Hi Jsawhitlock, I cannot concur with your experience of hazing with the Optrix because I have never used it. But, if other people have experienced same, maybe it's just a residual property of the Optrix? I don't know.
I would suggest throwing up a quick thread, to see how many others have had the same experience. Or, possibly contact the manufacturer?
If you do contact the manufacturer, would you let us know your findings? Good luck. |
Hi Jsawhitlock, Are you washing the CD and thoroughly drying before applying the Optrix? One of the things I had mentioned is starting off with a clean CD. I had noticed that the CD diamond left "streaks" if the CD was not washed before application. |
Hi Peterx, I use paper towels, BUT, I do not rub! I simply pat them dry between two sheets of toweling. I, one time, used a paper towel to apply and polish with the CD diamond.
I should have just used a piece of #220 Wet/Dry sandpaper.
I have found that cotton balls (100% cotton) works like a dream. Very inexpensive, readily available and do a real nice job polishing the surface treatments. |
TO HELL WITH THE NAYSAYERS ALBERT. TO HELL WITH THEM I SAY!
You know Albert? It's gonna be kind of tough for me to try to accurately discern what each actual process provides in terms of benefits, but, let me give it a whirl with the most obvious results.
Cleaning: I have never heard an audible difference with just cleaning alone although, it seems better starting with a clean CD in terms of green coating adhesion, and is easier applying the cd diamond.
Cutting: Tighter bass with more extension at the lower frequencies, slightly opens up the soundstage.
Greening: That seems to be the biggie. Much more space between instruments, quieter background.
Polishing: Reveals a higher level of detail, removes some of the "hi-fi" sound. Music tends to have a more "natural sound". Instruments tend to sound more like instruments and less like recorded instruments.
Demag: Removes any "haze", provides a much blacker background. Lowers the noise floor to reveal the most gentle musical nuances and most minute detail. The most immediate effect is the absolutely dead quiet background which is immediately noticable within the first 10-15 seconds of playback.
Just like with our turntables Albert, the effects of proper VTA, cartridge alignment, tracking force and anti-skate provide the cumulative results.
And in terms of naysayers, I have a response to them in a preemptive fashion. Engage your brain BEFORE putting your mouth in drive. |
Thank you Herman. In terms of terminology, you are right, I am wrong, and I stand corrected. And for clarification purposes, allow me to transcribe the manufacturers explanation;
"We have found that the effectiveness of the treatment is related not to the actual material of the dye or ink, but rather, to it's surface texture and to how closely the wave length of the Green is to the complement wave length of the 790 NM laser beam. A simple example is the relationship of a Blue wave length that is the exact complement to a wave length of Yellow. The Blue and Yellow will cancel each other out and what remains is Black. Black is the absence of color". |
Sutts, that sounds highly unusual, considering the first track is actually at the innermost portion of the CD. I may be able to understand if it was actually the last track and that the information was recorded that far out into the CD diameter.
I have never experienced anything like that nor have several other individuals I know that use the Audiodesk. |
Megasm, sometimes, even golden rules need to be broken. Fortunately, I have no CDs for sale as once I buy them, they become part of the "family".
I also have tried the Marigo Crossbow with excellent results. The only problem I have had with the Marigo is that some transports don't function properly with the Marigo insatalled.
Although, I find it to be extremely effective with DVDs.
And Yes, it is my understanding that the Furutech is actually more effective than the Bedini by virtue of design.
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Ahhh, I love you guys like brothers and this some great stuff, but, bottom line, are we in agreement that "Green" would be the color to use to ABSORB stray 790 NM laser light?
If not, I promise, I will hang my head in shame for having put up with all of these good sounding CDs for so long. |
Sean, go off the thread, I will email you my address, send me a disc that you have 2 copies of, and allow me to do this process for you. I will even pay the shipping back to you priority mail.
My only request is that you approach this with an open mind, no pre-conceived notions, and you post your honest impressions back on this thread. I will even replace the disc with a new one if you feel the sound has been degraded. Fair enough?
Batter up! |
Hi Elmuncy, In response to your question, I don't know if you can find an actual green marker that would provide adequate coverage and have the same color value as what I actually use. But, I may be wrong as I am unaware of any type of product like you describe.
The CD Green that I actually use is available from LAT International. You can find LAT in the Audiogon Manufacturers lookup. The actual name of the product is "Green Line". There are several similar products available from other sources that pretty much do the same thing.
It comes in a small bottle and the method of application is a pipe cleaner (believe it or not). I'm sure you can improvise and use any application method that is easy for you. Hope this helps. |
Hi Mprime, If you are considering the purchase of an Audiodesk CD cutter, do keep in mind that the Audiodesk would be simply a single step in the process. Again, if you review my original thread you will notice that I mention that the results I achieve are CUMULATIVE.
I think Sean would probably back me up on this. To just bevel the edge of the CD alone, you may not be happy with the results. Especially if you try to justify the cost of the cutter alone. The changes that you obtain by just cutting the edge are subtle, but noticable. Although, use it in conjunction with the other mods we have discussed, and the results become much more significant.
If you have a large enough collection of CDs, and you are also willing to test the results of the other mods we discussed, it may be worth the cost.
And I really don't know what you intend on buying regarding a turntable, but I think you may find that $600.00 is just scratching the surface in terms of cost. I have over 5 times that invested in my analog rig and by far, it is not state of the art, but it does a great job.
I will extend this offer to you also, if you would like, send me a CD so I may cut it for you. I would be more than willing to do so. If you desire, I will do a complete process for you. Hopefully, it would at least provide you a benchmark to use as a basis for comparison. |
Sean,I am looking forward to your findings. I also stopped at a local art store and purchased a Cyan colored marker. I have yet to try it.
But, one interesting note. I compared the color of the Cyan marker in relation to the Cd "Greenline" presently offered by LAT International. The color is almost identical. I think that the Cyan color is very slightly more "Blue", but marginally so.
I have never used any of the other "greening" products offered by other manufacturers, so I can't discern the color deviations between the LAT product and the other manufacturers offerings.
Also, I transcribed an excerpt from the LAT catalog regarding their explanation of how their product works. That excerpt discusses their product working in conjunction with a 790 NM laser.
Am I correct? Isn't a standard CD laser operating at 680 NM? If this was actually the case, wouldn't the corresponding color used for absorbtion change accordingly due to the different wavelength? |
Thank you for the clarification Geoff. And your response brings up another issue, As I have stated, I demag my CDs also as part of my process. I have noticed comments regarding CDs not having any type of magnetization properties. As you mentioned, the paint being used on CDs is part of the problem with becoming magnetized.
In many cases the paint used on CDs does contain metals in order to obtain the specific colors. That, in conjunction with the actual CD "wafer" not always being PURE aluminum, but containing trace elements, does contribute to the disc actually becoming magnetized.
The amount of magnetization would have a correlation to the amount and the color of paint used on that particular CD. Make sense?
Hopefully, this will provide additional explanations;
http://www.harmonictech.com/furutech/magic/_series.htm |
Herman, absolutely fascinating reading. Thanks for the contribution. I think many of us will find this info extremely informative. Talk about dispelling myths, I always thought that the laser was reading "pits" not "bumps".
Great stuff Herman, Thanks again, ED. |
You're a funny guy Chichiuno. Have you ever considered a "stand-up" act?
For some reason, I envision you having spent a lot of time in the principal's office when you were attending school. You did attend school, didn't you?
Either that or countless hours spent in the "little boys room" reading Stereophile (and other) magazines.
See how it all catches up? |
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Sean, May I?
Cdc, in response to your questions, in order:
:The Audiodesk preferred bevel angle is 38 degrees plus or minus 30 minutes (1/2 degree).
:There is no corner radius. Edge thickness (at the outermost portion of the CD after beveling should be approx. .025".
:Yes, it is the outside diameter only that gets cut.
:You could in fact purchase a bench lathe to perform the same operation. But you could also purchase a $300,000 Mikro Seiki CNC machining center and create a CNC command string to go along with it.
If you were to use a bench lathe you would need to fabricate a fixture to maintain flatness of the CD while the machining operation was being performed. If the CD were to deflect under the pressure of the contact of the cutting tool, The recommended 38 degree cutting angle would not be maintained.
:See my preceeding post for the CORRECT Furutech website. Sorry.
:In regards to "ferrous impurities", that is not the only contributing factor to magnetism. The Furutech site will explain further.
: I have no familiarity with "optical oils" being used in conjunction with application to the CD surface. I stress REMOVING any releases, oils or other impurities from the CD surface.
:I assume when you say you tried Novus #1, you were applying it to clean the CD's surface. Novus #2&3 are scratch removers as Novus#1 is merely a plastic polish used for plastic and or polycarbonate surfaces.
The manufacturers of most of the optical enhancers will explain that their products are "filling in" microscopic imperfections in the CD's plastic surface, enhancing light transmission of the laser reader.
Cdc, I hope this provides the clarification you requested. And Sean, I didn't mean to "butt in", but I did want to respond to Cdc's questions addressed to me, and I figured I would kill several birds with one stone.
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Hi Cdc, The bevel is applied to the data side. The label side is the larger diameter (actually unaltered diameter).
As you probably read, Furutech feels that the impurities in the aluminum in conjunction with the ferrous metals in the paint that provide the ability to become magnetized. I don't know.
I can tell you that there is a definite improvement in the sound with just using the Furutech alone.
You and I are absolute agreement on the cost of the Audiodesk @ $600.00. It's ridiculous. But then again, I also think it's ridiculous for someone to spend $6000.00 for a set of speaker cables. Yet many people do it. I personally feel that an investment of $600.00 becomes more understandable if you consider the amount of money you may have invested in your CD collection. I have over 700 CDs. figure that out at an average of $12.00 a CD.
Yes, Novus is a great product although I have never thought of using it on CDs. Hmmm. |
You're correct Albert. And if you did add the costs of all materials involved in doing a complete treatment, I have a sneaky suspicion that the total costs would be less than $ 1.00 per CD. Considering the overall improvement, I feel that it is more than justifiable. And obviously, the more CDs you actually own, the lower the cost per CD processed.
I have spent significantly more more money per CD purchasing XRCDs, MFSL CDs, and other "audiophile" CDs. I personally feel that the improvement provided by using this process, puts the average redbook CD on the same playing field as all of the other aforementioned CDs. We also need to consider that the improvements we discussed, can be applied to any CD you may have in your collection including any "audiophile" CD.
But, we also must consider that you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. If it's a bad sounding CD, it is probably going to stay that way no matter what you do. |
Hi Sean. Yea, I'm using MSRP on the Audiodesk as an example. But, I probably paid fairly close to that amount. I purchased the Audiodesk and the Furutech from Cable company as a "package deal". If memory serves, I paid $750.00 for the both pieces. The Audiodesk included the "special hardened blade upgrade".
"Special hardened blade upgrade". Tell me that doesn't sound like a load of SH@*. That's like selling a new car with the "optional tires that actually hold air". What can I tell ya? There is a bit of hype in this industry. |
Albert, I just cut myself on a modified, reissued CD of Joe Walsh "The Smoker You Drink, The Player You Get".
Now I'm bleeding all over my transport.
I will be contacting my attorney at the law firm of Ernest & Julio Gallo.
I'll show them! |
Matchstikman, the mods that we have been doing to these discs is somewhat pushing the boundaries of the "nonconforming". I'm sure that many CD manufacturers would attempt to discourage us from doing so. Arguments ranging from removing too much of the plastic substrate to applying polishing fluids and paint to the disc.
In my humble opinion, my standard redbook CDs after this process, rival my XRCDs, MFSLs etc. So, in response to your question regarding manufacturers doing these mods, they are already offering us their version of "audiophile quality". Whether we consider them audiophile quality is more than likely irrelevant to said manufacturers. I'm sure they feel totally comfortable selling us reissued discs of "audiophile quality" for over inflated prices. Why should they change?
Look at this with an open mind Matchstikman. These mods really do work, contrary to what some people feel. If you would like, email me. I will provide you with my address and you can send me one of your discs, and I will be more than glad to do this process for you. Then, you can establish your own opinion.
Your ears will tell you the truth devoid of any other persons opinions. |
