the effectiveness of the "de-magnetizing" or "anti-stat'ing" CD's, i do think that the results are audible even if they aren't measurable.
With that in mind, I would not call the results "plain as day" but i do think that the noise floor is reduced and the presentation is slightly more natural sounding. If one is to get the full benefit of such a treatment though, the plastic disc tray and mechanism that are so commonly found in most machines would also have to be "treated". Personally, i wipe down the tray and everything else that i can easily access inside the machine with "Static Guard" after applying it to a cloth. If you are going to do this, DO NOT wipe off the lubricant that might have been applied to the rails of the transport mechanism. The increased drag could result in the mechanism binding up and doing premature damage to the drawer motor. Sean
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Yowza !!! I can't believe that the price on the Audio Desk's went up that much. Believe me, i did not pay that much for mine. What i did pay for it was still too much for what it is. Then again, the amount of time that it would take to build something equivalent would have to be factored in and ease of use and the convenience of having all of the bugs worked out do add up to product cost. Sean
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Matchstikman: Why don't all manufacturers use the highest grade parts to produce all of their products ? The bottom line is marketability and profit margin. What most manufacturers make is considered "good enough" and built to a price point. If one wants to take things further than that, it is up to them. Sometimes the manufacturers offer "upgrades" and modifications and sometimes they don't. CD's are built / recorded / mastered to a price point and if you want to take things further, it is up to you. Not everyone is willing to pay for what you might think should be "mandatory". Sean
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Albert: That's a good point about the "safety" concerns of "sharpened CD's". Never thought about that one but i agree that the potential is there. Especially if someone throws it at high speed : )
Iseekheils: I've actually "trimmed" some blank CD-R's using my Audio Desk Systeme before burning copies onto them. Don't know if there is any benefit or not, but at least the disc is better balanced and spins smoother : ) Sean
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