Walker Audio Extreme SST

Thank you very much Rushton for the Canola tip.
My findings are the same as yours.

Lacee, the "magic" oil one can use to refresh a jar of E-SST if it begins drying out is canola oil. But only a couple or three drops. Canola oil is NOT the base used by Walker Audio in manufacturing E-SST, but Lloyd says to use it SPARINGLY to refresh as described.

I've used SST and E-SST for more than 10 years. I notice NO degradation over time in my system (which is pretty reasonably "high resolution"). I do clean all of my contacts as part of regular maintenance about once per year, but have also waited 18 months or longer. I have never felt there has been any degradation in sound quality over time.
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"after time the sound disintegrates" so I ask, after how much time?

I've just spent quite a few months"clean",and just reapplied ESST to a couple of IC"s at the component end,not the RCA pin.

I would have to say that "clean" compared to ESST,the clean version is not as good.

The first thing I noticed was a lack of glare using the ESST.

So for awhile it seems I'll be enjoying the process.

If I have to clean the contacts and re-apply that's no big deal,like I stated, I do this twice a year.

Which is why I asked the question-how long does it take for the ESST to loose it's potency.

I really wonder if it's not just the old-"any change is a good change" setting in.

Which is when we grow accustomed to the "sound" and then do something and notice what we claim to be an improvement, but is really just a change.

Ebm and Sksos1,specifically what did you hear that prompted you to say it sounds worse after awhile ?

Also, what difference did you notice when you cleaned it off.

My take is that just cleaning the connectors a couple times a year always made for a difference in sound,even without re-applying the ESST.

That's what I have been doing for almost a year now.

But applying some ESST again, my system does sound better than without it.

I just wish I could source some of the "magic"oil.
I've got lots of the paste left over, and ,yes, I seal the cap with electrical tape.

Ebm I have to agree, initially the Walker sounds great but after time the sound disintigrates, it's not the silver but the bonding agent that holds it all together actually "furments"! I had to painstakingly remove it all and wow what a difference without.
There are agents that use a different "bonding" agent but being a dealer I can't speak to that any further.

(Dealer disclaimer)

After time sounds crappy stay away!

I've found that the ESST does work.
For me things sound more focused and full.

My problem is that I still have some left in the jar, but over the last few years I've used up my spare liquid re-fill bottle.I like to clean and apply the ESST twice a year.

I'm due to re-apply, but the jar is getting pretty dry.
I don't see anything on the Walker site showing the liquid re-fill for sale.

Any help would be appreciated.

Morris: I have no experience with Lloyd Walker's SST, but I have often used Cramolin for the electrical power connections in recording studio installations with excellent results. I also use it for connecting wires to ground stakes.

I put some Cramolin on the plugs on all of my window air conditioners at the beginning of every summer. The first year I did it, I noticed that my electric bill had decreased.

They both get you drunk & dizzy with they selling tactics.

If anyone wants a comlete story ,just ask.I hate to bad mouth John Walker but ...........?

Hi .I do have a first hand experience with Walker Audio Extreme SST. complete B.S.

Thanks for the explanations, comments, and suggestions on storing SST. I just bought E-SST. I was having problems with crackling sounds and excess noise, which I thought was coming from the tubes on my amp. I cleaned the tube pins with rubbing alcohol and applied E-SST. They are still breaking in, but my experience is consistent with the favorable responses on this thread. In addition to the standard audiophile accolades, noise was reduced dramatically and I haven't heard any of the crackling sounds. It will be interesting to see the effects on other connections in the system.

I checked Lloyd's website and he discusses gas mileage improvements from using E-SST on his motorcycle connections. Since so little of it is needed to take care of the audio connections, I'm curious if any Audiogon members have used it elsewhere in the house to improve other types of electrical connections.

Agaffer, with your system (very nice, btw), you should hear a positive difference.

Try re-cleaning your contacts with some isopropyl alcohol (to both clean off the first application of E-SST and to clean the metal surface), then re-apply the E-SST according to the instructions. For the alcohol, remember to use isopropyl that does not have any additives in it (e.g., the 92% variety).

The E-SST will have a break-in period. Early on, things may sound a bit bright, but that will pass. Break-in depends on the amount of current going through the connections: for power cords expect about 2-3 hours, for interconnects and speaker cables about 5-6 hours, for phono level signals about 20 hours.

Cheers,

I didn't clean the contacts first. What did you use to clean them with? When I have time I will repeat the process, after cleaning first.
It may well be because my system isn't very revealing. I chose ARC gear and Vandersteen 5A speakers because I like "warm" rather than revealing.

I believe that in a system in which small changes are apparent sonically, the SST/Extreme SST should produce a readily audible difference. While this may seem to be coming from a high handed perspective, I have been through extended periods where changes in cabling and the like were not discernible. At the point I am now, I would be that these products would definitely be noticeable for me.

Again, as I have stated above, I believe this product would produce a significant difference via the contact resistance of silver, which is far superior to what most high end audio components rely on - gold.

Despite all of this, and from a material perspective, I believe the case has been laid out, I personally would NEVER use it on anything beyond a loudspeaker connection.

Hi, Agaffer. Thanks for sharing your experience. I've heard from some other audiophiles that they too did not hear a difference, including some members of our local audio group. Here are two or three thoughts to share, for what they may be worth...

1) no, the E-SST does't just show positive effect because connections may be older and have some corrosion, the metal surfaces should be cleaned well before applying SST, and that's the way I've experimented with it;

2) in my experience talking with various audiophiles who've also experimented with SST, the more highly resolving a system is to begin with, the more immediately apparent will be the positive impact of the SST;

3) for me, sometimes the impact of a tweak is not apparent until I remove it from my system after it's been in the system for an extended period of time, only then do I begin noticing that I'm missing something in the sound -- kind of a reverse testing procedure.

Regards,

I sent away for ESST when I bought my system and applied it when the system was about a month old. Can't say it did anything. Maybe that was because everything, including the ICs were new and what it really does is revive the connections in systems that are old enough to have some corrosion?

Works great on fuses too!

Well folks, another happy ESST user chiming in here. I've applied it throughout my system from cartridge pins to tube pins, A/C plugs and cabling. A very noticeable improvement for me. Should have tried this one long ago. It creates a blacker background, more explosive dynamics, more apparent transient speed, and best of all, these improvements are audible across the frequency spectrum.
My advice: apply sparingly...
BTW, one jar could treat many systems. If you can't afford it, go half-sies with a buddy! Cheers,
Spencer

Well Tvad, if she took over from there, I wish you many happy returns.

Tvad, the Walker Audio SST is soluable with isopopyl alchohol and cleans very easily and thoroughly when cleaning is desired. I've used isopropyl and pipe cleaners with no problems in tight spaces, including tube sockets. At the same time, with SST, I've found that the contacts are pretty much pristine when I've disassembled to check: the SST dries and seals the contact area. (And, because it dries, it does not migrate after being applied to some other places where it ought not go.)
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Tvad, ever sucked the poison out of a snake bite? Then I think you get the picture.

It seems that SST has a much greater effect on tube based systems because there are so many connections (tube pins).
The improvement in my set based, all tube system, has been remarkable due to Extreme SST.

I applied it to all RCA and power cords a few days ago, it sounds a bit smoother and tamed brightnesss a bit, but to say it is a huge improovement is not even close to accurate,I see so many that seem to get good results from SST and god bless that they do, but some of the words used are a bit over-the-top.
It has may a subtle but positive change in my system.

p.s. Thanks Ray!

Glad to hear you liked the results, Audiofire. Thanks for the follow-up!

Just applied Extreme SST and I must say it (to my ears) has increased transparency, focus, with a tad better soundstaging and overall musicality. I haven't noticed much difference with the video side of things.Its well worth the $. Thanks Rushton.

At the advice of the A'gon member who helped me install two dedicated lines, all the electrical connections (at the service box and outlets) were treated with the stuff. Never heard them without, so I can't say if they're better because of it, but my sound is damn good!

While I found very good improvement with the video in my HT system (even on already good HD programming) after treating coax and digital IC's, I did not hear much benefit on the audio side of things.

I've used the stuff on my speaker connectors. There was definitely more bass - but it was a looser and boomier kind of bass. No go!

I've used Quick Silver on my circuit breakers and AC wall receptacles with wonderful results. It is definitely worth the time or expense, should you need to pay an electrican to do so.

Hi Audiofire5228, I've heard very positive reports from a number of people who have applied SST on their electrical connections from the circuit breakers themselves all the way through to wiring the power outlet. I haven't done it yet myself, but it's on my list to do sometime (is there ever enough time?). If I were installing my dedicated circuits now, I would have my electrician apply Extreme SST at every contact, including the circuit breakers.
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Can this be applied to contacts when installing dedicated circuits; such as between romex and my outlet?

this stuff does work,,music is coming out effortlessly ,everything just sounds better ,im using origanal.

I asked Lloyd Walker about storing and re-storing SST, and confirmed with him that he was okay with my posting the following...

For storage, Lloyd agrees with Trelja's suggestion to wrap electrical tape around the seam of the lid and jar, and to store the sealed jar in a plastic bag in the freezer.

If the SST has gotten stiff or partially dried out, Lloyd recommends taking a toothpick and stirring the material well. That will restore some of its viscosity. If the material has gotten too dry to apply, and stirring doesn't help, call or email Walker Audio. Lloyd has a recommended procedure he'll discuss with you.
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Listener57, you are very wise to bring up Saran Wrap. However, please note that Saran Wrap is a truly special product (polyvinylidene chloride - PVDC), and should never be confused with the typical polyethylene plastic wraps that you find in the same section of the supermarket. Here is an interesting, high level read on Saran http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blsaranwrap.htm

I think it would be an excellent idea to use Saran Wrap. But, again, I recommend wrapping it, or electrical tape (what we used to use, but I think Saran would be a much better material now that you have brought it up) around the area where the lid and jar meet. Do it two or three times. Putting it inside the jar will be messy, and you could get air gaps in the seal of the jar.

The reason behind the freezer recommendation is a rule of thumb chemists use, for every increase of 10 degrees Celcius, reaction rate doubles. Going with that, you can see how much more shelf life a 10 degree F (-12 C) freezer provides compared to room temperature - 75 F (24 C) via extrapolation.

Trelja, Thanks for such a thorough, personally informed presentation. It is amazing how much specialized knowledge you have conveyed to Audiogon non-techies, where we don't even know what questions to ask.
Before refrigerating, would placing Saran Wrap under the screw top lid on the jar be a bad idea, instead of outside taping? I often use this to "seal" contents, but would this accidentally promote unpredictable changes in the Walker Audio SST due to the film of wrap inside the screwed down cap?

Thank you for the kind words guys!

Actually, I want to correct something I said. Three of the four companies in the US are located in the Philadelphia, PA area. I incorrectly said the world. We had a couple of competitors in Japan and in Europe. And, one of the reasons I left the field was I saw things on the horizon in China, with us not taking agressive steps to thwart the barbarians at the gates (I am a software engineer now, and despite it not being nearly as fun, it is a much more stable, well paying career). Still, the actual number of sources for this stuff worldwide can be counted on one hand.

Again, I wish I could show everyone how dramatic the differences in resistivity were with the same resistor in terms of each conductor with an ohmeter. What I was trying to say about the ohmic contact is that the contact resistance of the meter's probes was INCREDIBLY influenced by the termination of the resistor we used. With no termination, a resistor would often read open. With gold, it could read several ohms. And, with the silver based materials, it got down to fractions of an ohm.

Not to turn this too technical, but resistivity is measured in ohms/square. So if you silk screen printed a thick film resistor, such as we would sell to Holco, Sfernice, or Vishay in a 1 mm wide by 4 mm long trace and measured 4 ohms, you would divide by 4 to obtain the resistivity - 1 ohm/square. Each of our test patterns would have a lot of redundant prints, so that we could average things to get a better insight. Of course, printed/dried/cured/fired thickness played a crucial role.

So, in total, I have no doubt that Lloyd's product has the potential to make tremendous improvements. Science is definitely on his side. The contacts of our audio equipment are pretty bad, just take a look at them. My only regret is that I am not still in the lab so that I could actually maximize the performance of this type of material. Various shapes (spheres, platelets, flake) and particle sizes (via surface area) of the silver powders used in these formulations result in very different characteristics. It would be fun to see which sounded the best.

Trelja,

Thank you for such an informative expose on this science!

Bravo.

A good recommendation is to keep the stuff in the freezer, if possible. And, ALWAYS, run around the gap where the jar meets the lid a few times with any kind of electrical tape.

Thanks for the tip, Joe. I've wondered whether some special storage for the unused material should be considered.

Trelja,

Finally, this thread became useful again.

Rob

Rush, first of all, it's exciting to know that you have reaped these types of benefits from this material!

In an ironic twist, it is fitting for Lloyd to be making this stuff. The Philadelphia area is home to three of the four companies who manufacture thick film electronic materials in the world (ElectroScience Laboratories, EMCA Remex, and Herraeus Cermalloy). The fourth, DuPont, now located in Research Triangle, NC used to be here. Most of the technology was developed by TRW, which was located in Center City Philadelphia up until the 1960s.

I used to be employed in this industry, as an R&D chemist - material scientist. It was tremendously fun and rewarding, if not a great field for me financially. I personally met up with a pair of guys who came from Limerick, near Lloyd in Audobon, who I wonder about maybe having a hand in this. It's definitely a black art, and those of us who understand are tremendously rare. I know that Lloyd is a talented, creative individual, but one just doesn't happen to get into this field, it requires ridiculously specialized equipment, which has little use outside of this sphere. Getting something right the first (or, even 4th) time, is unheard of.

I have a theory on why the improvements are so drastic. Whenever I tested a thick film resistor, I printed it on a variety of test conductors, such as silver, palladium/silver, platinum/silver, gold, etc. Invariably, the resistance of each would be drastically different from another. It was quite shocking, to be truthful. Gold was always the worst, and by a long shot, as compared to the silver bearing materials.

The lower resistance one got, from the highest concentration of silver of course, the closer one came to the true properties of the resistor - little influence from the conductor. In technojargon, this is called getting an "ohmic contact". The contact resistance of gold and/or copper is several orders of magnitude higher than silver, and the results can be heard.

I feel the SST is providing a tremendous boost in getting closer to an ohmic contact in audio components. This is quite audible as you have pointed out, and as I have experienced, easily measured.

On the cautionary sides, silver, oxidizes, but slowly(being one of the eight precious metals). Over time, the benefits of this ohmic contact will dissipate as the silver becomes silver oxide. Though silver oxide is still a fairly good conductor.

To be truthful, 45%silver/55% palladium, would be my choice for the long run, it probably has the finest stability of any electronic contact, and has proven the "gold" standard since WWII. The immediate effects, however, would not be as dramatic as silver, as it is not quite as conductive. Also, the price would be A LOT higher. Back when I used to buy, silver was $4/troy ounce, palladium started at $300, and got to be $1000/troy ounce.

Also, again, having made the stuff, there are precious few organic materials which do not break down over time. Most of these things that reside in the oxygen of our environment DO break down (typical recommendations to "real" users - GM, Ford, Fujitsu Asahi, NGK, Siemens was 1 - 2 years, depending on product. I can say you can comfortably double or triple this in most cases). Obviously, storing them in a nitrogen or reducing (5% hydrogen/95% nitrogen) is not an option, but be mindful of the myriad chemical reactions that I have personally witnessed(cross linking, "drying" - not what it sounds like, breakdown of the polymer chain, etc.) in these materials. I did quite a lot of research into prolonging shelf life(I think work that was beyond what anyone else in the industry conducted), and can say that the materials that fared the best were not in use in these applications - I'm sure that has yet to change.

A good recommendation is to keep the stuff in the freezer, if possible. And, ALWAYS, run around the gap where the jar meets the lid a few times with any kind of electrical tape.

Listener,

Yikes! Heat up coconut oil and you have varnish! I hope these products don't contain these type of oils. I can't imagine what the long term effects would be.

If anyone wishes to try this concept for less money, there is SilClear from Mapleshade Records. The website description resembles Walker Audio SST.
By tweaking the product, creating Extreme SST, Walker Audio still seems out front in the silver grease audiophile olympics quest for the gold medal.
Probably, the next frontier is a world filled with platinum, or other exotic conductors, suspended in virgin coconut oil. I'm off to my favorite health food store to begin my research and development program :>)

I recently applied the SST on my tonearm cables and cartridge pins and was surprised to hear a very positive improvement. Next up was the tonearm cable to RCA box (I own a Scout) and again noticed a similar improvement but to a slightly lesser degree, regardless it was a big enough improvement to make me a believer. I always try and make sense of this stuff and I'm sure a low output MC cartridge could benefit from this stuff at any connections along the way to the pre-amp.

I would not have believed it if I did not hear it myself, and get some friendly pressure to try it out in the first place. I for sure will use this on any other cartridge/tonearm interface that comes through my system.
One of these days I'll try it out on my amplification components.

If you do a google search on "conductive silver grease," you'll find many other products with seemingly similar claimed benefits at much lower prices. Arctic Silver is one I happened to see that guarantees real silver content. Many others do not have real silver in them, but are merely silver in color. Also, as far as I know, there is no electrical transmission over interconnects and speaker cables. I could be wrong, but I've never received a shock from handling them.
Additionally, Jonathan Scull desribed a similar product in Stereophile over three years ago:
http://stereophile.com/finetunes/396/
Finally, a friend came to me with some "silver grease," which he has used on all metal connections in his system and claims tremendously increased resolution and liquidity (of the music!). He has used it on everything from power cords to tube pins.
Also, Flitz metal polish has been recommended specifically for treating the prongs on power cords for stereo equipment for better sonics.
I'm not knocking the Walker product; in fact, I accept that it is effective as claimed. I just wonder if there are other similar (or even identical) products out there that would yield the same effect.

Some additional html tags can be added after submitting the post if you can get back in to "edit my post".
Same is true for adding pictures:


www.6moons.com/audioreviews/walker3/SST.html
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Hi Tvad, thanks for the courtesy. But what I said was that the "contents" are described in the statement I quoted from the web site; and this was in response to Ncarv's comment that he didn't have information about the contents of Walker SST. The in-house production comment is purely from me, not the web site, and is based on personal knowledge. Sorry that part was not clear.
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